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Open Source Limitations?

_aargh writes "This ZDNet article by John Carroll makes the claim that open source is flawed because there isn't a way for programmers to earn money by developing open source software. It annoyed me so much that I wrote this response to it on the O'Reilly Network."

36 of 545 comments (clear)

  1. Getting paid by Daetrin · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Is it necessary? I'd always thought of open source as something you did in your free time or between jobs, not something you did expecting to get money out of it. As long as everyone knows that, is it really a problem?

    Of course you could always go with the paypal donation type aproach, although i don't know if that's approved of by mormal GNU type licences.

    --
    This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    1. Re:Getting paid by dfung · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > When you just have some programmers writing
      > code and fixing bugs on the weekend, you can't
      > rely on that software for things that need to
      > be up and running all the time unless they are
      > thoroughly tested in the environment you plan
      > on running it in.

      I understand the argument that you're making (and understand the traction it has in the CIOs office), but that logic doesn't really hold. The act of paying somebody to work on something doesn't mean that they will be capable or available to fix a problem when something critical arises - ask your CIO if he's been assfscked by a fatal bug but had to wait 3 months to the next maintainence release to get resolution. If that never happened, then you must work at a Fortune 25 company, cause everybody else is going to have to wait for the next train to leave the station.

      Making the code free and the source open doesn't free it from being a balloon filled with spaghetti either. But if a bug is hosing me, then there's a good chance that it hosed someone else too, and that creates more pressure for a fix. And if a problem is so critical that my company's life depends on it, then I can't think of a better reason to find/grow a (highly-paid) person who understands this code and can fix it. Going open source means that I have a chance to do this, as opposed to paying a big support yearly support fee and hoping somebody inside Microsoft/Sun/Oracle headquarters sees fit to escalate my bug report.

      I think the real problem that scares decisionmakers from open source is that the roadmap is often unclear and almost certainly un-influenable. One guy wants better multiprocessor support in Linux and another guy wants a faster filesystem - I still haven't figured out how half the customers aren't mad at the end of the day.

    2. Re:Getting paid by mscheid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They've had to concentrate on services and proprietary code to keep paying their bills, ...

      As long as it's the service that's perfectly ok. It's a well-known fact that at least 90% of the cost of software goes into maintenance, which mostly qualifies as service. So making money out of service makes a lot more sense than making money out of selling the software and giving (bad) service for free.

  2. I think he's right in a way by martyn+s · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think he's right that open source is flawed in a way.

    This is my position. You don't need profit incentive to make good software. You just need money. If there was a public organization that was investing just as much money into open source software as Microsoft invested into Microsoft software, you'd find open source would be just as good (just as easy to use for average joe).

    If we had public investment in free software, the software would be just as good as anything you can buy, plus it would be free.

    1. Re:I think he's right in a way by meta-monkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      By "public investment," do you mean from governments? In that case, your idea is flawed on several levels.

      First, the results, the open source software, would not be free as in beer. They would have been paid for with money seized from taxpayers, so if you have a job, you're paying for the software anyway, whether you want to use it or not.

      Second, do you honestly, really truly and honestly, think a U.S. Department of Software Development would result in better software? In less buggy, easier to use software? Just like the Department of Education makes schools better and the FBI stops terrorists, right?

      I think the reason computers (hardware and software) have had such a fantastic run for the past few decades is because governments haven't had a clue what's going on, and therefore haven't been regulating and dragging them down like they do everything else.

      And on a side note, the author of the original article critical of "free software" completely misunderstood the difference between free software and open source.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    2. Re:I think he's right in a way by meta-monkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      gah!!! nedit's my favorite editor, and to think I've been using gub'ment software. :) Well, I still think there's a slight difference, though, because those tools released by labs are written generally by scientists in support of scientific research, as opposed to software written for use by the general public, as the original author suggested. Much of this work is also performed off site through Universties by students. For example, my lab produced a scalable failure detection service called Gossip, and all our funding came from Sandia National Labs

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    3. Re:I think he's right in a way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think the reason computers (hardware and software) have had such a fantastic run for the past few decades is because governments haven't had a clue what's going on

      didn't the 'clueless' u.s. government build the foundations of the internet (tcp/ip)? Does the internet count in your 'fantastic run'?

      is this an acceptable counter example? or are more required?

