Ornithopters on Mars

cloudwilliam writes "This article at Science News is reporting on how researchers at the Ohio Aerospace Institute and Georgia Institute of Technology are designing flying drones for future Mars missions that flap their wings like insects (drones...insects...get it? Right, sorry, that was bad). Apparently fixed and conventional rotary wing aircraft are impractical due to the thin air of Mars, but the light gravity makes large bug-like aircraft possible. They're calling them entomopters--from entomoi, junior high Greek for bugs with wings. Check it out." We've done lots of previous stories on aircraft for Mars exploration - until someone actually sends a mission with equipment on board, it's all speculation as to what designs might conceivably be used.

Comments

robot bugs

[tps12]

I don't know, call me old fashioned, but I think gigantor robot bugs is a bad idea.

Nice for tactical reasons

[JabberWokky]

If any of the colonists under the broad arrow get out of hand, we can simply tell Gay Deciever to execute an L-gun burn and torch their fuel supply dumps. Of course, the wogs are a bit creepy to watch working in the field, but as long as you muzzle them, they harvest the crops quite nicely, rather.

--
Evan "One of my favorite fun reads... how many SCA members decided to cross the bridge to Valhalla at the con at the end, I wonder"

Re:Nice for tactical reasons

[Yet Another Smith]

Yeah, but let's just be careful to avoid all the incestuous sex that particular reference is associated with. I really hope Heinlein didn't have any daughters.

Re:Nice for tactical reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hope Heinlein didn't have any daughters.

He didn't.

I really hope that someday you'll learn what the word "fiction" means.

Re:Nice for tactical reasons

[Mith]

Putting aside the valid reference to incestuous sex in other works, I fail to see how the above reference is one of them. How does using their ships laser to defend against attack qualify?

What do you mean by "... that particular reference ..."?

Why not simulate?

[RatOmeter]

I have a little trouble with your "it's all speculation as to what designs might conceivably be used."

Don't we already have a good idea of the density and composition of the red planet's atmosphere? If so, I would think it fairly trivial for a [government funded] interprise to setup a atmospheric test chamber; a kind of Mars Wind Tunnel for exercizing thin wind flyers.

Re:Why not simulate?

[Cmdr Taco (luser)]

According to this Earth's average atmospheric pressure is about 1013 mBar, whereas on Mars it's about 8 mBar. Mars' atmosphere is 95% CO2. From there, you may work out the potential for aerodynamic lift, but I'll say, it's quite small. More static methods of lift, such as hydrogen balloons, might be of greater potential, especially when you consider that flammability is less of an issue with air that's 95% CO2.

I honestly don't think that low speed aerodynamic flight is achievable on Mars, but I agree that we have enough data that there shouldn't be much left to guess.

Re:Why not simulate?

[fries]

Two conditions need to be simluated.

1. atmospheric pressure
2. gravity

You cannot neglect either or the simulation would be hard to gauge.

Think of a huge flapping creature in our gravity. You wouldn't
expect it to take off. Then try removing atmospheric pressure,
and you wouldn't give it a chance.

Re:Why not simulate?

[vrt3]

The author of the X-Plane flight simulator, Austin Meyer, hacked it to simulate flying on Mars.

Quite an interesting read. Some excerpts:

I DID POSSIBLY THE MOST EXCITING THING I HAVE EVER DONE TONIGHT. (OK, technically I finished it THIS MORNING). As some of you may know, I have been gathering data on Martian atmosphere, gravity, surface "texture", and topography for X-Plane from various NASA sites (http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/mola.html, for example).

...

(Could I be the first human to fly a real-time flight simulaton of Mars? I have seen many "movies" of "flying" over Mars terrain, but NONE have been hooked to an actual realistic FLIGHT MODEL... has NASA done a REAL-TIME simulation of Mars flight in a PILOTED aircraft? Has ANYONE?) Well, I have for the last 6 hours, AND IT IS FRIGGIN FASCINATING.

...

So what sort of planes can fly on Mars? Not anything from Earth, that's for sure. Not enough lift or thrust. A Cessna or Boeing will just sit there on the ground without even moving. Put them in the air and they drop like beveled bricks with no wings. Both of my Mars-plane concepts are much like the U-2 Spyplane (designed to operate at around 100,000 ft, in simlar density air) one with a HUGE high-bypass jet engine built AROUND THE FUSELAGE, and another with a smaller rocket engine in the tail, like the X-15. The rocket plane has a lower-thrust engine, with plenty of fuel, for about 30 minutes of flight or so... the JET plane can fly for hours!

Re:Why not simulate?

[Anonymous Coward]

less air, sure, but less gravity also. What about something with really, really big wings, that can fly high and slow, constantly, maybe covered with solar cells on top. The thing could fly as long as it works, maybe for months or years.

The article did say that fixed wing craft are fine except for speed and takeoffs/landings. Big wings might help the speed issue, and the lower gravity should make possible wings that would be weak or snap off here on earth. As for takesoffs and landings, perhaps the lander could launch the thing as it decends, maybe with small, disposable rocket boosters at first so the craft gets to lift speed asap and then keeps flying until it ceases to function.

Seems kinda simple - thinner air == bigger wings. Maybe even something with ridiculously large wings, think a normal airplane body with stationary butterfly sized wings.

Re:Why not simulate?

[shrikel]

I have a little trouble with your "it's all speculation as to what designs might conceivably be used."

I don't think he's saying we don't know what will work, I think he's saying that it's just a lot of dreaming until somebody actually puts one of these (all probably feasible) pieces of equipment into a rocket and takes them there. I'm sure there are lots of things that would work, but until one of them is on its way to Mars, it's all speculation as to what will actually be used.

