ReplayTV 4500: No Hacking, or Else

mcglk writes "I was happy to see that SonicBlue had released its new generation of ReplayTV, the 4500. And it was $250 cheaper than the 4000. Except for that $250 one-time service activation fee. Worse is the agreement that goes along with it. Term1A basically says, No more hacking. Term1G says that they can enable or disable anything they want without notice. And Term2C says that if someone even alleges you are infringing on copyright, you can be shut down with no notice, no recourse, and there's nothing you can do about itthe agreement indemnifies them completely. I was really looking forward to getting one of these, too." Under that agreement, SonicBlue claims the right to destroy your device when you connect for updates.

Comments

Does not comply

[dybdahl]

That kind of enduser agreements does not comply with the consumer protection laws of most countries and are therefore not legal.

Overreaction

[spullara]

These terms are identical to those terms that are present within the Tivo service license agreement. I think you can expect terms like this from whomever you get your PVR service from. They are here to Cover Their A$$. You can find more information about Tivo's license here:

Tivo's Service Agreement

Re:Overreaction

[Gleef]

Anonymous Coward:

Once again /. readers look at the issue backwards. WHY do you think a business is even remotely concerned with what is good for consumers?
Why should they be?

Because healthy, happy, non-screwed-over customers:
* Buy more products and services from them in the future; and
* Tell their friends and acquaintances how great the company is, and encourage other people to become customers; and
* Don't involve the company in expensive lawsuits.
Well-run businesses that take the long-term view realize this and treat their customers with respect. After all, the customers are the people who are feeding them.

The trouble is, poorly run businesses are rampant, and almost nobody cares what they're doing 20 years from now. Most companies don't seem to look much farther than next year (many no farther than next quarter).

Do you want the whole world to be looking out for you? Oh no, you can't have a car that goes too fast, you might crash! You can't have inline skates, people have broken bones with those!

This is off-topic fluff, we're not talking about laws designed to "protect" you whether you like it or not, we're talking about a company reserving the right to screw their customers royally, taking their money and withholding service, and hiding this fact in the fine print of a contract they expect less than 5% of their market to read.

You can't have a home loan because it would be unfair to make you pay interest!

This one is actually on topic. Many strict Christian (and I assume other religions) sects consider Usury (the charging of interest) to be a sin. In the early days of the US, many of the northeast states had laws written by strict Christian fundamentalists, and it was actually illegal to loan money for interest. As the population became less fundimentalist, the people made a conscious decision to allow limited Usury (there still are limits on how much interest can be charged) for the practical consideration of having a market for loans.

Consumers don't have to do anything. Especially they don't have to buy a product they don't like, or agree to terms they find unfair. But if they accept an agreement without bothering to read it they are just plain stupid and deserve what happens.

People have been conditioned (I suspect deliberately) to not read boilerplate contracts. They are long, hard to read, and often oddly worded to make them more confusing. More and more often lately, most people only have access to read the contract after they have already paid their money.

While this contract is actually accessible online, most consumers won't even see it until after they've already shelled out $450 for the product. Not agreeing to it means they will have to return their product, something that is anywhere from annoying to impossible depending on the circumstances.

On the other hand, Sonic blue can ask you to agree to anything they fucking like. If they make money out of it they'll keep doing it.

Actually, they can't. There are laws limiting what can be agreed to in contracts. In most states, there are laws further limiting what can be "agreed" to in a non-negotiated contract (such as a boilerplate terms of service). I am not a lawyer, but I suspect if they use this agreement to disable the device of a New York State customer within 90 days of the customer purchasing the product, they will be in violation of NYS law.

Re:Overreaction

[ChaosDiscordSimple]

These terms are identical to those terms that are present within the Tivo service license agreement.

They most certainly are not identical. Tivo makes no restrictions on hacking the hardware, ReplayTV does. Also, while Tivo can cancel my service if I actually infringe someone's copyright, with ReplayTV, Sonicblue can cancel my service if I am "alleged to infringe." Tivo's license agreement isn't perfect, but it has limits and yields the customer some reasonable freedom.

just in case the server becomes unavailable...