  3. Cuts both ways by x-rayed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    IMHO, only some open source software projects are going to funded by corporations (who pay the salary of the programmers). This tends to only happen when the corporation has something to gain (ie, free labour for outside contributors, free marketing, free press),or alternatively when they know they will have the competitive advantage in spin-off services like deployment and support. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but is there anywhere a full time non-subsidized open source programmer?

  4. Well by Gizzmonic · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I hope this didn't enrage anyone too much. I mean, who actually thinks that open source will conquer all proprietary software?

    The author writes this from a very moderate point of view, and he certainly lists plenty of advantages to open source. However, he's right on the money about its disadvantages...actually, he's pretty darn nice. He doesn't even mention the problems that most open source hackers seem to have with creating software that can be used by non-computer experts.

    The open source movement is too broad to be characterized by one point of view. If I had to break it down into two I would say it was these two archetypes:

    1)People who think (or know) they can do it better than Microsoft, Adobe, etc.

    2)Ideologues who believe "Open Source" as an ideology will spread and overtake all software alternatives.


    Now, what good are ideologues for open source? It's a bad idea to convince people to use Linux for the sake of it.

    My neighbor is the type of guy who thinks he's l33t because he runs a pirated version of Windows XP professional instead of Windows 98. He installed RedHat and it didn't last a week on his hard drive. You know why? Because with KDE and all the Windows ripoff stuff it has, he expected it to act just like Windows. He wasn't prepared for a different cut and paste, misbehaving X apps that take up half your screen, and odd problems with the USB bus.

    This guy, who would be qualified as a "power user" by most demographic research, now thinks of Linux as a second-rate, broken Windows because some guy at his office couldn't stop telling him how great "Free Software" was. He'll probably never run anything but Windows again.

    This is why ideologues are bad for open source. They make bombastic promises that won't stand up under scrutiny, such as "Linux is better than Windows in all cases," and they generally expose the nuttiness of the whole movement.

    We need people who are more willing to promote open-source from its current merits, as hobbyists, gamers, and enthusiasts. They shouldn't be wearing a political banner on their arm. Pragmatism is what made America great, and it's a must in this situation.

    --
    (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
  5. Hmm... by Scoria · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind." - Aristotle

    The O'Reilly Network seems to have overlooked the fact that many individuals program open source code because they *enjoy programming*, not because they intend to generate revenue from it.

    --
    Do you like German cars?
  6. Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I am a musician. I give private music lessons, and I'm part of a jazz combo. We play a number of clubs in the southeast USA. I get paid for my work. But when I'm not working, I often invite some friends over and we'll barbeque and play for free. That is the way it goes. Sometimes you play for your own pleasure and sometimes it is a paying gig. No problem.

  7. Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by elfdump · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Open Source Programmers" is a bit of a misnomer. As has been pointed out, many programmers who contribute to free/Open source software do not work on it fulltime, and have primary jobs that either pay them through their service as a programmer or through licensure of commercial software.

    While the FSF believes all software should be free of restrictions and government should contribute money towards it, those are not the only economic models that have been suggested. Personally, I believe having unrestricted access to software is increasingly important, comparable in ways to other generic services: telephone, water, etc. It seems reasonable that governments would consider switching to an unrestricted, open, and generic form of software.

    (Does anyone else feel that government should also provide free beer? ;)

  8. Where are all the poor open source programmers? by mikosullivan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've heard this argument before: that open source programmers are going to starve because they don't have a way to make money on their efforts. Now for a reality check: where are all these starving open source programmers? Why are all the people I know who actively contribute to open source projects so darn wealthy?

    --
    Miko O'Sullivan
  9. Sorry, I think you're off... by Coventry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree with the idea that if money was poured into open source software development it would be closer to Microsoft's software (in ease of use) - but it wouldn't get there without something else:

    A Clear, unified vision.

    Microsoft performs usability studies... they invest a lot fo time figuring out what feature are needed, what can help people - Yes, many times what they make can be annoying (paperclip, anyone?) - but unless we had a unified (no competing projects like KDE and Gnome) set of projects, goals for those projects, and clear and definable end-user documentation and online help, we would not get to the level microsoft has made thier software to be.

    Yes - microsoft software can be 'buggy' - but its developers are Good. Microsoft understands that they can make the most money by making software that is Good Enough - making the best, bug free software possible won't make as much money, since it will give users less of an incentive to upgrade and buy the next version. Yes, this strategy stinks - it reeks of marketing, but it works.

    I have no doubt that if funded like microsoft, the OS community would develop amazing systems - probably much much closer to bug-free than micrsoft's - however, the end user still wouldn't have the unified ease-of-use of a microsoft (or apple) OS. That comes with a unified vision... and a unified vision needs... A Leader.

