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Palm m100s - A Pattern of Defects?
"I took it home and started playing with it. The Windows Palm desktop software installed and worked fine, the HotSync cradle did what it was supposed to do, and I happily started filling up the address and date books using the stylus. Only a few hours after I started using it, the display started acting up. The lower-left corner of the touch-screen started becoming insensitive and inaccurate. Not only were the neatest attempts at Graffiti input reduced to unrecognizable scrawls (using the Graffiti tutorial to trace out what the unit thought I was writing on the screen), but buttons on the screen above the input area were being activated (despite my going nowhere near them with the stylus). Repeated attempts at recalibrating the digitizer, as well as both a soft and hard reset, failed to fix the problem.
A quick search of Google Groups yielded several threads about this issue from others experiencing the exact problem. These experiences were also confirmed by negative reviewers at CNet. Some of them went back and forth with either Palm or the retailer with multiple replacement units, none completely working and defect-free.
Having had my m105 for less than 14 days, I promptly took it back to Office Depot for another one, which they were cheerfully willing to do. The second one worked just fine except that the top power button was inoperative! I was almost willing to live with this (as I could turn it on via other buttons, and have it automatically turn off), but the power button also controls the backlight and the hard reset. Based on my experiences with two defective units, and the bad experiences others have had going through both replacement and repair with Palm, I'm wasn't sure that I wanted to try a third. I took it back for a refund (also cheerfully done, and with apologies).
Obviously my experiences are not unique or even rare. Furthermore, repeated attempts to fix the problem via replacement or repair are not successful. Is this just a poorly-engineered and manufactured product to meet a price-point? Have there been quality control problems at their new assembly plant in Mexico (Previously all Palms were made in the United States)? Should I just forget about trying to get a low-priced starter Palm for the time being?"
I'm currently enjoying my Sharp Wizard 770. It has 3 MB of space and syncs with a PC. You can load programs on it just like most PDA's. The built-in keyboard is nice and responsive. The only drawback is a monochrome screen, but it has a nice electroluminescent backlight. I bought mine more than a year ago for about $80 and it works perfectly for me. Maybe it's not a fancy gadget with cellular modem options, etc. , but it does a very nice job for a low-end PDA.
rather pleazed with mine, yeah i still have yet to put linux on it but i us it as my mp3 player in the car, as well asa nice color screen, have even found some nice graphics utils that similar to photoshop ( humm think i am a graphix nut? ) as well as i get to play my favorite fps's :)
I've owned a Palm V and a Plam Vx; both have been rather durable and pretty reliable, although I have noticed that, as they get older, you have to continually recalibrate the "digitizer" (the touch sensors in the screen are calibrated by tapping on top of a target placed at two corners and then the center of the screen), otherwise there seems to be some "drift." Still, this is manageable.
I would not be at all surprised to see growing pains of this kind as the company attempts to cut costs in order to move into new markets and increase profitability.
I hope that the negative attention they're getting will force them to improve; while far from perfect, I like their work, and hope they continue to stick around.
For an ordinary person looking for a PDA but not interested in shelling out $3-600 for an all singing all dancing 8 hour battery life Windows CE wonder, I'd recommend going on half.com or ebay and snapping up a Palm V or Vx. These can be had in perfect condition for about $60 and $100, respectively. I guess they don't make 'em like the used to - but the older models are still excellent PDAs - palm's virtue (and curse) has always been keeping things simple, so little has changed over the years.
-David
We're on the road to Tycho.
I have owned a Palm IIIe for about 3 years and it has worked flawlessly-no crashes or hardware problems. I love it and haven't even thought about replacing it with a new model.
Handsprings, from my experience are the most reliable PDAs. Everyone I know who has one loves it and never has a problem with it. I'm also prone to playing with PDAs on display in Staples and such, and the Handspring models are always functional. I can't say the same for any other brand. Handspring PDAs are also the most stylish.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
About two and a half weeks ago, I took receipt of a refurbished Sony Clie PEG-N610C. It cost me $239 + shipping for a 320x320 16-bit color screen and overall a very high quality device. The case is aluminum and it has a nice, attractive flip cover that protects the screen.
Since I've owned it I've "dropped" it twice. Once I knocked it out of the hotsync cradle and onto the floor about 3 feet below. No damage. The second time I brushed it against my leg while I was walking and it went spinning out onto the ground. Again, no damage. My brother dropped his Visor off the kitchen counter and shattered his screen. It you are looking to be a little more budget and don't need/want a color screen, I would recommend the PDA my roommate has, the Sony PEG-T415 (320x320 B&W, 8mb, around $200) or the Sony PEG-S320 (160x160 B&W, 8mb, around $150).
