Palm m100s - A Pattern of Defects?

An Anonymous Coward writes about his experience with a brand-new Palm: "Having a few years experience watching co-workers scratching out Grafitti on their little palm-sized toys and being reminded of appointments by musical ring-tones, I decided to take the plunge. More of a dip into a wading pool, as I chose the Palm m105. It was inexpensive enough ($149), and the 8 MB of memory seemed a more prudent choice over the tiny 1 MB in the $99 m100. My experiences quickly turned from elation to dread, however." This is the story of a piece of hardware's inexplicable degradation within 14 days. I thought we were making hardware better than this, but over the past few years, this is becoming more the rule than the exception. Is hardware issue limited to Palm, a case of bad manufacturing of a specific product, or a sign of things to come?

"I took it home and started playing with it. The Windows Palm desktop software installed and worked fine, the HotSync cradle did what it was supposed to do, and I happily started filling up the address and date books using the stylus. Only a few hours after I started using it, the display started acting up. The lower-left corner of the touch-screen started becoming insensitive and inaccurate. Not only were the neatest attempts at Graffiti input reduced to unrecognizable scrawls (using the Graffiti tutorial to trace out what the unit thought I was writing on the screen), but buttons on the screen above the input area were being activated (despite my going nowhere near them with the stylus). Repeated attempts at recalibrating the digitizer, as well as both a soft and hard reset, failed to fix the problem.

A quick search of Google Groups yielded several threads about this issue from others experiencing the exact problem. These experiences were also confirmed by negative reviewers at CNet. Some of them went back and forth with either Palm or the retailer with multiple replacement units, none completely working and defect-free.

Having had my m105 for less than 14 days, I promptly took it back to Office Depot for another one, which they were cheerfully willing to do. The second one worked just fine except that the top power button was inoperative! I was almost willing to live with this (as I could turn it on via other buttons, and have it automatically turn off), but the power button also controls the backlight and the hard reset. Based on my experiences with two defective units, and the bad experiences others have had going through both replacement and repair with Palm, I'm wasn't sure that I wanted to try a third. I took it back for a refund (also cheerfully done, and with apologies).

Obviously my experiences are not unique or even rare. Furthermore, repeated attempts to fix the problem via replacement or repair are not successful. Is this just a poorly-engineered and manufactured product to meet a price-point? Have there been quality control problems at their new assembly plant in Mexico (Previously all Palms were made in the United States)? Should I just forget about trying to get a low-priced starter Palm for the time being?"

Comments

That's really too bad

[DaveWood]

I've owned a Palm V and a Plam Vx; both have been rather durable and pretty reliable, although I have noticed that, as they get older, you have to continually recalibrate the "digitizer" (the touch sensors in the screen are calibrated by tapping on top of a target placed at two corners and then the center of the screen), otherwise there seems to be some "drift." Still, this is manageable.

I would not be at all surprised to see growing pains of this kind as the company attempts to cut costs in order to move into new markets and increase profitability.

I hope that the negative attention they're getting will force them to improve; while far from perfect, I like their work, and hope they continue to stick around.

For an ordinary person looking for a PDA but not interested in shelling out $3-600 for an all singing all dancing 8 hour battery life Windows CE wonder, I'd recommend going on half.com or ebay and snapping up a Palm V or Vx. These can be had in perfect condition for about $60 and $100, respectively. I guess they don't make 'em like the used to - but the older models are still excellent PDAs - palm's virtue (and curse) has always been keeping things simple, so little has changed over the years.

-David

Handspring

[Apreche]

Handsprings, from my experience are the most reliable PDAs. Everyone I know who has one loves it and never has a problem with it. I'm also prone to playing with PDAs on display in Staples and such, and the Handspring models are always functional. I can't say the same for any other brand. Handspring PDAs are also the most stylish.

spend a little more and get a quality product

[Sokie]

About two and a half weeks ago, I took receipt of a refurbished Sony Clie PEG-N610C. It cost me $239 + shipping for a 320x320 16-bit color screen and overall a very high quality device. The case is aluminum and it has a nice, attractive flip cover that protects the screen.