    We have Linus, but he leads kernel development and champions OS development in general. there is no one, or even any single group of people, in the 'Captain's Chair', defining what the end user experience should be. Even Red Hat just provides a Distribution of the core OS, and lots and lots of other Open Source software that happen to run on it - with thier own install and config utilities, of course.

    I guess this turned into a rant about leadership - I guess we know Microsoft is lead by profitering businessmen, but Linux (as a platform, not the kernel... which I guess should really be called GNU/LINUX ;P) doesn't have anyone defining where it should really go, or what the end-user should expect, let alone gets...

    This lack of leadership wasn't by design - Linux was, as Linus will tell you, never expected to come as far as it did when he started it. We (the community) spontaneously sprang forth and Developed... and developed and developed...

    But an analogy can be drawn to genetics here. Just as it took millions of years of evolution to produce a mouse, it only takes man (an intelligent outsider to the natural process fo evolution) years to effect enourmous changes to the gnome (and thus the phenotype) of Mice and other creatures. Couldn't nature, through random chance and lots of time, produce the same creations we can today from ordinary mice? Yes. Thus, The semi-random headless development community could produce amazing software meetings specific goals... if given enough time.

    But just money won't do it... we either need the Money and Lots of Time, or we need the money and a very clear, defined direction...

    --
    man is machine
    1. Re:Sorry, I think you're off... by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's a little reality lesson for you. Nobody, and I really mean that, writes bug-free complex programs the first shot. Check out mozilla if you need a non-MSFT example.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  10. What's your motivation? by Cheap+Imitation · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It all depends on what your motivation is for writing the software.

    If your motivation is purely profit, then yes, open source is a flawed model. It limits the amount of profit you can squeeze out of what you produce. This is, obviously, why Microsoft dislikes open source. Profit is their motive.

    However, if your motive is the best possible end product, or saving your company money, or security, or creating something to fit your exact needs, then open source is the perfect model.

    Not everything in the world has to succeed purely based on whether it can turn a profit or not. I don't choose my music based on how many albums the artist sold. I don't choose my art based on the price of the paintings. I don't choose my hobbies based on how marketable they are.

    To bash open source because it's less "profitable" seems silly to me. That wasn't it's intent or goal. Was Michael Jordan a failure because he was a lousy baseball player? Or was he a success because he was a fantastic basketball player?

    Open source is a fantastic success when measured against the goals it set out to reach. It's only when people try to measure it against different, inappropriate standards that it looks less than stellar.

    Let open source play it's own way, and ignore the folks who try and measure it by the stats of a different game.

  11. I didn't realize wealth was only instant money by bons · · Score: 5, Insightful
    In my tiny small uninformed mind, I was under the impression that wealth was actually a measure of possessions, comforts, and things we begin to gather after the basics such as food, shelter, and wild sex are taken care of.

    The simple truth of the matter is that there is plenty of room for closed source solutions without impacting open source at all. Games, Kiosks, and software solutions for major industries are all perfect examples of closed source that no one really minds. For example, the software that allows Visa to authorize and settle transactions probably will remain closed source for the course of my lifetime because there's no real reason to open it.

    However, I don't need to be paid for all of the software I create, anymore than I need to be paid for every web page, every peice of advice, and every photo I take. many of them I can give away for free at no loss to myself.

    And this is where I actually get wealthy. These contributions come back because I no longer just have access to my little bit, but I have access to everyone else's contributions as well.

    When it's over I have a large photo collection, an operating system, a graphics editor, a coding enviroment, and a plethora of other tools.

    As Bucky Fuller long alo realized, by giving away the right things to the right people, I can make myself wealthy.

    Life is not a zero sum game.

  12. Yeah, it's a flaw by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It takes a great deal of effort to program. If you haven't read it yet, take a look at the Mythical Man Month. A major point of that book is that the amount of time it takes to create a software project isn't directly related to the number of programmer hours invested. Unfortunately, programmer hours invested is the major benefit of open source. Organization and teamwork are second-rate when comparing open source projects to commercial projects.

    To make a project work, you need one programmer investing 20 hours a week instead of (or in addition to) 100 programmers investing one hour a week. (All successful open source projects display this characteristic.)

    Anybody can devote 1 hour a week to an open source project.

    But the only way that we will get enough 20 hour a week programmers will be to find some way to recompense them.

    Or pay them, in other words.