[Kargan]

...like that ever happens!

---------
REPLAYTV 4500 Digital Video Recorder
Activation and Service Agreement

This Agreement applies to your use of the ReplayTV Service and is a legally binding agreement between you SONICblue Incorporated and its wholly owned subsidiary, ReplayTV Inc. (collectively "ReplayTV"). By clicking the button marked "I Agree" below or by otherwise communicating your acceptance to ReplayTV or by using the ReplayTV Service, you agree to all the terms and conditions in this Agreement. IMPORTANT NOTE: Your ReplayTV 4500 works only by receiving the ReplayTV Service offered and provided by ReplayTV. If you do not agree with all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, you are not authorized to use the ReplayTV Service, and you may return the ReplayTV 4500 to ReplayTV or the authorized retailer from whom you purchased the product for a full refund.

1. Use of the Service

A. Authorized Product. You may access and use the ReplayTV Service only with a ReplayTV 4500 product authorized to receive the ReplayTV Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product.

B. Personal Use Only. The ReplayTV Service is for personal, residential, non-commercial use. Any other use is not permitted under this Agreement. You may not re-sell the ReplayTV Service in whole or in part, nor, except as part of your transfer of the ReplayTV 4500 unit as provided in this Agreement, may you transfer the ReplayTV Service.

C. Eligible Subscribers. You represent that you are at least 18 years of age. You may permit minors to use the ReplayTV Service under your account, but you agree that you are fully responsible for the minors' use of the ReplayTV Service.

D. Accurate Information. You must give us accurate and complete information when you activate and use your ReplayTV Service. If you do not, ReplayTV may terminate your account at any time.

E. ReplayTV's Privacy Policy. ReplayTV respects the privacy of your information and will not disclose any of your information except as permitted in ReplayTV's Privacy Policy. A current copy of ReplayTV's Privacy Policy is included in the Privacy Policy section of the main menu in the ReplayTV software included on your ReplayTV 4500 and on the SONICblue website www.sonicblue.com. Please read it carefully before using your subscription for the ReplayTV Service. By using the ReplayTV Service, you understand and agree with how ReplayTV handles your information as described in our Privacy Policy. ReplayTV will use commercially reasonable efforts to notify you of any substantial and material changes to the Privacy Policy. However, you are responsible for viewing the latest Privacy Policy which can be accessed through our website at www.sonicblue.com.

F. TV Programming. The ReplayTV Service gives you the ability to see and record televised programs. However, ReplayTV exercises no editorial or programming control over these programs ("Third Party Content"). You understand that (a) ReplayTV does not guarantee the access to or recording of any particular program, (b) programming is not under ReplayTV's control, (c) ReplayTV is not responsible for and has no editorial control over any Third Party Content, and (d) ReplayTV has no control over the distribution of programs. You also understand that television programs, films, videotapes, and other materials may be copyrighted. Unauthorized recording and sending of such material may be contrary to the provisions of the United States copyright laws. The rights of copyright holders are subject to limitations when persons are engaged in "fair use" or are protected by other provisions of law. You are responsible for complying with these laws.

G. Changes to ReplayTV Service. At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice. In addition, ReplayTV may modify the terms and conditions of this Agreement from time to time (and will notify you of these changes to the Agreement)

H. Software. ReplayTV provided certain software with the ReplayTV 4500 unit you purchased, and may provide replacement (for example, bug fixes, updates or upgrades) and additional software to you from time to time (which may include by automatic downloads to the ReplayTV 4500 unit), in order for you to access and use certain features of the ReplayTV Service. Your use of all such software is subject to the terms of this Agreement. However, if a software license agreement is included with any such software, then those terms (and not this Agreement) will govern your use of that software. You have a limited, non-exclusive right to use the software only with the ReplayTV 4500 unit with which the software was provided or for which it was downloaded. You may make one copy of the software you download for backup purposes only, provided that such backup copy must include all copyright and other proprietary information and notices contained on the original. You acknowledge and agree that the software is copyrighted and contains material that is protected by copyright, trademark, trade secret and other laws and international treaty provisions relating to proprietary rights. You may not remove, change or hide any of ReplayTV's or its licensors' or suppliers' proprietary rights notices on or in the software or on output generated by the software. Except and only to the extent permitted by applicable law and this Agreement, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute, assign, transfer, or create derivative works from the software. You acknowledge and agree that any unauthorized use, transfer, sublicensing or disclosure of the software may cause irreparable injury to ReplayTV, and under such circumstances, ReplayTV shall be entitled to equitable relief, without posting bond or other security, including but not limited to, preliminary and permanent injunctive relief.