Re:Why not simulate?

[DavidTC]

What about something with really, really big wings, that can fly high and slow, constantly, maybe covered with solar cells on top. The thing could fly as long as it works, maybe for months or years.

While I hate to punch holes in this, you can't combine solar cell flight and slow flight, because of, duh, nighttime. ;)

Re:Why not simulate?

[Cmdr Taco (luser)]

Thank you very much for that link. I'd like to quote another apropos section if I may...

"Bottom line: All airplanes on Mars are AIRBORNE TITANICS: Ripping blissfully along, unaware of their impending doom due to their inability to TURN against their tremendous inertia.

Landings are impossible without arresting gear. If you can work the flare out right (it IS possible with advance planning) then you will touch down doing about 400 mph. Now how do you stop?

That, and other portions, support my earlier statement that low speed aerodynamic flight is problematic. OTOH, perhaps the "flapping insect" designs can generate the lift necessary. If so, I suspect they'll had to flap as quickly as a hummingbird.

Re:Why not simulate?

[Hellkitten]

You can, if you can make batteries light enough. I have no idea if it's possible right now, but by the time we start landing on mars battery technology is likely to have advanced further.

Ornithopters: All things Dune

[Anonymous Coward]

Frank Herbert was more of a visionary than even he knew.

Been there, done that

[jaydho]

"until someone actually sends a mission with equipment on board, it's all speculation as to what designs might conceivably be used."

Been there, done that. You can too.

Re:I wonder

[Nickovsky]

0 colorless mana of course!!!

This was super-cool...

[FortKnox]

...seven months ago!!

I warned you ...

[Vinnie_333]

I warned you about the giant metalic bugs ... But you all thought I was CRAZY ... ha ha ha a haha ... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ........

Loads of historical fun!

[Ashurbanipal]

Wouldn't it be cool to see how many pre-industrial flying machine designs would or wouldn't work on Mars?

A Leonardo da Vinci design that you can get a kit for.

Or how about one of these things?

'Course, there might be a shortage of lumber on Mars, what with the lack of trees and all. We'd have to be sure to bring lots of supplies.

Flyers based on bees

[Target Drone]

Discovery.com also has an interesting article about creating Mars aircraft based on bees.

What ?

[Guignol]

What horny troopers on Mars ??
damn !

cosultation

[Cyno01]

knowing that nasa will probably end up making giant bugs measured in cubits and rods, maybe they should consult these kids on ornithopters http://members.tripod.com/ornitech

Re:cosultation

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.nesail.com/Ornithopter/parkhawk.htm

They Can!

[lommer]

Not only can they do computer simulations, they apparently already have a "mars-chamber" for testing rotary winged aircraft:

"NASA researchers, too, are exploring Martian helicopter design. This spring, Larry A. Young of the Army/NASA Rotorcraft Division at NASA Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif., and his colleagues have begun testing the aerodynamic performance of other prototype Martian rotor blades. The tests take place in a vacuum chamber more than 6 meters across. The researchers have also begun building pared-down models of whole rotorcraft, which they plan to test for lift and other performance features."

Since these proposed entomopters are only the size of a bird, they should fit nicely inside this 6x6 metre chamber. Now, all they would need to do is simulate the gravity change, which may be possible by vectoring gases upwards within the chamber...
Then again, maybe that wouldn't work at all. :-)

Space Propulsion Engine - New

[geekster_2000]

Space Propulsion Engine for Flying Saucer - New Physics

Rumor in Silicon Valley -

Inventor of 3D volume holographic optical storage
shopping his concept for Space Propulsion Engine
using Propellantless Mass to US and other countries.

for further look at biography background goto

http://colossalstorage.net

he is working in top secret and he says no physicist or scientist
he has ever studied or researched had this approach and knows his
concept will work to give near light speed travel thru Galaxy with
500K/Miles per Hour to start or 138 miles/sec. Nasa fastest time
are 25,000 mile/hr or 3.9 miles/sec

he says it is a mankind first concept !!

cost issues

[Magius_AR]

Hey, at least it's cheap.
Should cost 0 mana :)

Magius_AR

Re:cost issues

[zeus_tfc]

Hey, at least it's cheap.
Should cost 0 mana :)

Yeah, but who wants a wimpy 0/2?

All the designs might conceivably be used...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the speculation is about which designs will *actually* be used.

balloons

[Anonymous Coward]

why not balloons with an even less dense gas (?) that float around with little solar powered propellers?
Could they be inflated in orbit and dropped into the atmosphere?

-Cowering Anonym

Landing Strips

[genkael]

Remember that there won't be landing strips for quite a while on Mars, so a VTOL (Vertical TakeOff and Landing) concept must be used. The Ornithoper er entothoper (or whatever) might be the answer.

NASA, They Screw up !

[geekster_2000]

I saw this 10 million dollar device wouldn't work !

The scientist showing me around was astonished
and said " you're right, we found out three
years after building it " NASA isnt as smart as
they lead YOU to believe !

Here is something I find more interesting.

Space Propulsion Engine for Flying Saucer - New Physics

Rumor in Silicon Valley -

Inventor of 3D volume holographic optical storage
shopping his concept for Space Propulsion Engine
using Propellantless Mass to US and other countries.

for further look at biography background goto

http://colossalstorage.net

he is working in top secret and he says no physicist or scientist he has ever studied or researched had this approach and knows his concept will work to give near light speed travel thru Galaxy with 500K/Miles per Hour to start or 138 miles/sec. Nasa fastest time are 25,000 mile/hr or 3.9 miles/sec

he says it is a mankind first concept !!