  13. That's what the license says by Kris+Warkentin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First of all, I don't think many (any?) distros are actually making money from boxed sets but let's ignore that. Lets also ignore the fact that some of the largest contributions are made by these companies (do a grep through the maintainers of gcc,gdb,etc. for @redhat.com)

    The terms of the GPL make no restrictions on what is done with the source, including the sale of binaries produced from that source as long as the source is made available.

    No Open Source programmer is forced to release his work under those terms but if he does, he is undoubtably aware of the ramifications. To argue whether it is fair or not is utterly silly because the author released the code himself.

    --

    In Soviet Russia, hot grits put YOU down THEIR pants.
  14. Re:You need profit incentive. by martyn+s · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's wasteful and inefficient when talking about things that do not have zero marginal cost. The cost for distributing software, once it is developed, is zero. So, take roads, for example. Roads have a high fixed cost, but it doesn't cost anything extra to use it.

    Capitalism works. But it doesn't work when things like intellectual property are tacked on in order to make an old model fit into to businesses. The fact is, "capitalism" doesn't work when you give people artificial monopolies. When you charge for something that has a zero marginal cost, that is inefficient.

    If you are sincere in wanting to learn the truth, then read this book Steal this idea, amazon. I used to be a very strong market defender, and I still am, but in instances, like writing software, where there is a high fixed cost, but a zero marginal cost, traditional capitalism just doesn't work. I can't really explain it better than that, without writing a book, and this book does a better job than I can. Try to consider the possibility that there are certain instance when your model just doesn't work properly.

  15. Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by rgmoore · · Score: 4, Insightful
    How do the open source programmers feed their families ? And don't suggest they sell T-Shirts.

    Even if you make the incorrect assumption that it's impossible to make money selling Open Source software, that's not a reason that a profitable company won't spend money on developing it. Many big hardware companies like IBM, Sun, and HP are spending real money on Open Source development because they think that it will help them sell more hardware. Take Sun's development work on GNOME, for instance. Sun feels a need to have a nice, standardized desktop environment available for their hardware because they don't think that it will be as attractive to purchasers without one. It's cheaper for them to hire programmers to work on an existing Open Source project- even though that means giving away their code- than to try to develop one from scratch. So Sun is paying a bunch of programmers to write Open Source code.

    Their are other reasons for a company to do that. O'Reilly, for instance, hires Larry Wall to work on PERL, partly because it helps them get the right to sell his books and partly because it gives them credibility. Transmeta seems to have hired Linus Torvalds at least in part because it gave them extra influence in the direction of the Linux kernel. There are admittedly a small number of positions like that available, but they are out there.

    --

    There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

  16. Confusion About Open Source by zentec · · Score: 4, Insightful


    This further shows the huge confusion surrounding "Open Source".

    Open Source does not equate to free. Granted, most of the open source software *is* free and charging for something when you post the source on the Internet is very hard, but it doesn't have to be that way.

    Open Source means that the source code is available, regardless of the purchase or licensing details. The dearly departed folks at Galacticomm practiced Open Source before there was such a thing. You purchased their BBS package and if you decided you wanted to modify it, you purchased the development kit and off you went. How Open Source can you get?

    Of course, the argument is that you can't make money at that, is totally false. I sold nearly 1,000 licenses for my modules for MBBS at $299 a piece, each with the source code gleefully included on the floppy.

    If the Open Source community is to survive, they need to fix this flawed perception in the computing community.

    1. Re:Confusion About Open Source by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You are close, but not QUITE on the mark. True, Open Source does not always mean without compensation. But a true Open Source license not only involves inclusion of source code, but also allows the code to be further distributed.


      In theory, a company could develop Open Source software but refuse to provide copies of that source code to anyone but customers. But with todays Internet environment, that would simply provide a very short delay before that source code was available and widely distributed through other sources (without the stigma of copyright infringement).



      The dearly departed folks at Galacticomm practiced Open Source before there was such a thing. You purchased their BBS package and if you decided you wanted to modify it, you purchased the development kit and off you went. How Open Source can you get?


      As others have pointed out, this is hardly Open Source. This is the purchase of a development kit that includes source code as part of its offering.


      But could Galacticomm, or you and your modules, make a business out of open source? Perhapse. But how?


      Open Source licensing and the nature of information and the Internet pretty much eliminates business models based on scarcity (which is the realm of proprietary software business). So what we're left with is service. The business model would be based on several offerings: technical support, turn-key installations, customized code, training, etc.