Why Sony you may ask? While they are a bit more expensive that a lot of PDAs, the 320x320 screen on the 415 and the color models is gorgeous and they all are well built and snug in their aluminum cases. They also have Li-Ion batteries that charge when they are on the cradle (although mine has a slick system where the charger plugs into the cradle normally, but can be plugged directly into the unit and used as a travel charger) so you don't have to buy batteries for it.
Anywho, enough advertising. I don't work for Sony, I've just been very happy with their PDAs. Clearance Club is where I got mine and they have quite a few refurbished B&W models still.
I did quite a bit of research on PDA forums and such and had pretty bad luck finding anyone who had bad things to say about the 610 I got, and so far, I'd have to agree with the good things everyone had to say about it. Everyone I show a high res picture to just ooo's and ahh's and is incredulous when I told them I paid under $250 for it.
-Sokie
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Where are the slash-groupies? I distinctly remember being promised slash-groupies!
Palm.com refurbished store.
Oddly enough, I have never had a problem with a refurbished Palm device (even the ultra-old 3Com Pilot I bought long ago worked like a charm until I ditched it voluntarily). I know it seems counterintuitive, but maybe the best bet now is to go with something that has already broken once in the past (and has now been fixed and extensively retested by Palm). Plus, the refurbished devices can be half as expensive.
At the moment only the m500, m505, and Vx are available in the refurbished section, but sometimes older (and even cheaper) equipment pops up.
4-star general in a one-man army.
The m505 is not the answer. Geek.com had the folloing story about the m505 having problems with its USB hotsync. Here is the article.
FWIW, my trusty PalmIIIx which is several years old sports a "made in malaysia" sticker.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
I got my Handspring (The most basic model, 2M memory) for around $100 over a year ago. It's been sturdy and held up well, and is expandable.
Fry's Electronics even sells refurbs for good prices for the Deluxe's (8M mem) and some of the later models.
I still use my Handspring, and am waiting to see the direction of the product lines before jumping up to a high priced/performance unit.
I stayed away from the M series because they just seemed too low end.
Me - Professional Computer Geek
I received a Palm m105 from a friend who got his free with a Dell computer. I first noticed that the display pad was always out of sync with the stylus. Even more, the calibration utility with the Palm did not work -- it kept going in a constant loop. After posting to a couple forums and trying out some freeware calibration programs, I just decided to call Palm up.
They were very helpful with the problem and gave me instructions on sending the unit in. Within 2 weeks I had a brand new m105 that works perfectly.
As most of the forums already say, there definately is a defect problem with the 105's. It sucks, yeah, but because Palm handled my situation smoothly, I'm not too mad about it.
Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
I've only had problems with my Psion Revo+. It now sits unused in a drawer because I can't trust data to it. It will randomly die from lack of power after any time between 1 and 4 hours of (intermittent) use.
Luckily I also have a PalmIIIx which just plain works.
I kind of liked the Revo but even as a light user, I expect my devices to last more than a couple hours after six hours of charge.
From what I've gathered on Usenet, battery problems are extremely common on those machines. If you are one of the lucky few, they are great, but if you're considering getting one, it's far safer to forget about it.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Warning about the m505 unit:
Palm accidentally shipped the wrong cradle for some m505's. If you own one, make sure you have the model E or H cradle.
Using the wrong cradle will make your palm unable to hotsync via cradle.
My 1000 series has survived many horrors and still works to this day, even though it has been deligated to my 10 year old daughter as a toy.
my PalmIIIx also has worked perfectly. accepts drops without a complaint, and never gives me fits or operation errors except when I tried to upgrade it to Palm OS 4.1... I downgraded back to 3.53 after the asenine bloat they stuffed in 4.1 (I never knew you could slow a palm device down to the speed of a Windows CE device... 4.1 does it well...)
I have noticed that the newer M series looked rather cheaply made... smaller screen (WTF is up with that?) and my next purchase will not be a palm device but a Sony as they seem to be the ones that picked up the ball and are creating the quality palmos based devices...
Older ones are bullet proof..
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
... an HP Jornada 547. Before you flame the pure living crap out of me for running WinCE, hear me out.
It is the best OS I have ever ran a PDA under. Hell, it beats a lot of OSes on the PC even. I have yet to see it completely crash to the point where I need to reload it (I've had it for a little over a year), which is something I can't say for Palm. I also have no problems hardware wise, nothing is insensitive, and it works perfectly fine for me! That, and I like color. I dislike Palm due to previous problems with their hardware AND OS.
