Palm m100s - A Pattern of Defects?

An Anonymous Coward writes about his experience with a brand-new Palm: "Having a few years experience watching co-workers scratching out Grafitti on their little palm-sized toys and being reminded of appointments by musical ring-tones, I decided to take the plunge. More of a dip into a wading pool, as I chose the Palm m105. It was inexpensive enough ($149), and the 8 MB of memory seemed a more prudent choice over the tiny 1 MB in the $99 m100. My experiences quickly turned from elation to dread, however." This is the story of a piece of hardware's inexplicable degradation within 14 days. I thought we were making hardware better than this, but over the past few years, this is becoming more the rule than the exception. Is hardware issue limited to Palm, a case of bad manufacturing of a specific product, or a sign of things to come?

"I took it home and started playing with it. The Windows Palm desktop software installed and worked fine, the HotSync cradle did what it was supposed to do, and I happily started filling up the address and date books using the stylus. Only a few hours after I started using it, the display started acting up. The lower-left corner of the touch-screen started becoming insensitive and inaccurate. Not only were the neatest attempts at Graffiti input reduced to unrecognizable scrawls (using the Graffiti tutorial to trace out what the unit thought I was writing on the screen), but buttons on the screen above the input area were being activated (despite my going nowhere near them with the stylus). Repeated attempts at recalibrating the digitizer, as well as both a soft and hard reset, failed to fix the problem.

A quick search of Google Groups yielded several threads about this issue from others experiencing the exact problem. These experiences were also confirmed by negative reviewers at CNet. Some of them went back and forth with either Palm or the retailer with multiple replacement units, none completely working and defect-free.

Having had my m105 for less than 14 days, I promptly took it back to Office Depot for another one, which they were cheerfully willing to do. The second one worked just fine except that the top power button was inoperative! I was almost willing to live with this (as I could turn it on via other buttons, and have it automatically turn off), but the power button also controls the backlight and the hard reset. Based on my experiences with two defective units, and the bad experiences others have had going through both replacement and repair with Palm, I'm wasn't sure that I wanted to try a third. I took it back for a refund (also cheerfully done, and with apologies).

Obviously my experiences are not unique or even rare. Furthermore, repeated attempts to fix the problem via replacement or repair are not successful. Is this just a poorly-engineered and manufactured product to meet a price-point? Have there been quality control problems at their new assembly plant in Mexico (Previously all Palms were made in the United States)? Should I just forget about trying to get a low-priced starter Palm for the time being?"

Comments

No kidding, I'm not the only one?

[webslacker]

My IBM C3 (a rebranded Palm V) has gone all to hell. The digitizer in the screen has to be recalibrated almost every two days now! Sometimes I can't even reach the menu bar to recalibrate the digitizer because the sensor is so far off!

Re:Me & My Palm

[bugg]

Using a PDA to woo the ladies? Yeaaaah. Good luck with that. Tell me how that works out, mmm'kay?

That's really too bad

[DaveWood]

I've owned a Palm V and a Plam Vx; both have been rather durable and pretty reliable, although I have noticed that, as they get older, you have to continually recalibrate the "digitizer" (the touch sensors in the screen are calibrated by tapping on top of a target placed at two corners and then the center of the screen), otherwise there seems to be some "drift." Still, this is manageable.

I would not be at all surprised to see growing pains of this kind as the company attempts to cut costs in order to move into new markets and increase profitability.

I hope that the negative attention they're getting will force them to improve; while far from perfect, I like their work, and hope they continue to stick around.

For an ordinary person looking for a PDA but not interested in shelling out $3-600 for an all singing all dancing 8 hour battery life Windows CE wonder, I'd recommend going on half.com or ebay and snapping up a Palm V or Vx. These can be had in perfect condition for about $60 and $100, respectively. I guess they don't make 'em like the used to - but the older models are still excellent PDAs - palm's virtue (and curse) has always been keeping things simple, so little has changed over the years.