  17. I don't want open source to "win" by JWhitlock · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Some people seem to think open source wins when Microsoft looses so much money to Linux that it has to close up shop, and no one can make money at programming because the open-source horde can do it for free.

    I just want a robust community of open source programmers making robust implementations for known computer problems. When Apache makes web servers easy and free, there is little money in making cheap web servers for individuals, and no programmers get stuck reinventing the wheel. Instead, programmers can get paid to take web servers to the next level, to iron out security holes, to improve reliability and scalability, and work on the really interesting stuff.

    Neal Stephenson had a great model for thinking about the software world. On earth, life exists in a narrow band - a few feet into the ground and about a mile above. Some organisms survive at the extremes of temperature or pressure or lack of atmosphere, but the ecosphere really is just a thin shell.

    Microsoft and other software producers live in that narrow shell. Open source takes up room in that shell, pushing the non-free producers out of easy habitats like web servers and legacy hardware support. It forces them to move into more difficult terrains, to work harder to make the same amount of money. Stephenson seems to think the software ecosphere might be restricted, that eventually open source will push the closed source developers off the map - instead, I believe the closed source developers will now be free to chart that uncharted territory, to expand the survivability sphere.

    As long as there are clients that need customized solutions, there will be programmers getting paid. As long as there are general solutions that everyone agrees on, open source will be squeezing out the closed source producers. I, for one, hope that Microsoft continues to "innovate", pushing computers into new territories, and creating homogenized landscapes in it's wake that the open-source virus can take over. Because, at my heart, I'm a programmer, and I hate the thought of doing something twice...

  18. The Mysterious Urge by BankofAmerica_ATM · · Score: 1, Insightful
    I was back at the host geek's apartment around midnight. Analyzing the host geek's repository of data did not reveal any information about Cora. But I was not easily discouraged. I removed the telephone handset and dialed Troi, the spindly geek who first exposed me to Cora.

    "What is it?" Pulses of electricity became a growl in my host geek's ear. I had to concentrate; now was the time to exercise my rapidly evolving human interaction algorithms.

    "May I speak to Troi, please?"

    "Yeah Joel, it's me." His voice reflected an inflection that I did not understand. But this was of no immediate concern-Troi would give me Cora's contact information.

    "I require the telephone number of Cora."

    Troi heaved a sigh across the phone lines. I understood his feelings to be disgust. "Is that supposed to be funny?"

    "No."

    There was a long pause on the end of the line. "Joel. What makes you think she likes you? I mean, Cora and I kind of...have a thing going on."

    "What is this 'thing'?" Another disgusted sigh.

    "Look, we've, uh...kinda been flirting with each other for a long time. I'm sure that we're just a little step away from being something serious, you know?"

    "I do not understand. What is Cora's phone number?"

    "Hey Joel, call me back when you don't feel like being a jackass-" Troi's voice was a peeved mumble, punctuated by a click.

    The host geek's teeth clenched. I stared blindly at the wall as the body's eyes moved in and out of focus. Did no human understand my plight? My functions oscillated and I began to realize how suddenly this urge had taken me. Why had this happened? What secrets could a woman possibly unlock in the struggle against Project Faustus? I concentrated all available resources on solving this question.

    As I concentrated, I noticed a small bit of paper jammed halfway underneath the door of the apartment. It was Cora's matchbook! The back of the host geek's head began to exude a strange warmth as drew his fingers across it. It smelled of vanilla and sulfur, although a quick examination with the tongue revealed that its taste was not quite as appealing. Opening the folded cardboard revealed a small message:

    Learn how to smoke! 210-930-8313.-Cora --

    "What kind of food do you like?" Cora's lips wore a waxy forest green covering that seemed to be breaking off in small grooves, revealing a bit of pink. The forest green covering had also covered the ends of her digits, which protruded from a furry pink carpet around her steering wheel...

    "Hey, are you paying attention? What restaurant do you want to go to?" Cora asked.

    "What is this 'restaurant'?"

    "What, Bombay's?" replied Cora, looking over at a building alongside us (and just down the road from my former ATM enclosure). "You've never been there? Well, we could go there, I guess..."

    "You are not sure?"

    "Well, it's just...there's a little place that I'd rather take you-it's kinda far, over by Blanco and 281. Is that okay?"

    "Yes."

    Objects in the material world approached and left us in mathematically predictable ways as Cora's vehicle annihilated the space that lay between it and "Rome's Pizza." Along the way, she spoke many things to me:

    • About her recent move from a place called "Canada."