--- Ãther SPOON!
As for an inexpensive organizer they are the best! Got my from $144 from Sparco.com, and it is the PDA I have been looking for ever since I got my PalmPilot (yes, the original 1/2MB version). My handwriting is horrible, so the keyboard is perfect! :)
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"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." - Phil. 1:21 (KJV)
The cool thing about technology (or uncool, depending on how you look at it) is that the absolute top of the line, most expensive tech toy out there, after a year, isn't. This means that you can hop onto ebay, or your favorite surplus website and look at those formerly spendy Palm V, or iPaqs.....I just got an iPaq 3600 last month for $200. The screen is awesome and the price can't be beat. If you take a step back and look and the differences between the newer units and those from a year (or two) ago, there really hasn't been THAT big of a reason to upgrade.
The first iPaqs ran at 209Mhz.....guess what the brand new ones run at? Yup, 209Mhz.
The Cassiopeia E-200 line of PocketPCs had a similar problem. It seems the first batch of units produced had a faulty sidelight where it would burn out, usually within 2 weeks. This happened to about 75% of the first batch of units, and I was unlucky enough to get one of those. I exchanged it for a new one and have had no problems with it, but am waiting for it to burn out once the warrantee is up...
Casio has been very responsive about this issue and issued a new batch of units which do not have this problem. However, it just makes me wonder, do companies beta test their hardware any more? This sidelight burnt out on the defective batch usually within 14 days, under normal usage. Does this mean that they don't even beta test their products this long?
I'd say my experience with all PDAs has been bittersweet. I had a Palm Vx and an OmniSky modem, which held up wonderfully, schlepped it to and from school from 6th to 8th grade. I truly hated the OS though, and I still do. Graffiti is wretched, a true pain to learn, because it doesnt adapt to you, you adapt to it. Plus it was monochrome, which isn't fun at all. But it kicked ass over everyone else's PDA at the time, which only showed up in 8th grade, all of which were little Handspring Visors, the low-end ones. In essence, a Palm is a very sturdy thing, but you pay a premium for it (an insane amount compared to PocketPC, in terms of what you get). I now have a CompaqHP iPaq 3650. I've had it since August, got it for my freshman year at my school. Along with a dual-expansion pack and a Toshiba hard drive, I haven't had too many problems. I've dropped it, had other people drop it, and there have been no problems in the way of it falling on the floor, with the exception of a hard drive failure about 3 months ago. The PocketPC OS is much nicer tho. As far as maintenance goes, the Palm takes the cake, it's pretty much indestructible when left alone. A PocketPC however, falls apart no matter what you do to it.
The hardware put out by palm has a history of problems. The 505 sync problem is the latest in a long history (the 515 was released just to fix this.) You can read about the 505 problem at this site.
Their customer service is also famous for losing returned palms, dropping orders off the face of the earth, and just generally makin unhappy customers even more unhappy. Just check out google groups on this, and you'll find tons of legit complaints against this company.
This OS is ok, however. The hardware just plain sucks.
> HP still makes some good products (plotters, high end LJ)
;)
Qualify that as *high-end* plotters, as well.
Working at a tiny architectural firm (2-3 people, depending on the workload), we finally bought a low-end HP plotter so that I could control CAD output in-house. It was a very substantial purchase for such a small firm, but critical to moving our productivity out of the nineteen-eighties. We even paid a bit more for the low-end HP compared to other companies' higher-end but less expensive offerings, because my technophobe boss was unwilling to try anything unproven and the HP plotters I'd used in previous offices had been reliable workhorses.
Well, the other plotters I'd used weren't HP's *low-end* models. It went from adequate to spotty to unreliable to completely dead within a week. HP had on-site technicians in the office for over a month wrestling with the machine before they finally gave up and shipped us a high-end replacement model to compensate for our troubles.
Of course, that higher-end model wasn't designed to run off of our six-year-old plot server, but it took me about a week to diagnose the undocumented buffer underruns. I ended up bringing in my own laptop to use as our full-time plot server: ten-year IT life cycles can be obnoxious.
In a two-person office which bills clients hourly, every hour I had to sacrifice to troubleshooting and negotiating my way through HP's support labyrinth was a significant hit on productivity. The month and a half that our full years' IT expenditure sat dead on the floor did not make the boss a happy man. In the end, he swore off HP and CAD for good.