Since I've owned it I've "dropped" it twice. Once I knocked it out of the hotsync cradle and onto the floor about 3 feet below. No damage. The second time I brushed it against my leg while I was walking and it went spinning out onto the ground. Again, no damage. My brother dropped his Visor off the kitchen counter and shattered his screen. It you are looking to be a little more budget and don't need/want a color screen, I would recommend the PDA my roommate has, the Sony PEG-T415 (320x320 B&W, 8mb, around $200) or the Sony PEG-S320 (160x160 B&W, 8mb, around $150).

Why Sony you may ask? While they are a bit more expensive that a lot of PDAs, the 320x320 screen on the 415 and the color models is gorgeous and they all are well built and snug in their aluminum cases. They also have Li-Ion batteries that charge when they are on the cradle (although mine has a slick system where the charger plugs into the cradle normally, but can be plugged directly into the unit and used as a travel charger) so you don't have to buy batteries for it.

Anywho, enough advertising. I don't work for Sony, I've just been very happy with their PDAs. Clearance Club is where I got mine and they have quite a few refurbished B&W models still.

I did quite a bit of research on PDA forums and such and had pretty bad luck finding anyone who had bad things to say about the 610 I got, and so far, I'd have to agree with the good things everyone had to say about it. Everyone I show a high res picture to just ooo's and ahh's and is incredulous when I told them I paid under $250 for it.

-Sokie

Re:spend a little more and get a quality product

[Sokie]

I think the key problem in my brother's case was that it landed directly on a corner. The case of the PDA stopped while the screen continued in motion for a short distance and hit a support post inside the case, causing the classic "star pattern" fracture radiating out from one corner of the screen (and making the digitizer completely non responsive). Don't get me wrong, I think Visor makes a pretty good product, but I like the design and dimensions of my Clie alot better.

Re:spend a little more and get a quality product

[nathanh]

Since I've owned it I've "dropped" it twice. Once I knocked it out of the hotsync cradle and onto the floor about 3 feet below. No damage.

Your cradle is probably in the study or bedroom, which is likely carpetted.

The second time I brushed it against my leg while I was walking and it went spinning out onto the ground. Again, no damage.

Spinning in what way? If it spins the right way then it would avoid sharp impact, even if hitting concrete.

My brother dropped his Visor off the kitchen counter and shattered his screen.

And the kitchen is tiled, right?

Your anecdotal story is interesting but it's doesn't prove anything. Both the CLIE and PALM use glass and they both run the risk of dying even from sudden short falls (1-2 foot) onto hard surfaces. It really depends on how they fall, what edge they hit first, and how high they bounce.

Re:spend a little more and get a quality product

[Sokie]

If you'd read some of the subsequent messages under this thread you'd notice I did extrapolate a bit on my brother's Visor. When I knocked mine off the cradle it was onto very cheap, old, dorm room carpet which is about as soft as the wall. There is no pad under it and it really is about as hard as the concrete underneath.

But you really misinterpreted my opinion, I wasn't trying to present a weak, anecdotal example as evidence that Visor's are obviously inferior and break at the slightest instance of abuse. At least, I don't recall making that assertion anywhere.

Of course it's possible for a Clie screen to break, but just saying they both use glass and therefore have an equal risk of breaking from a drop lacks logical merit even more than my anecdote. Perhaps one manufacturer mounts the screen inside the case differently. Perhaps the flex undergone by a plastic case tweaks the screen in such a way as to cause fracture more often. Perhaps the higher g-force shock created by a metal case makes dropping a Clie more likely to create a quantum singularity.

Typically comments and opinions expressed publically, especially in a forum like slashdot, are anecdotal examples of a person's experience. That's what I gave. I'll readily admit that I haven't spent 18 months researching the durability of every make and model of PDA available. Nor have I forensically analyzed the likely causes of fracture in dozens of PDA's with broken screens.