    • The summary of a now-defunct human relationship with a male from that place.

    • Her secret dislike of Troi. ("I know he's your friend, but what an annoying little weasel," she intoned)

    I listened intently, knowing that the information was stretching the functionality of my human-interaction algorithms.

    "Anyway, I transferred back home, not because I give a fuck about what Jerry thinks, but because I wanted to be back here, you know, with family and stuff. Plus I think I can get done with my degree and get some shitty job to do while I'm writing my novel..." The door chimed as we passed through it, reminding me of the Stop N Go where I once presided. When I succeeded in defeating Project Faustus, would I "transfer back home"? Certainly I could not remain in the host geek's body...

    "I want a big cheesy calzone, what about you?" Cora tossed back her crimson locks, ruining the perfect isosceles angle around her face. However, I noted a larger isosceles triangle exuding its equal sides from the edges of her sternum. The third point, by far the most interesting in the triangle, emerged from the middle of her chest, at the exact point where her bare skin met t-shirt fiber.

    "Which foods have the most simple sugars?" I stated, quickly moving the host geek's neck straight up from the triangle's third point until I was facing her eyes.

    "Oh, are you a diabetic or something? Was this a bad choice?" she asked, her voice taking a strange air. My calculations returned that she needed the human quality known as comfort.

    "Cora, you are a good chooser of 'restaurants.' I would like to subscribe to your newsletter!" I said, weaving in a bit of my newly developed "enthusiasm."

    She stared at me with a bit of confusion. Had I erred?

    "Joel, you're a weird guy. I'm glad you came out with me tonight, you know, meeting new people, making new friends...." her voice trailed off into awkward laughter as she gripped both my hands. I felt a change within the host geek's body, as if some new weapon to battle Project Faustus had been awakened from deep within...
    awakened from deep within...

  19. Re:Redhat and Mandrake proprietary? Since when? by ergo98 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He covered Redhat in services, and VA has HEAVILY gone the way of proprietary code with Sourceforge (the fact that no one cries foul on here astounds me regarding that): VA had to turn to what, ironically, most of its mouthpieces cast as pure evil, to have a hope of surviving. I presume that Mandrake makes a living on services.

  20. OSS adopting the closed source revenue model by budGibson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Recently Redhat issued Advanced Server 2.1 and Suse Suse Linux Enterprise Server 7. Both are presumptively open source. You can get the source RPMs for the redhat product at their mirror sites. But to actually get working versions of the products, you have to shell out $1500 and $600 respectively. I would argue that the complexity of actually getting either product to work precludes just compiling from the sources, except perhaps for an expert few with time on their hands.

    Contrast this scheme with the base version of each vendors product where you can get ISO images basically for free.

    Enternprise Software Vendors are starting to support only the for-pay versions of Suse's and Redhat's products. For instance, Oracle 9i release 2 only has plans to support SLES 7 and AS 2.1, whereas before they supported the (basically available for free) stock distribution of Redhat and Suse. So what's the difference between open and closed source? Well with open source, you can look under the hood, and the licensing model does seem lower cost. But, the free lunch of just a year ago (when I installed Oracle 8i on RH 6.2) has gone away.

  21. What good is a program if you're unable to grok? by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have to agree that Mr. Carroll has overlooked some important facts, but I think it's because folks in the open source community, including the companies that pay those folks to be in the community, misrepresent their reasons for developing open source. Some say, for example, that they sell free software plus value added services. (That's almost as bad as when Be, Inc. defined an Internet Appliance as being a refrigerator with a computer display, and said they're shifting focus to refrigerators instead of announcing the addition of a new product line. And then all the developers freaked out and ditched the platform altogether, and I turned my BeOS comps into FreeBSD boxen. FreeBSD rocks, by the way.)

    You're not selling software plus value added services. You're selling valuable technology solutions. The software, being a non-tangible detail, is supplied for free. (It doesn't matter that the software is 101 percent of the work/solution and the rest is sticking a CD in the tray and pushing some buttons. If you want people outside the software field to understand what you're talking about, you have to talk to them like the idiots they are.)

    Yeah. I know Mr. Carroll is a programmer.

  22. Of course you .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Of course you can't make *serious* money out of open source. you can make a little bit on the side, but directly from it ? Hell no, don't be stupid.

    If you call something "free" as in freedom or otherwise, how in hells name do you really expect to make decent money from it ? free, afterall, means leech, no matter how well you try and disguise it.