Oh yeah, and me too. Anyone in northern California need an architect?
Is this part of the economic factor? After all, if your system was lasting forever, companies would have some problem justifying their investor that they can sell you stuff only once.
I bought a PowerPC laptop back in 1995 and I could beat on the keyboard, not use a bag to carry to class, sit on it, almost anything it would take. Last year, I got a TiBook: first week, the return key broke, the next day, I hold the machine, the battery felt off the machine (while working), the screen had 5 bad pixels when I got it and the sticker feet on the bottom left the machine one at a time (without mentioning keys that scratch the screen, heat that burned my laps and locking system that doesn't work anymore.) Overall, a beautiful machine when you see it in an ad. But not built too last.
A friend of mine has still an HP-41C in perfect working condition (made 20 years ago.)
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
You can configure the backlight to use an upward pen swipe in the "Button" preferences
In my department, two HP 4100 series printers died within a week of purchase.. "fuser error". One 1100 series decided to just up and die for no reason. A third 4100 has developed random roller noises, that are likely a sign of things to come.
Our main 8550 printer has never worked right, random print speed issues, resolved by using older/incorrect drivers that don't actually use any of the features you would buy an 8550 for. And no matter what driver you happen to pick, if there is paper in the manual feed tray, it will claim paper jam until you pull the paper out, and put it back in....for every single sheet. It will then print from the manual feed tray, regardless of what you choose in the print driver. Turning off manual feed entirely allows it to print from the correct try by default, but anyone wanting to use manual feed then has to turn it back on themselves. This operation, naturally is buried as the last option in the paper handling menu. In other departments, their two year old (4550 series?) printers jam when anything tries to pull from tray three. This is a problem with 6 of the 6 printers that they ordered.
Is it really that hard to make hardware that actually works correctly any more? Seriously, these printers aren't cheap, and if we have to send back EVERY printer that comes into us for repair at least once, it really can't be saving them all that money. They could at least make them so they break 1 month out of warranty, like everything else. At least then we get something that works for a solid year, rather than random downtime while things get sent back and forth. Spare laser printers aren't exactly one of those things you keep laying around.
And their driver support just keeps getting worse. HP 3100 combo fax/printer/copier thingy? no XP drivers downloadable from their website, you have to order the CD containing them. All we use is the print functionality, they could at least toss a 3 meg printer driver up, even if they are contractually bound from posting the software that lets you use full functionality. Same for their webcams. I have Photoshop, just give me a small twain compliant driver, and I'll be happy, I don't need Hippy Dippy Bed Bath and Fun Image Manipulation Program to come with it.
Meanwhile, our printers bought prior to 1997 all are still working, without a peep, and with no service whatsoever, other than toner changes and paper refills. Screw you HP, and screw anyone who looks like you.
Why do we keep buying their crap? I work for an edu that apparently has a contract with them. Spectacular.
I had one of the original Palm 1000s (which I later upgraded to be the equivalent of a professional for the extra memory), and then later a Palm 5000 (also upgraded), and now a Palm IIIc.
I use my Palm extensively, to the point of actually wearing through 3 pieces of tape that I placed over the graffitti area to protect it. (I used it as a notetaking device all the way through university, including math and engineering classes). I had it on 8 hours a day, taking notes.
My first Palm still works, although I felt its graffitti recognition started to get less accurate (and I wanted new software...) so I sold it to a friend (who still uses it). The case also cracked (this was a well known problem) and the battery cover often came off.
My second Palm became obsolete when I won the colour one in a contest, so I gave it to my aunt who is a doctor (and she still uses it extensively as well). It was still in pretty good shape, although I had a sticky button problem due to too many games of Pacman. The graffiti recognition on this model was still fine.
My colour Palm is pretty good, although the battery doesn't last anything like as long as the first two (only about 3.5 hours of continuous use). However, it's also doing a lot more, so I don't mind, and I'll admit that my continuous use these days tends to be games more than just using the memo editor. I'm also out of university, so battery life doesn't matter to me as much anymore... And it's pretty sturdy. It also doesn't seem to have the disintegrating case problem of the other two. On the negative side though, it (and many of the other newer Palms and Handsprings that I've tried out) is a LOT more sluggish in its responses - and that is a very bad thing for graffiti accuracy. I have to be much more precise in my writing, and can't go as fast because it doesn't seem to respond as well as the older models.
All this to say that I've so far been quite impressed with how well the Palms have lasted under the kind of abuse I've thrown at them. I've dropped them (luckily no screen damage) and left them outside accidentally in the winter - this is a pain, because the display freezes (and is useless until it warms up), without any problems.