I personally believe that Clie's are physically built a little better than Visor's, based on the visible componenture and the relative heft of the units. But I don't really have any evidence to back this up besides anecdotal accounts. If someone wants to send me a bunch of Visors and Clie's (even dead ones so long as they are physically in good condition), I'd be happy to bash, drop, smash, and jar them equally and come up with some empirical evidence as to who makes a more durable PDA. But until then, anecdotal is the best I can do, that's why I didn't say anything about who made a more durable PDA in my first post.

Whew...better stop now before the ghosts of my argumentation teachers completely take control of my body.

-Sokie

Refurbished is better than new

[yardgnome]

Palm.com refurbished store.

Oddly enough, I have never had a problem with a refurbished Palm device (even the ultra-old 3Com Pilot I bought long ago worked like a charm until I ditched it voluntarily). I know it seems counterintuitive, but maybe the best bet now is to go with something that has already broken once in the past (and has now been fixed and extensively retested by Palm). Plus, the refurbished devices can be half as expensive.

At the moment only the m500, m505, and Vx are available in the refurbished section, but sometimes older (and even cheaper) equipment pops up.

My experience

[auximini]

I received a Palm m105 from a friend who got his free with a Dell computer. I first noticed that the display pad was always out of sync with the stylus. Even more, the calibration utility with the Palm did not work -- it kept going in a constant loop. After posting to a couple forums and trying out some freeware calibration programs, I just decided to call Palm up.

They were very helpful with the problem and gave me instructions on sending the unit in. Within 2 weeks I had a brand new m105 that works perfectly.

As most of the forums already say, there definately is a defect problem with the 105's. It sucks, yeah, but because Palm handled my situation smoothly, I'm not too mad about it.

Older units are rock solid....

[Lumpy]

My 1000 series has survived many horrors and still works to this day, even though it has been deligated to my 10 year old daughter as a toy.
my PalmIIIx also has worked perfectly. accepts drops without a complaint, and never gives me fits or operation errors except when I tried to upgrade it to Palm OS 4.1... I downgraded back to 3.53 after the asenine bloat they stuffed in 4.1 (I never knew you could slow a palm device down to the speed of a Windows CE device... 4.1 does it well...)

I have noticed that the newer M series looked rather cheaply made... smaller screen (WTF is up with that?) and my next purchase will not be a palm device but a Sony as they seem to be the ones that picked up the ball and are creating the quality palmos based devices...

Older ones are bullet proof..

Re:Diamond Mako/revo plus

[Ryan Kirkpatrick]

The batteries are only an issue if you do not follow the initial charging instructions. The first time you charge the batteries, you must completely charge them for something like 12 hours. Don't stop when the guage says full, keep charging them for the specified time. This calibrates the battery meter, otherwise you end up with what everyone else reports as bad batteries. If you did not do this the first time, do a hard reset and then follow the instruction, it should restore your Revo to working order.

As for an inexpensive organizer they are the best! Got my from $144 from Sparco.com, and it is the PDA I have been looking for ever since I got my PalmPilot (yes, the original 1/2MB version). My handwriting is horrible, so the keyboard is perfect! :)

Re:Hardware HAS gone to hell

[matthewmichaelagee]

> HP still makes some good products (plotters, high end LJ)

Qualify that as *high-end* plotters, as well.

Working at a tiny architectural firm (2-3 people, depending on the workload), we finally bought a low-end HP plotter so that I could control CAD output in-house. It was a very substantial purchase for such a small firm, but critical to moving our productivity out of the nineteen-eighties. We even paid a bit more for the low-end HP compared to other companies' higher-end but less expensive offerings, because my technophobe boss was unwilling to try anything unproven and the HP plotters I'd used in previous offices had been reliable workhorses.