I. Ownership; Certain Rights. ReplayTV and its licensors and suppliers retain title to and ownership of all the ReplayTV software. ReplayTV and its licensors and suppliers own the intellectual property rights in and to the ReplayTV 4500 unit and the ReplayTV Service, including the copyrights and trademarks associated with the ReplayTV 4500 unit and the ReplayTV Service.

2. Fees and Term of the ReplayTV Service

A. Subscription Fees. Your use of the ReplayTV Service is subject to your payment of the subscription fee in advance. The subscription fee covers only the basic ReplayTV Service, and does not include charges or fees (a) for premium or other additional services offered as part of or through the ReplayTV Service for which ReplayTV charges additional fees, or (b) to third parties for telephone service or broadband access, if applicable. You are responsible for any such telephone or broadband service charges and acknowledge and agree that you shall be solely responsible for all disputes with any third party related to the same.

B. Lifetime Service. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, once you have paid the Service Activation Fee for your ReplayTV 4500 you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic ReplayTV Service during the lifetime of that product. The ReplayTV Service will be provided only to that particular ReplayTV 4500 unit for which you paid the subscription fee and cannot be transferred to any other units you may purchase. However, the ReplayTV Service will still apply to that unit even if you give it or sell it to a friend or family member. Thus, any service that is activated follows the ReplayTV 4500 unit and not the person.

C. Termination of Service; Your Indemnity Obligations. Notwithstanding any term of this Agreement, ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you (a) breach any provision of this Agreement (including but not limited to altering the ReplayTV 4500 unit or related software), (b) misuse the ReplayTV Service, or (c) infringe (or are alleged to infringe) upon the intellectual property rights of ReplayTV or any third party in your use in any way of the ReplayTV Service. You further agree that you will defend, indemnify and hold harmless ReplayTV and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, actions, suits, liabilities, losses, costs and expenses (including reasonable attorneys' fees) arising out of or relating to any of the actions described above that would entitle ReplayTV to terminate this Agreement.

3. DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY

A. Warranty Disclaimer. THE REPLAYTV SERVICE IS PROVIDED "AS IS," "WITH ALL FAULTS," AND "AS AVAILABLE." REPLAYTV AND ITS SUPPLIERS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND REGARDING THE REPLAYTV SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS), WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED, OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. ReplayTV makes no warranty that (a) the ReplayTV Service or its content will meet your requirements, be uninterrupted, error-free, secure or timely; or (b) that the information obtained through the ReplayTV Service (including but not limited to Third Party Programs) is accurate, current, complete or reliable. Some jurisdictions do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, so the above disclaimer may not apply to you. You may also have other legal rights that vary from state to state.

B. NO INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT WILL REPLAYTV OR ITS LICENSORS OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OF ANY KIND (WHETHER FOR LOST PROFITS, LOSS OF DATA OR OTHERWISE) ARISING FROM OR RELATING TO YOUR USE OF THE REPLAYTV SERVICE OR THIS AGREEMENT, EVEN IF REPLAYTV HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

C. LIMITATIONS OF REPLAYTV'S LIABILITY. IN NO EVENT SHALL REPLAYTV'S AGGREGATE LIABILITY TO YOU (AND ANYONE ELSE WHO USES THE REPLAYTV SERVICE THROUGH YOUR ACCOUNT), FOR ANY AND ALL CLAIMS ON ANY BASIS, WHETHER IN TORT, CONTRACT OR OTHERWISE, EXCEED THE TOTAL AMOUNT YOU PAID TO REPLAYTV FOR THE REPLAYTV 4500 UNIT AND THE REPLAYTV SERVICE. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THESE LIMITATIONS OF REPLAYTV'S AND REPLAYTV'S SUPPLIERS' AND LICENSORS' LIABILITY ARE A FUNDAMENTAL PART OF THIS AGREEMENT, AND REPLAYTV WOULD NOT ENTER INTO THIS AGREEMENT WITHOUT SUCH LIMITATION. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.