Yes, there were the odd problems (sticky buttons, the graffiti area crapping out and the case cracking are the big ones that cropped up in newsgroup discussions), but I never personally encountered them in such degree that the Palm wasn't useful, and some of the problems were avoidable or fixable. (Eg glue for the case, protecting the graffiti area with tape, not pounding the buttons...) And I did notice that the gentler people are with them, the better they last - one friend had no end of issues with graffiti because he was pressing extremely hard on the screen, and his buttons stuck all the time. He sold it, and the next person had no trouble at all with it, because they had a much lighter touch!
Actually, I'm pretty impressed with the fact that the Palm 1000 is still living a useful life more than five years later... Given this kind of history, I think it's a little unfair to say that all Palms are "shoddily built".
I do think that the software is becoming a little less reliable (in particular the general sluggishness of the OS).
Anyway, my two cents.
So much for the folks saying "you get what you pay for".
I have had problems with Palm too....
One day, while trying to take notes in class, I dropped my Palm IIIxe on the floor and broke the screen. (Whooooops.) Because I had the Palm folding keyboard that worked with the III series but not the newer models with their redesigned cases, I opted to pay Palm $100 to fix my unit rather than to go buy a new one. So I sent my device back, and a week later I get the exchange unit. I then threw some batteries in it and stick it in my backpack, and then when I go to use it two days later it doesn't turn on because the batteries are dead. I figured that the case I had it in was pushing one of the buttons and didn't really think much of it at the time, but after several more sets of dead batteries I did some testing and found that the device would run down batteries in 12 hours while sitting turned off in a drawer. Hard resets and a different brand of battery didn't fix it, so off it went back to Palm for another exchange...
One week later, the second replacement arrives. In go the batteries, and I even install a fresh copy of the Hotsync software for Windows and sync with that instead of using KPilot to restore my old data. Same problem - 12 hours later, turned off in a drawer, dead batteries. So I call up Palm again and explain my situation, and they say to do another exchange, and when I asked what I could do if the new unit had the same problem they told me I could call corporate headquarters "using the number from the website." Thankfully, the third replacement worked.
So in the end, in order to have a $100 repair performed on my Palm, I had to pay the $100, plus $5 in tax, $10 three times for return shipping and $8 for a 12 pack of batteries from the rat shack. Total of $142. Plus it took a month and three trips to the post office. Rather inconvienient, and not exactly a ringing endorsement of Palm's quality control...
Palm devices (and Handspring, btw) are manufactured by a company called Flextronics, one of the big 4 in outsourced manufacturing. Palm devices are manufactured in Flex Malaysia and in Guadalajara, Mexico. Flextronics sources material and handles end of line manufacturing quality. The only exception to this for Palm was the VIIx was made in a Flex facility in Fremont, I don't know if this applies to the 705.
In any case, where many people rail about the quality of Company X's products, these days it is highly likely that Company X didn't have anything to do with making the product other than designing it. And in this age of "badge engineering" of electronics, that's not even necessarily true, as someone mentioned with the IBM WorkPad. The objective of outsourcing the manufacturing function is ultimately managing the companies stock price, not pleasing the customer. By offloading headcount and very expensive capital facilities like factories, companies try to make their return on invested capital look better.
However, someone other than Company X now actually controls the customer's "out of box" experience. If they do this poorly, they eventually will have to eat the cost of returns and perhaps lose Company X's manufacturing business, but the loss of future sales caused by the customer's poor experience falls on Company X. And the contract manufacturer is large and has many other companies to live on, while Company X probably has a relatively small set of products, which now may have acquired a reputation for poor quality. Company X's sales drop and their stock (symbol: PALM) drops below $2...
Ultimately the consumer is the loser, since as I mentioned, it is possible that a product area has ALL of the branded companies using contract manufacturing, possibly even the SAME manufacturer.
I believe that using contract manufacturing for consumer systems ultimately is a loser for the companies involved since it is very difficult to avoid large batches of poor quality goods from reaching customers. So if, for example Sony, apart from being innovative with its designs, still does its own manufacturing, I think it will win share down the road, while companies that hit lower price points with inferior product will be eliminated, unless they can figure out how to create "disposable" products and do the heavy marketing needed to establish such a concept.
Palm devices have a half life of about 6 months for me, but they're too damn useful to live without, so I keep buying 'em.
The buttons would probably last longer if I didn't play Galax.
I play Nerd-Folk!