Debian And WineX

fdsa writes "After a heated debate, and under some pressure by TransGaming, an 'intent to package' WineX from sourceforge CVS for (non-free) Debian has been withdrawn. The message provides a good summary of the recent Wine chaos, and notes how WineX is effectively under a different license than stated. Here's a mail from their CEO Gavriel State on the issue."

Comments

Gentoo Linux

[delta407]

Amusingly, Gentoo Linux users can install WineX with a single command. It is packaged (I assume) from the Sourceforge CVS, and given that Gentoo compiles everything from scratch, conveniently sidesteps the whole distributing binaries thing.

By the way, for fellow Gentoo users, a 2002/05/11 ebuild is currently available by "# emerge winex". Check the package list for the most recent date.

Ouch

[Dopefish_1]

2. " We would prefer not to have to change our license to explicitly prevent the distribution of binary packages, but if we have to we will do so."

Sounds like a pretty dirty move by Transgaming, if you ask me.

One argument for the GPL and against "look alikes"

[chill]

If you want it to be truely free, use the GPL license. If you don't care, then use the BSD, Artistic, X11 or what-have-you. This is a good example of what can happen.

This is why I bought a PlayStation 2 -- NOTHING is free, and I don't expect any of it to be, so I'm not disappointed. I can just sit down and PLAY GAMES without making moral decisions.

Transgaming isn't bad.

[ciryon]

Many people are mad at Transgaming because they're choosing to release their code under a non-GPL licence. People are paying to get the binary code and gets to vote for their favourite game. This might sound bad, but the thing is that they have really created something really great. The advancements have been huge. I'm still amazed to see Diablo II or new games like Solider of Fortune II or Jedi Outcast run perfectly on my Linux box.

Transgaming has also promised to give back the sourcecode to Wine. There are many obstacles, including licenced technology like SafeDisc and S3 Texture Compression (if they ever do it) but I'm sure they can overcome it.

I would guess there are now more working games for Linux than for Mac OS. That's impressive.

Ciryon

Re:Transgaming isn't bad.

[jordan_a]

Transgaming was promising to give back their sourcecode ton Wine. They've since changed their policy on that and any mention of merging with the wine tree after meeting their targets has been silently dropped from their website.

Re:Transgaming isn't bad.

[Havokmon]

Without our contributions, they will fail.

That's exactly what will happen to Wine because they refuse to support businesses, and refuse to recognize the potential for the project they ALL inherited.

There are HUGE issues that need to be addresses that will take a LOT of time. Only businesses can help make that happen before 2010.

Remember, we're talking about a 10 year old Alpha project.

Nothing "Wrong" what Transgaming are doing here...

[Jack Hughes]

... They've taken a BSD licensed piece of software, written by others, and made it there own. Well, the BSD licence says that's OK. ... But if the copyright holders are pissed off by this, they can reliscense the original. Well they were, and now Wine is under the GPL. So that's OK. ... So Transgaming should probably just simplify things and plainly state that WineX is a proprietry system... so that outside people don't get confused and submit patches to them under the illusion that it is free software or open source.

Does a proprietry WineX threaten Linux in any way? No not really. It is a system that allows proprietry windows software to run on open source/free Linux. It hardly matters quite where the free/prop. divide is drawn either above or below the middleware - the end result is that the user is running is a non-free application - although things might be a bit confused if they start sticking prop. kernel modules into Linux - but then again, there is the precedence of VMware et al for this.

So there is nothing legally wrong with what Transgaming are doing. I say let them carry on - but just clear up the confusion and plainly state that WineX is a proprietry system. If anyone's nose is out of joint then it was Wine's fault for ever being under the BSD liscense - which it isn't now.

Of course Transgamings Business Model is wrong. They should simply re-sell Windows games - either to Windows users or to Linux users bundling WineX and some installation glue a la codeweavers.

Re:One argument for the GPL and against "look alik

[psavo]

If you want it to be truely free, use the GPL license. If you don't care, then use the BSD, Artistic, X11 or what-have- you. This is a good example of what can happen.

I think you don't understand.
To be 'truely' free you should use BSD license. It basically gives your code away.
Those of us who use GPL do it to get back some fruits of our hands. I WANT that any of my modified code will come back to me.
I think BSD people are very generous, but I personally don't think I could just give my work away the way they do.