4. Miscellaneous

This Agreement (including referenced documents) constitutes the entire agreement regarding your use of the ReplayTV Service and supersedes any and all prior statements, agreements or understandings with respect to the ReplayTV Service. This Agreement is governed by and will be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of California without regard to its conflict of laws principles. If any provision of this Agreement is invalid, illegal or unenforceable, such provision will be deemed changed only to the extent necessary to make it valid, legal and enforceable; all other provisions of this Agreement will continue in full force and effect. Any failure by ReplayTV to strictly enforce any provision of this Agreement will not waive ReplayTV's right to later enforce that provision or any subsequent default or breach of the same or a different kind.

BY CLICKING ON THE "I AGREE" BUTTON BELOW, I REPRESENT THAT I HAVE READ, AND I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO, THE TERMS STATED ABOVE.

Easy way out

[alexburke]

The solution is simple: Instead of reading the agreement and agreeing to it, don't!

Re:Easy way out

[alexburke]

It's quite simple, really -- not once did you ever see the agreement, and therefore you couldn't possibly have agreed to it.

Need it spoonfed to you? Okay, keep reading.

By beginning the activation of your new ReplayTV unit here, you will be activating the unit without agreeing to the agreement that seems to have Slashdotters up in arms -- in actual fact, you won't even have seen such an agreement, period.

In some jurisdictions, click-through agreements are legally binding -- but I've yet to hear of a jurisdiction which would consider you bound to an agreement you didn't see or agree to whatsoever.

Why NOT get one?

[Winterblink]

I really don't see why this should affect the poster's take on getting one of these. The manufacturer's covering its ass in all ways possible. If you say you agree to it and hack the machine, pirate programs, whatever, you're at fault not them. They're simply making that clear. Get the machine, hack it, do what you want. Why would the license agreement change your mind, when you're going to do it anyway? :)

Wolcott

[Graymalkin]

Section 4B: Do not taunt ReplayTV 4500.

Section 4C: If you hack ReplayTV 4500 and it begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.

Geez, talking about infringement.

You are wrong

[cat_jesus]

Actually most of the hacking being done has nothing to do with illegal reception, whatever you mean by that. Most hacks are for things like increasing storage space, running web servers, making email interfaces, ugrading memory, etc...

Normally I wouldn't respond to such a troll but this kind of misinformation needs to be stopped. It is what leads to things like the DMCA.

Cat

Legally binding or not, that is the question

[fisman]

Generally people are quick to indemnify themselves from everything that may ever happen but usually these statements are not worth the paper they are printed on in a court of law.

Now I am no lawyer but would Microsoft for example be indemnified from the antitrust allegations if they put a clause to that effect in their licence agreement?

More often than not copyright notices and licence agreements are there purely for FUD purposes. I have always seriously doubted the legal grounds a company has to stand on if they claim things in a license agreement which nobody really reads, seeks legal council on or sign.

I would go out and buy one and claim that I never received the licence agreement! Would they then have to prove that I received, read and agreed to it before they can take further steps?

Come-on you Law-infested-geeks out there! What is the answer?

Re:Legally binding or not, that is the question

[Zeinfeld]

To activate you have to click through the agreement. To do that you accept the terms. It's legal if the terms are legal.

I am not a lawyer, but you don't have a clue.

The courts are the ultimate arbiters of contract law. If the courts decline to enforce contract terms then they are void.

Shrinkwrap type 'contracts' are problematic in many ways, not least because there is unequal bargaining power. It is a unilateral declaration by one side of what the terms of the agreement are. Such can be declared 'contracts of adhesion' and considered invalid by the courts. Invalid does not mean illegal, a term may be perfectly legal in a contract negotiated between two parties but not legal when it is unilaterally imposed.