-David

Re:Cheap means cheap

[LinuxInDallas]

Regardless of the cost of the device I would hope that if you buy a Palm device it should be reliable. Sure, it may not have the features of it's bigger brothers but starting to fail on the same day you buy it is just not acceptable. If there are this number of devices that are failing so quickly you can be assured that Palm most likely knew about it during the development and protoyping phase. They must have decided that putting out a piece of crap is fine as long as they can still make a buck off it. Let's face it,a lot of us are still choosing Palm based on their name and past success. Time to look at someone else.

Handspring

[Apreche]

Handsprings, from my experience are the most reliable PDAs. Everyone I know who has one loves it and never has a problem with it. I'm also prone to playing with PDAs on display in Staples and such, and the Handspring models are always functional. I can't say the same for any other brand. Handspring PDAs are also the most stylish.

spend a little more and get a quality product

[Sokie]

About two and a half weeks ago, I took receipt of a refurbished Sony Clie PEG-N610C. It cost me $239 + shipping for a 320x320 16-bit color screen and overall a very high quality device. The case is aluminum and it has a nice, attractive flip cover that protects the screen.

Since I've owned it I've "dropped" it twice. Once I knocked it out of the hotsync cradle and onto the floor about 3 feet below. No damage. The second time I brushed it against my leg while I was walking and it went spinning out onto the ground. Again, no damage. My brother dropped his Visor off the kitchen counter and shattered his screen. It you are looking to be a little more budget and don't need/want a color screen, I would recommend the PDA my roommate has, the Sony PEG-T415 (320x320 B&W, 8mb, around $200) or the Sony PEG-S320 (160x160 B&W, 8mb, around $150).

Why Sony you may ask? While they are a bit more expensive that a lot of PDAs, the 320x320 screen on the 415 and the color models is gorgeous and they all are well built and snug in their aluminum cases. They also have Li-Ion batteries that charge when they are on the cradle (although mine has a slick system where the charger plugs into the cradle normally, but can be plugged directly into the unit and used as a travel charger) so you don't have to buy batteries for it.

Anywho, enough advertising. I don't work for Sony, I've just been very happy with their PDAs. Clearance Club is where I got mine and they have quite a few refurbished B&W models still.

I did quite a bit of research on PDA forums and such and had pretty bad luck finding anyone who had bad things to say about the 610 I got, and so far, I'd have to agree with the good things everyone had to say about it. Everyone I show a high res picture to just ooo's and ahh's and is incredulous when I told them I paid under $250 for it.

-Sokie

Re:spend a little more and get a quality product

[Sokie]

I think the key problem in my brother's case was that it landed directly on a corner. The case of the PDA stopped while the screen continued in motion for a short distance and hit a support post inside the case, causing the classic "star pattern" fracture radiating out from one corner of the screen (and making the digitizer completely non responsive). Don't get me wrong, I think Visor makes a pretty good product, but I like the design and dimensions of my Clie alot better.

Re:spend a little more and get a quality product

[nathanh]

Since I've owned it I've "dropped" it twice. Once I knocked it out of the hotsync cradle and onto the floor about 3 feet below. No damage.

Your cradle is probably in the study or bedroom, which is likely carpetted.

The second time I brushed it against my leg while I was walking and it went spinning out onto the ground. Again, no damage.

Spinning in what way? If it spins the right way then it would avoid sharp impact, even if hitting concrete.

My brother dropped his Visor off the kitchen counter and shattered his screen.

And the kitchen is tiled, right?

Your anecdotal story is interesting but it's doesn't prove anything. Both the CLIE and PALM use glass and they both run the risk of dying even from sudden short falls (1-2 foot) onto hard surfaces. It really depends on how they fall, what edge they hit first, and how high they bounce.

Re:spend a little more and get a quality product

[Sokie]

If you'd read some of the subsequent messages under this thread you'd notice I did extrapolate a bit on my brother's Visor. When I knocked mine off the cradle it was onto very cheap, old, dorm room carpet which is about as soft as the wall. There is no pad under it and it really is about as hard as the concrete underneath.