Well, the other plotters I'd used weren't HP's *low-end* models. It went from adequate to spotty to unreliable to completely dead within a week. HP had on-site technicians in the office for over a month wrestling with the machine before they finally gave up and shipped us a high-end replacement model to compensate for our troubles.

Of course, that higher-end model wasn't designed to run off of our six-year-old plot server, but it took me about a week to diagnose the undocumented buffer underruns. I ended up bringing in my own laptop to use as our full-time plot server: ten-year IT life cycles can be obnoxious.

In a two-person office which bills clients hourly, every hour I had to sacrifice to troubleshooting and negotiating my way through HP's support labyrinth was a significant hit on productivity. The month and a half that our full years' IT expenditure sat dead on the floor did not make the boss a happy man. In the end, he swore off HP and CAD for good.

Oh yeah, and me too. Anyone in northern California need an architect? ;)

Same for Apple

[pinkpineapple]

Is this part of the economic factor? After all, if your system was lasting forever, companies would have some problem justifying their investor that they can sell you stuff only once.

I bought a PowerPC laptop back in 1995 and I could beat on the keyboard, not use a bag to carry to class, sit on it, almost anything it would take. Last year, I got a TiBook: first week, the return key broke, the next day, I hold the machine, the battery felt off the machine (while working), the screen had 5 bad pixels when I got it and the sticker feet on the bottom left the machine one at a time (without mentioning keys that scratch the screen, heat that burned my laps and locking system that doesn't work anymore.) Overall, a beautiful machine when you see it in an ad. But not built too last.

A friend of mine has still an HP-41C in perfect working condition (made 20 years ago.)

PPA, the girl next door.

Map the backlight to the pen

[golo]

You can configure the backlight to use an upward pen swipe in the "Button" preferences

My Palm service experience

[jkovach]

I have had problems with Palm too....

One day, while trying to take notes in class, I dropped my Palm IIIxe on the floor and broke the screen. (Whooooops.) Because I had the Palm folding keyboard that worked with the III series but not the newer models with their redesigned cases, I opted to pay Palm $100 to fix my unit rather than to go buy a new one. So I sent my device back, and a week later I get the exchange unit. I then threw some batteries in it and stick it in my backpack, and then when I go to use it two days later it doesn't turn on because the batteries are dead. I figured that the case I had it in was pushing one of the buttons and didn't really think much of it at the time, but after several more sets of dead batteries I did some testing and found that the device would run down batteries in 12 hours while sitting turned off in a drawer. Hard resets and a different brand of battery didn't fix it, so off it went back to Palm for another exchange...

One week later, the second replacement arrives. In go the batteries, and I even install a fresh copy of the Hotsync software for Windows and sync with that instead of using KPilot to restore my old data. Same problem - 12 hours later, turned off in a drawer, dead batteries. So I call up Palm again and explain my situation, and they say to do another exchange, and when I asked what I could do if the new unit had the same problem they told me I could call corporate headquarters "using the number from the website." Thankfully, the third replacement worked.

So in the end, in order to have a $100 repair performed on my Palm, I had to pay the $100, plus $5 in tax, $10 three times for return shipping and $8 for a 12 pack of batteries from the rat shack. Total of $142. Plus it took a month and three trips to the post office. Rather inconvienient, and not exactly a ringing endorsement of Palm's quality control...

Other Palms have similar problems

[GlenRaphael]

I've gone through a Palm Pro (screen stopped working reliably due to a loose connector being jiggled by stylus insertion), a Palm III (dropped it on the floor, the screen broke), a Handspring Visor (plugged in a camera card one day and the device just died and wouldn't wake up again), a Palm Vx (most of the buttons stopped working and the touchscreen alignment was off), and a Palm V (power button broke, two of the other buttons broke as well). Today I'm going to order a Clie.

Palm devices have a half life of about 6 months for me, but they're too damn useful to live without, so I keep buying 'em.

The buttons would probably last longer if I didn't play Galax.