I often use the example of car parking stations. You generally just drive in and get a ticket and there are no terms obvious. Somewhere just inside the carpark will be a big sign with the terms of use displayed. If you don't like the terms you can generally go back out without payment but continuing on implies your acceptance of the terms. That's settled law in Australia at least.

Actually it is settled law but not the way you think. In contract law it is impossible to exclude claims in negligence. So if a multi story car park collapses due to lack of maintenance the owner/operator is liable irregardless of what he put on the ticket. In fact there can even be a contract term stating that the owner is not liable in that precise circumstance and it is still invalid.

Incidentally that is why legal constructs such as bills of lading and letters of credit are so interesting, they are not contracts and are not subject to contract law and cannot in fact be constructed using contract law. That is why the digital signature acts were required to recognise the legality of digital signatures on such documents.

Clauses that attempt to restrict remedies were almost always thrown out by the US courts 20 years ago. Today clauses that restrict redress to arbitration are sometimes recognised, but by no means in every case. I suspect however that the provisions put in to many cell phone contracts that prohibit class action lawsuits are unenforceable.

Re:Bring on the whining!

[Technician]

Some people purchase hardware with the intent on using it "their own way". Having your VCR (digital) under a third party's thumb is very scarey. I'll stick with a PC based solution to avoid the big brother problems. The option of subscribing to the program guide, etc. is one thing. Having the ability of a EULA enforced open back door, that can kill your hardware investment remotely, is another!

an opportunity

[drDugan]

I've been thinking on this a bit. I want input.

I think it would be great to start a non-profit technology company. ... one that had consumer interest in mind. no need to really innovate on NEW products, just make products that do what corporate, money-sucking products do with the consumer interest in mind.

PVR are perfect examples. How hard is it to build a PVR? With technology today, not too hard. How hard would it be to build one that didn't put all these absurd money-grubbing restrictions on it? not hard at all. How many people would chose to buy a product designed to MAKE CONSUMER'S LIVE BETTER instead of MAKING CORPORATE EXECS and BUSINESS OWNERS RICH?

SocialTech. would you choose it?

Loophole in the first paragraph

[Technician]

If you do not agree with all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, you are not authorized to use the ReplayTV Service
They are selling the service with the restriction, not the box. Use what is in the above quote to not agree to the service, then modify the hardware to suit your needs. Remember to not use their service, that would be theft of service since you did not agree to the terms.

Re:Read Tivos agreement lately?

[echucker]

Well, I guess you're at least one step ahad of the rest of us- you actually read them! ;-)

Why accept *their* agreement?

[devnullkac]

Try mine:

REPLAYTV 4500 Digital Video Recorder
Activation and Service Agreement

1. Use of the Service
You may use the service for any purpose and SonicBlue can't say "boo" about it.

2. Fees and Term of the ReplayTV Service
SonicBlue would like for you to pay for the service, but if you figure out how to steal it, well we can certainly respect such an achievement.

3. DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY
If you use the ReplayTV 4500 to store emergency response procedures for a nuclear reactor and the product fails to function during a disaster due to neutron flux, SonicBlue accepts full responsibility for the resulting environmental damage.

4. Miscellaneous
You may modify this agreement at any time in any way without notice to SonicBlue. Failure of Sonicblue to notice or respond will constitute our agreement to the new conditions.

BY CLICKING ON THE "I AGREE" LINK BELOW, I REPRESENT THAT I HAVE READ, AND I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO, THE TERMS STATED ABOVE.

I Agree

Re:Build Your Own?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes you did.....

Allwell set top box - metallic version - $325.00
cheap bt878 video capture card
Hollywood+ mpeg playback card
DVD rom
$500.00 looks better than your design, works better too (because of the hardware mpeg playback.. NOTHING can beat the hollywood+ for playback quality in the consumer video arena.)

in fact, I have one now... works great. No on screen crap, I program it completely from a webpage and the remote allows me to select what show to watch.

you want one too?

do a search for linux VCR. and there's your start. you also need Mplayer and lirc.

So what if you don't agree?