But you really misinterpreted my opinion, I wasn't trying to present a weak, anecdotal example as evidence that Visor's are obviously inferior and break at the slightest instance of abuse. At least, I don't recall making that assertion anywhere.

Of course it's possible for a Clie screen to break, but just saying they both use glass and therefore have an equal risk of breaking from a drop lacks logical merit even more than my anecdote. Perhaps one manufacturer mounts the screen inside the case differently. Perhaps the flex undergone by a plastic case tweaks the screen in such a way as to cause fracture more often. Perhaps the higher g-force shock created by a metal case makes dropping a Clie more likely to create a quantum singularity.

Typically comments and opinions expressed publically, especially in a forum like slashdot, are anecdotal examples of a person's experience. That's what I gave. I'll readily admit that I haven't spent 18 months researching the durability of every make and model of PDA available. Nor have I forensically analyzed the likely causes of fracture in dozens of PDA's with broken screens.

I personally believe that Clie's are physically built a little better than Visor's, based on the visible componenture and the relative heft of the units. But I don't really have any evidence to back this up besides anecdotal accounts. If someone wants to send me a bunch of Visors and Clie's (even dead ones so long as they are physically in good condition), I'd be happy to bash, drop, smash, and jar them equally and come up with some empirical evidence as to who makes a more durable PDA. But until then, anecdotal is the best I can do, that's why I didn't say anything about who made a more durable PDA in my first post.

Whew...better stop now before the ghosts of my argumentation teachers completely take control of my body.

-Sokie

Refurbished is better than new

[yardgnome]

Palm.com refurbished store.

Oddly enough, I have never had a problem with a refurbished Palm device (even the ultra-old 3Com Pilot I bought long ago worked like a charm until I ditched it voluntarily). I know it seems counterintuitive, but maybe the best bet now is to go with something that has already broken once in the past (and has now been fixed and extensively retested by Palm). Plus, the refurbished devices can be half as expensive.

At the moment only the m500, m505, and Vx are available in the refurbished section, but sometimes older (and even cheaper) equipment pops up.

I've got quite a bit of experience with this

[FallLine]

Having deployed a couple hundred Palm M100 and M105s at work, I can say with certainty that the M100, and to a much lesser extent, the M105 have a problem with defective manufacture (something around 5% it seems) but are also of generally poorer construction than all other Palms. I dislike this, but I feel it is unfair to compare this series of Palm to other manufacturers because they're first generation devices and they're one of the few modern PDAs that are designed to enter the sub-100 dollar price range. All other Palms in my experience (from the IIIs, to the V series, and so on) are exceptionally reliable when you consider the amount of abuse they withstand. It's really an apples and oranges comparison. If you're willing to spend the same amount of money on a Palm as you are on the other handhelds, you can get as good, if not greater, quality.

We get what we pay for

[JanneM]

Everybody want to get the best possible deal whenever we buy something. This goes not only for electronics, but for all big-ticket items: homes, cars - you name it. When it comes to most stuff, we have at least a vague idea that quality costs, and is worth having. We don't usually get the car with the lowest sticker price; we get the one with the best balance between perceived mechanical reliabilty, guarantees and price - features being equal.

But with electronics - specifically computers and related devices - we tend to act differently. We have an idea that all machines are about equal in qwuality; they tend to use the same components from the same factories, after all. Instead we have a sheet of performance figures (this much memory, that many MHz and so on), and try to find the seller with the lowest price for what we want to have.

What we forget is of course that quality still matters. There are a lot of ways to make a functionally identical item more or less reliable and long-lasting. But by focusing on price and ignoring quality issues for so long we have been digging our own graves. If a manufacturer is to compete (and not just become a niche operator or go extinct), he needs to cut corners wherever he can. You get circuit boards manufactured by the cheapest possible technology, soldered together by the lowest bidding contractor that still barely meet very minimal standards, and pack it together with iffy, electrically noisy power supplies and/or the cheapest rechargeable batterypacks money can (or can't ) buy. Then you install it into a case that's made to be cheap and easy to assemble, but that's barely adequate to hold the package together - and totally inadequate to protect the package from the wear and tear that will be the norm for the unit. The thing works when brought out of it's box, but that's about it.