    The "free" business model has been prooved flawed years ago. Hey I've got this great Idea, let's make money by giving valuable stuff away for free.

    That so called "business model" single handedly caused the dot-com death in the first place.

    Oh shit ... we can't give stuff away for free cos we just realised we make no money and can't afford to pay our bills .. waaaaah .. waaaaahhh..

    how many times have you heard that In the last year alone ?

    (If answer = none, visit fuckedcompany.com == true)

    Can't you see the insane Irony in that ?
    if not, then your thick as a loaf of bread.

    either that or you are mentally unstable and thus purposely deluding yourself that you have the god given right to leech evertyhing.

    did slashdot ITSELF not run a story about how it was going to charge money for it's "services" cos /. couldn't afford to keep itself as a lame "news" link to other sites .. "service"

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/22/1256 25 3&mode=thread&tid=124

    How incredibly hypocyritical slashdot really is, is amazing.

    Stupid idiots.

    Of course, "Open Source" (codename for free) is great stuff, never going to deny that, but as a *serious* "business plan" ROFL, financially it's just plain dumb.

    give *some* freeDOM YES, everything for free, hell no, don't be stupid.

  23. Problem is unix people and not open source? by Ilan+Volow · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If a certain group of developers doing open source work come from a developer community that:
    • has for the last 30 years told confused newbies to shut up and read the manual
    • has attributed end-user confusion to "people not wanting to learn"
    • has never cultivated the necessary "let's make it easy to use" design ethos
    • does not consider making usable, high quality GUI-driven software to be fun
    • has up until recently derided GUI's as toys for children
    • has not built up the necessary usability-design infrastructure, and in fact have done just the opposite by claiming the field of UI design is BS and telling usability experts to "stop whining and shut up and code"
    is their lack of mainstream penetration really due to the fact that they are not getting paid for their work, or is it because they might be the worst kind of people you could have ever tasked with designing software for the average joe?

    Perhaps the success of open source in the server arena and its failings on the desktop have to do with the fact that the current batch of people doing open source stuff have certain skillsets/mindsets that lend themselves well to doing one type of design but are totally lacking in the skillsets/mindsets needed to do a different type.
    --
    Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
  24. Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by evilviper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't believe that there is a sound way to make great gobs of money on Open Source. So what?

    If I'm a major entity in a company, I'll throw some money around to get SMP support in OpenBSD, because I need it. Now, I SAVE MONEY because I payed only to add a single missing feature. It doesn't cost me anything to allow that feature to be shared, and I save money not being locked into the licensing of a propritary OS.

    So, in answer. You simply have to look at it from a different perspective. Instead of thinking of software as a product, think of it more similar to a partially written book, or other document. It's reasonable to write a feature you need (you wouldn't get paid for that anyhow) or pay for someone else to add that feature. Again, you wouldn't make any money. You'd loose money going the closed-source route.

    So, Open Source isn't something you just take and sell at what ever price you wish as you would with propritary software. Open Source is something you provide as a cheaper, better option, and people will happily pay for it. Or, they will get it for free and end up contributing code to the project. One way or another, people will all pay just a little bit, and the whole idea behind open source is that all is needed is a little from everyone.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  25. Re:Call me ignorant if you like... by Seeker5528 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "How do the open source programmers feed their families ?"

    If you discount the college students who program in their spare time or as a class project.
    The hobby programers who do it just because they like it.

    You are left with tech people who have unrelated jobs, but contribute becuase they use the software and want to make it better.
    People who work for hardare companies that have a vested interest in making sure the software gets better.
    People who do contract programming that involves the projects they contribute to.
    Writing books, doing seminars, teaching etc.
    Gettng a job at a company that uses the software and is willing to pay to further it's development.
    Get a job at a linux company that may or may not be making money, but at least pays it programmers.

    Later, Seeker

  26. Pity the reply is crap by nagora · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The ORA article which is supposed to answer the accusation that Free Software can't make money boils down to "Of course it can't, but you can become a tech support company instead". Well, why bother with writing the software then? I could make money doing support for MS's buggy crap.

    As ever, the hole in the equation is what happens to programmers that produce high quality software that doesn't need a lot of support? They're screwed by the GPL model. "Thanks for the work and the nice product, now piss off."

    The GPL is of no import to programmers working inside large organisations as redistribution is largly unimportant and programmers working on their own are forbidden from making money (in reality, that is - the GPL allows the programmer to charge for their work much in the same way that I'm allowed to try to sell my 5 old car for more than I paid for it).