[TheSHAD0W]

So what if you don't agree to these terms? You save $250, obviously, but you're left with an unworkable piece of hardware.

Well, what if you could make it workable? Can a *nix be ported onto it? Add a video codec, and create an open-source PVR OS?

Maybe this is something SonicBlue is hoping for. They've got a nice piece of hardware, and they can keep making 'em, just as long as it's someone else who takes the blame for that 30-second commercial skip.

Does this violate merchantability?

[MobyDisk]

In the US, all products must carry an implied warranty of merchantability. If the product can be disabled for any reason, wouldn't that violate the agreement? Thus, this product cannot be sold in the us? Any lawyers care to comment?

If I hear Linux Tivo-like Device one more time I..

[NickV]

will scream :P

Basically, WHENEVER there is a TIVO/ReplayTV device story on /., about a quarter of the posts are "Let's make our own!" posts. Yet, there are NO viable alternatives out there. Yes, alternatives exist, but none are as user friendly or work across as varied a user base as the Tivo or ReplayTV.

Sure, if I lived in Europe and had satellite television I'd be set with a DBS setup. Sure if I had a direct tuner on my tv (not a cable box) I'd be set.

But NOT one project I've seen (including the Linux VCR, the Linux-Tivo thing on /. before, etc) has found a way to change the channels on the CABLE box when you want to watch something else. This is something so incredibly obvious, and ridiculously needed to get ANY decent functionality on 90% of the televisions in the US, yet NOT one project supports this. TIVO and ReplayTV both have support by placing these little emitters above the cable box that sends the correct IR codes when a channel change is needed.

Simply, you can't use the built-in TV tuner for most analog cable hookups and ALL digital cable hookups.

Does ANY project do this? I'm working on coding my own using the TiVo emitters, but I really don't want to duplicate work.

Great Opportunity for Tivo!

[statusbar]

Imagine, tivo can obliterate their competition just by telling them that EVERYONE is performing hacks and copyright violations! ReplayTV will have to shut down all of their own customers! A great Denial Of Service attack!

--jeff++

Bad old days when you couldn't own your phone....

[dpbsmith]

...you had to pay a dollar a month FOREVER, a dollar-fifty if the phone was any color but black, two dollars if it had Touch-Tone. If you wanted a phone made by any manufacturer but Western Electric, you couldn't connect it. You couldn't connect any device to the phone line. Indeed, you couldn't even attach a mechanical muffler (the Hush-A-Phone) to the mouthpiece that made it harder for people to overhear your conversations.

You just rented "service," equipment and all, at a monthly rate, and you could do with it only what the telephone company wanted you to do with it.

It should be clear at this point that the pendulum is swinging back, and that the Tivos, the cable providers, and the software vendors of the world are trying to turn back the clock to that comfortable time when you didn't own and couldn't control ANYTHING in your house that was wired for communications.

It's only a matter of time before video recorders and computers are not sold at all. You simply get to choose the one that's provided free (or for a $1000 installation charge?) with your subscription service.

Re:Not Whining

[Zathrus]

The reason you're waiting is because it's not a trivial problem. People who think it's a trivial problem don't have a clue what the problem is.

Recording the data stream, keeping it all perfectly synched, allowing fast forward/skip/rewind at various speeds/intervals and still keeping it synched, the program guide data, the user interface, reasonable indexing of recorded data, and everything else - these aren't simple problems. The first being the hardest. And the guide data isn't free - you have to pay someone for it. To get it in the level of detail and quality that TiVo has you have to pay a good bit (more than what you can download from the net or hack off your cable/DSS).

Free markets do provide what is in demand. But nobody believes that the average consumer will $2k for one of these boxes - which is about what you'd have to charge to recoup R&D costs since you have no ongoing revenue.

There's a reason that TiVo and Replay have done well. And why nobody's sufficiently duplicated them yet on the PC. One of these days you'll realize that.

Less Whining

[Greyfox]

More contributing to the OpenPVR project. For the price of a Replay TV or even a Tivo, you can put together a very nice system, one or two tuner cards and internet connectivity and have the same functionality under your control. The hardest part of the whole thing is getting channel listings and if you poke around on the net a bit you can usually find listings for your area. tvguide.com's a good place to start, though I expect if a bunch of people start sucking listings off their page, they'll start making it harder to get them.