Consider this: Let's say Palm had two models. they are identical, functionally - feature by feature, they are twins. One, however, is built to last, with a thicker glass substrate, a sturdier case, better solderings, sturdy metal contacts, 'real' key switches and so on. It's still not 'ruggedized' by any means, just a lot better at handling the daily grind. It also costs another $50 or so over the other unit. Which one will be the big seller, and which one will mostly collect dust in the showroom?

/Janne

Hardware HAS gone to hell

[dr_funk]

I am an authorized HP repair tech and they are a prime example of the downturn in product quality. Just the other day I worked on a HP Jaserjet 4SI. This printer and never been serviced and all it needed was the routine maintinance kit (fuser, transfer roller, paper pickup rollers). The amazing thing is was this printer had a mfg. date of 1992!
Fast forward to the next day. I have a client to whom we sold 4 new HP Netserver LP 1000r (HE wanted them, we only reccomend compaq servers). First 2 we sold him were of a batch where the SCSI cables were so cheap that if you disconnected them, they were hosed (HP Tech told me that). So when I installed the optional NetRAID controller I basically killed the cable (one died in service, we are going to go ahead and replace the other).
Now onto the 2nd batch we sold them. One of the NICs in one of the servers started dropping packets. Then is slowly degraded until it died completely. HP doesn't send out a new main board, they send the core module (mb & case. Everything but the procs, ram, and HDs). We transfered everything to that unit. Dead. Returned that unit, ordered another. That was dead too. Still haven't got this server fixed and we are back to working on it monday. HP doesn't have a clue of what's wrong, they just want me to order 5 parts on a warranty claim (there goes our proformance metric).
If you have ever used a DeskJet 600 series you know that HP is making some crap. Likewise if you have ever used a LaserJet 1100.
HP still makes some good products (plotters, high end LJ), but the difference between now and 10 years ago is painfully obvious. And, I suppose, the difference with other companys is the same.
Write in and tell your stories.

Re:Hardware HAS gone to hell

[matthewmichaelagee]

> HP still makes some good products (plotters, high end LJ)

Qualify that as *high-end* plotters, as well.

Working at a tiny architectural firm (2-3 people, depending on the workload), we finally bought a low-end HP plotter so that I could control CAD output in-house. It was a very substantial purchase for such a small firm, but critical to moving our productivity out of the nineteen-eighties. We even paid a bit more for the low-end HP compared to other companies' higher-end but less expensive offerings, because my technophobe boss was unwilling to try anything unproven and the HP plotters I'd used in previous offices had been reliable workhorses.

Well, the other plotters I'd used weren't HP's *low-end* models. It went from adequate to spotty to unreliable to completely dead within a week. HP had on-site technicians in the office for over a month wrestling with the machine before they finally gave up and shipped us a high-end replacement model to compensate for our troubles.

Of course, that higher-end model wasn't designed to run off of our six-year-old plot server, but it took me about a week to diagnose the undocumented buffer underruns. I ended up bringing in my own laptop to use as our full-time plot server: ten-year IT life cycles can be obnoxious.

In a two-person office which bills clients hourly, every hour I had to sacrifice to troubleshooting and negotiating my way through HP's support labyrinth was a significant hit on productivity. The month and a half that our full years' IT expenditure sat dead on the floor did not make the boss a happy man. In the end, he swore off HP and CAD for good.

Oh yeah, and me too. Anyone in northern California need an architect? ;)

My experience

[auximini]

I received a Palm m105 from a friend who got his free with a Dell computer. I first noticed that the display pad was always out of sync with the stylus. Even more, the calibration utility with the Palm did not work -- it kept going in a constant loop. After posting to a couple forums and trying out some freeware calibration programs, I just decided to call Palm up.

They were very helpful with the problem and gave me instructions on sending the unit in. Within 2 weeks I had a brand new m105 that works perfectly.