Fool me once....

[KernelHappy]

This just illustrates why its important to understand the license governing a project before contributing to it. It is also the reason why the OSI keeps a list of approved licenses.

If you didn't take time to understand the license before contributing to the project, you can't complain that you don't like the result.

reasonable request

[Ender Ryan]

I think it's a perfectly reasonable request of transgaming to ask the debian maintainers to not package a binary build of winex from their cvs repository, that could really cut into their bottom line, which, despite what so many here say, is important for a company.

People like to bitch about transgaming, but they really have done nothing wrong. They grabbed wine, used it according to the license attached to it, offered to trade code to/from the main wine tree. There's nothing wrong with that, if the wine developers didn't want their code used in that manner they should have (L)GPLed it from the start.

Similarly, if the debian crew decides to ignore transgaming's request and package winex in the distribution anyway, transgaming has nothing to complain about, but they can decide to change their license if they think they need too.

I think everyone needs a nice fine glass of STFU.

Re:What's the big deal?

[FatlXception]

They do distribute debian DEB packages along with the RPM's, but of course, these are the full, stable releases, which include non-free code like copy protection, and which you must be a subscriber to download. They're worried that if Debian distributes the compiled CVS version and calls it WineX, people who install that package may think that's all there is, without being aware of the subscription service or the extra features possible. Personally, I agree with them, and don't see what all the fuss is about. I don't see a 'big bad company' trying to muscle out the 'little guy', I see a group trying to support open source development financially, and trying to protect their interests in doing so. If you read Gavriel State's response, I think their position is perfectly reasonable.

calling it an even trade

[_|()|\|]

If WINE is not going to help Transgaming, why should Transgaming help WINE?

You're kidding, right? WINE has already helped TransGaming, to the tune of a million lines of code.

Clearing things up

[rmassa]

I think that most people here are misunderstanding the issue, and as a long WineX subscriber, I feel that I need to clarify.

WineX has _always_ been available in source form for free (meaning you can get it even if you aren't a subscriber) if you are willing and able to pull it from their CVS servers. What has never been free is their compiled code, in which they add such goodies such as safedisc and securerom support (which of course, can't be open sourced, because WineX licensed it from the companies that created the copy protection)
What Transgaming is asking is that distributions don't package the free version of their source as a package, so people don't get the impression that when they try to run new game x with copy protection that it doesn't work with the WineX period, and not actually go and check transgamings site and realize that they need to buy the commercial version. I would hope more from the average linux user, but I can see their point.
Besides, people have been tolerating this behaviour from the MPlayer project for a long time, so I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't agree with their reasons, then exercise your right to choose and don't use the product :).

Re:About time to dump Transgaming

[Cylix]

Well...

It is fine to pay programmers to do work and then sell that work for a moderate fee. However, their BASE was taken from a free project.

Of course under the old Wine license this was fine and legal. Now they have changed...

What erks me royally is the idea that Debian wants to do something that could fall quite in line with the available license and the WineX guys are throwing a fit.

I have no objections to turning a profit, but these guys seem to forget their roots.

Re:One argument for the GPL and against "look alik

[Anonymous Coward]

That does sound nice but a software project is a dynamic thing, evolving over time. Your scenerio is static, a happy snapshot where you're giving your code away and all is nice.

Lets look at the dynamic:

1.) Start project, license it as BSD
2.) Writing code, everything is nice.
3.) Code becomes popular, sizable group of developers gather.
4.) The vampires show up. Act just like regular users at first.
5.) Vampires start making making requests for you to change certain things, so their fork will work better. They promise to release patche sback to you.
6.) More vampires show up, make the same demands and promises as the proginal vampire.
7.) Your mailing list starts filling up with requests from developers who think it would be best for the project if you cooperated with vampire(x).
8.) None of the vampires have kept their promises. DEvelopers for you project are working on vampire forks.
9.) Your project is no longer popular because it has fewer features than the vampire forks. AFter all the vampire forks will always be their efforts+theirs. you can never keep up.
10.) People on your mailing list start to bitch and moan about not having feature X that they saw in vampire distro.
11.)Vampires continue to orbit. Plucking any new idea you have and not giving anything in return. Project dies a slow death and you get tired of working with it because it's not fun anymore.