Warranty call in mcglk and michael's world

[gad_zuki!]

Replay: "How may I assist you today?"

michael: "My Replay isn't working, smoke is coming out of it!"

Replay: "Really, what happened?"

michael: "I was trying to overclock it with a home brewed water cooled system like I saw on slashdot and spilled water everywhere!"

Replay: "Holy shit, sir. We'll send another $500 box to your house for free!"

muchael: "Cool. I'm gonna try to submerge the new one in a fishtank."

Replayl: "Awesome, do you believe the corporate pricks at Tivo won't even let you open the box without voiding the warranty? They got some fascist sticker and everything!"

michael: "How do they sleep at night?"

---

BTW, where's the obligatory link to SonicBlue's page and a link to the model discussed? Bad /. editor bad.

Warranty call in the real world

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Replay: "How may I assist you today?"

Joe Blow: "My Replay isn't working. Fix it now!"

Replay: "Really, what happened?"

Joe Blow: "I put it in the fish tank so it wouldn't clutter up my bookcase."

They're pretty close though

[Otto]

Well, no, they aren't. But lets just say they are for the sake of argument.

Well, why don't we simply READ the two and note that at least two of three are the same.

Replay 1A: A. Authorized Product. You may access and use the ReplayTV Service only with a ReplayTV 4500 product authorized to receive the ReplayTV Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product.

Tivo: Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product....

Replay 1G:
G. Changes to ReplayTV Service. At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice. In addition, ReplayTV may modify the terms and conditions of this Agreement from time to time (and will notify you of these changes to the Agreement)

Tivo: Changes to TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.

Okay, so there's no easy direct correlation for Replay's 2C Clause. Still...

Re:They're pretty close though

[batkiwi]

Here's the big difference:

Tivo: Changes to TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.

They say they can change TIVO SERVICE. Not your tivo. They can stop doing season passes, stop giving you guide data, whatever they want. But they NEVER claim to be able to disable your tivo.

Replay says they can mess with your replay unit at any time, even disable it.

THAT is the difference.

There isn't much of a free market here folks

[FreeUser]

Come on, people. This is nothing to get bent out of shape about -- this is exactly what the free market is for! Yes, it might be a kewl product, but if you don't agree with the license, don't purchase the product.

The problem is, there really isn't a free market. The copyright cartels, and their goons, are strongarming ReplayTV, TiVo, and other PVR manufacturers into disabling features they don't like (commercial skipping) and possibly even requiring features they do like (embedded commercials, coming to a PVR near you?).

Those that want to make a kick ass PVR and sell it face the daunting certainty of being sued into oblivion by such household cartels as the MPAA and, if the device allows the sharing of music, the RIAA. So long as these monopolists can send their IP lawyer/thugs around shutting down businesses they don't like, intimidating the rest, and even absorbing the more successful (mp3.com), no free market will ever really exist because consumers will be prevented from having the choice of buying what they want altogether.

The invisible hand of the free market doesn't work when this sort of coercion is in play, and whether the terms of this particular license are to protect Replay from the copyright cartels (and whatever court orders their copyright priveleges may result in), or to take advantage of their customers down the road is quite irrelevant. Either way, it is the customer, that's you and I folks, who gets screwed, and the only viable alternative is to give up a little convinience and roll your own GNU/Linux based PVR (it is with pleasure I hear the screaming and wailing of the naysayers now, as I watch my Max Headroom episodes in resolutions they can't even dream of :-).

As for me, I will not be buying this product, but I will be writing Sonic Blue to tell them just exactly why I won't be buying. To make it easier for you, here is Sonic Blue's contact page [replaytv.com]. I urge you to send them a similar letter if this policy bothers you.

That is excellent advice ... and about the only way a consumer can wield any power in an oligarchical market: vocal boycott of the entire product. (It is the copyright cartels, not the PVR makers, who are the oligarchs, but since they effectively decide which PVRs are legal and which are not it amounts to much the same thing.)