As most of the forums already say, there definately is a defect problem with the 105's. It sucks, yeah, but because Palm handled my situation smoothly, I'm not too mad about it.

True with just about any product

[Peyna]

I think this is true with just about any product. Electrical devices are probably even more susceciptible to defects/damages during processing. For example: We had an iPaq at my place of employment that worked fine for about a week, and then the screen went dead. It would come on, then fade out and disappear, no matter what we did we couldn't fix it; ended up having to get it replaced under warranty.

The same is true with other products, such as vehicles. Any given vehicle may actually be repaired or have parts replaced, etc. many times before it leaves the assembly line, and even while it is out in the lot at the factory. The auto industry, or at least the factory where I worked seemed to have a much better way of dealing with this; and defects found after leaving manufacturing were at a minimum.

Maybe the electronics industry just needs to rehaul some manufacturing processes and defect detection and correction. I've had my share of bad motherboards, monitors, and other parts to deal with it. The cost to them in repairs must be pretty high. Although, it would be nice if they would pick up shipping costs at more places for warranty work. I don't have to pay anything at all except price in gas to get my car to the dealer to get it fixed; why should I pay to ship back a defective product to get it replaced?

Older units are rock solid....

[Lumpy]

My 1000 series has survived many horrors and still works to this day, even though it has been deligated to my 10 year old daughter as a toy.
my PalmIIIx also has worked perfectly. accepts drops without a complaint, and never gives me fits or operation errors except when I tried to upgrade it to Palm OS 4.1... I downgraded back to 3.53 after the asenine bloat they stuffed in 4.1 (I never knew you could slow a palm device down to the speed of a Windows CE device... 4.1 does it well...)

I have noticed that the newer M series looked rather cheaply made... smaller screen (WTF is up with that?) and my next purchase will not be a palm device but a Sony as they seem to be the ones that picked up the ball and are creating the quality palmos based devices...

Older ones are bullet proof..

Re:Diamond Mako/revo plus

[Ryan Kirkpatrick]

The batteries are only an issue if you do not follow the initial charging instructions. The first time you charge the batteries, you must completely charge them for something like 12 hours. Don't stop when the guage says full, keep charging them for the specified time. This calibrates the battery meter, otherwise you end up with what everyone else reports as bad batteries. If you did not do this the first time, do a hard reset and then follow the instruction, it should restore your Revo to working order.

As for an inexpensive organizer they are the best! Got my from $144 from Sparco.com, and it is the PDA I have been looking for ever since I got my PalmPilot (yes, the original 1/2MB version). My handwriting is horrible, so the keyboard is perfect! :)

Re:Cheap means cheap

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Yeah, and if people just starting to use your product line have a VERY bad experience, what are the chances they'll be interested in buying the more expensive stuff you want to sell?

His "dip into a wading pool" resulted in a shark attack.

I don't think he's going to go that route again.

Either he'll go to a competitor, or just forget about PDAs entirely.

Palm Vx

[rosewood]

I have and love my Palm Vx and it kills me that its no longer on the market. It is slim and efficient. I love the charge on the cradle and 8megs is more then enough for my palm. It kills me that when I service plan this Vx, I will no longer have a Vx. Oh so sad - teardrop, teardrop.

Ive gone from Palm IIIe, IIIxe, Vx and none of them have ever given me major fits. My little sister uses the m100 we got for free, my mother and mother in law use the IIIxe, my fiance the Vx, my aunt the m505 and my uncle the m500. We all LOVE all palms and have never had any major hardware problems. My aunt even dunked her Vx in a toilet and it worked okay for a few more weeks, then we service plan'd it.

Same for Apple

[pinkpineapple]

Is this part of the economic factor? After all, if your system was lasting forever, companies would have some problem justifying their investor that they can sell you stuff only once.

I bought a PowerPC laptop back in 1995 and I could beat on the keyboard, not use a bag to carry to class, sit on it, almost anything it would take. Last year, I got a TiBook: first week, the return key broke, the next day, I hold the machine, the battery felt off the machine (while working), the screen had 5 bad pixels when I got it and the sticker feet on the bottom left the machine one at a time (without mentioning keys that scratch the screen, heat that burned my laps and locking system that doesn't work anymore.) Overall, a beautiful machine when you see it in an ad. But not built too last.

A friend of mine has still an HP-41C in perfect working condition (made 20 years ago.)

PPA, the girl next door.

Map the backlight to the pen

[golo]

You can configure the backlight to use an upward pen swipe in the "Button" preferences

Re:Cheap means cheap

[Zeinfeld]

The whole point of the M100 and M105 line is that they are ultra-cheap so that people who would not normally buy one will get into the market. Remember the Ford Pinto? It would have cost less than $30/car to fix the defect that made them blow up in rear end collissions but they wanted the car to sell for less than $2k/unit.

Casio appears to have worked out how to make pocket calculators that are both cheap and reliable. If Palm can't work out how to make its products more reliable they have big problems. This is not the only quality problem I have heard reported.

The real problem is that palm has done very little of significance since the Palm VII came out almost three years ago. All the interesting stuff on PalmOS has come from Sony, Handspring and the cellular companies. Some day the dragonball processor Palms will be on the store shelves, however this is likely to be too little too late.

Palm appear to have an Apple complex. They believe they know what customers want better than their customers. Problem there is that such companies have a habit of getting overly ideological about irrelevances.

I recently acquired a Zaurus 5000, even though the device is first generation it has a much more useful feature set than the Palm. There are plenty of things wrong with it (memory management is hopeless, a 32Mb machine should be able to run a Web browser without any difficulty, the machines we used to design the Web all had less memory.), however the rate of progress has been pretty good. They fixed the problem with the image viewer that meant that it could now view pictures from 2 Megapixel cameras pretty quick.

I suspect that the Zaurus and PocketPC lines will both develop quickly because they are in direct competition.

My Palm service experience

[jkovach]

I have had problems with Palm too....

One day, while trying to take notes in class, I dropped my Palm IIIxe on the floor and broke the screen. (Whooooops.) Because I had the Palm folding keyboard that worked with the III series but not the newer models with their redesigned cases, I opted to pay Palm $100 to fix my unit rather than to go buy a new one. So I sent my device back, and a week later I get the exchange unit. I then threw some batteries in it and stick it in my backpack, and then when I go to use it two days later it doesn't turn on because the batteries are dead. I figured that the case I had it in was pushing one of the buttons and didn't really think much of it at the time, but after several more sets of dead batteries I did some testing and found that the device would run down batteries in 12 hours while sitting turned off in a drawer. Hard resets and a different brand of battery didn't fix it, so off it went back to Palm for another exchange...

One week later, the second replacement arrives. In go the batteries, and I even install a fresh copy of the Hotsync software for Windows and sync with that instead of using KPilot to restore my old data. Same problem - 12 hours later, turned off in a drawer, dead batteries. So I call up Palm again and explain my situation, and they say to do another exchange, and when I asked what I could do if the new unit had the same problem they told me I could call corporate headquarters "using the number from the website." Thankfully, the third replacement worked.

So in the end, in order to have a $100 repair performed on my Palm, I had to pay the $100, plus $5 in tax, $10 three times for return shipping and $8 for a 12 pack of batteries from the rat shack. Total of $142. Plus it took a month and three trips to the post office. Rather inconvienient, and not exactly a ringing endorsement of Palm's quality control...

Other Palms have similar problems

[GlenRaphael]

I've gone through a Palm Pro (screen stopped working reliably due to a loose connector being jiggled by stylus insertion), a Palm III (dropped it on the floor, the screen broke), a Handspring Visor (plugged in a camera card one day and the device just died and wouldn't wake up again), a Palm Vx (most of the buttons stopped working and the touchscreen alignment was off), and a Palm V (power button broke, two of the other buttons broke as well). Today I'm going to order a Clie.

Palm devices have a half life of about 6 months for me, but they're too damn useful to live without, so I keep buying 'em.

The buttons would probably last longer if I didn't play Galax.