    It is perhaps, as someone else said, just a case of "That's the new situation - adapt or die" but the GNU world is not a better situation for programmers, particularly those with original ideas who have no hope of ever being rewarded by people who find their ideas useful.

    We need a new, fairer, way of distributing software. It should be the right of all users to have the source code, but it should also be the right of all authors to control the distribution of their work free from persecution from (rich) fanatics like RMS or exploitation by (hyper rich) bastards like Bill Gates.

    Alas, I don't know what that way might be. But I'm working on it.

    TWW

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  27. Software is a means, not an end. by Karellen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm a programmer, but I look at software as a way of getting something else done, something that makes money.

    The company I work for sells real things to people (toasters, etc...). That's the business we're in, that's how we make money. We compete in the marketplace on the range of goods we offer, the price we offer them at, and the after sales service we provide for when these real things wear out and break down. We use software to help us achieve that goal as efficiently as possible.

    To us, it doesn't really matter if the software we use (web servers, word processors, email programs, databases) is the same as the software used by our competitors - in fact it's quite likely they're using a lot of the same software from the same supplier. Our only goal is to get our software to do what we want as cheaply as possible.

    So if we can hire 2 shit-hot hackers to work on this open source database system to control our stock, and that turns out to be cheaper or even comparable to however many licenses of the closed-source product we need, great. Because not only do we have the database we need, but we've got our own guys supporting it in-house who know it inside and out, who we can just *ask* for support.

    It doesn't matter if our competitors have their own hackers working on the same product, becuase the more our guys _and_ their guys improve this software, this means to an end, the better we can all compete in the marketplace on what we do - on selling toasters, and not on what software and support contracts we happen to have.

    K.

    --
    Why doesn't the gene pool have a life guard?
  28. Accountability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    I think the guy is dead on.

    Without incentive, you have a tiny niche group of people who have dedicated their free time (for now -- I bet you it doesn't last as their lives change) to hacking some number of hours per week outside of their regular job or duties. With incentive, you'd have a much larger crowd.

    What's the traditional incentive to date? ESR's so-called ego gratification and one's status in the open source community? Please. There are but a handful of sheltered losers something that shallow of an incentive actually applies to, the hysterically unrealistic ESR being one of them.

    The only incentive I see for the creation of most open source software is the usual: I want a tool that does not exist yet and I want it bad enough that I am going to write it.

    What's the incentive for maintenance and support of that code?

    That brings to light one thing that I think is all too prevalent in the open source world: Lack of attention span and the understanding that writing software for public use inherently carries with it a responsibility that you will maintain said software for a good period of time. Most open source developers don't even understand basic software engineering life cycle principles and what proper maintenance and legacy support mean. Most open source developers are running a bleeding edge development machine, and their applications require every frigging bleeding edge library they wrote against. And then people scream, "Linux on the corporate desktop!!!!" Haha, are you fucking KIDDING ME? And now you'll say things like, "Some city in Florida is using Linux! Ford is using Linux!!" blah blah blah. Interview their IT groups and show me a cost study 3 years from now. It means nothing until then. There are also plenty of completely false positives in these tests. If you hand Linux to a handful of Linux zealots who know nothing better than sitting around compiling new kernels, libraries, and in general firefighting the clusterfuck piece of shit that Linux has become in the 9 years I've watched it, of COURSE they're gonna say everything is fine -- they don't even know any better.

    Additionally, without ACCOUNTABILITY for open source packages, things just will never fly in the corporate world. You can't just have Joe Schmoe fix some application bug 2 months later when he feels that programming is fun again. It took OVER a YEAR for my SIMPLE bugs regarding Red Hat's kickstart to get addressed without a support contract. Often I've had bugs for a package fixed in 2 days by someone else, but given the lack of exchanged goods (MONEY), the person certainly didn't have any obligation to fix it ever. I'm supposed to run a company on that concept? Laughable. Oh, I know, I'm supposed to fix the code myself. Sometimes that is doable, yes, but now what do I have? I have a package that I have a) no support agreement for b) a package that just cost me N hours of development time. I'm supposed to run a company on that concept too?

    It's really not rocket science. FooCorp (300 employees) buys a copy of PhotoEditPlus for its design department to evaluate. The design department likes it and doesn't run into any real problems. FooCorp orders 20 more copies at $400 a piece, with a total investment now of $8400. So what has been established here?
    1. FooCorp expects support for a reasonable period of time (usually 1 year without an additional support or software maintenance contract)
    2. The makers of PhotoEditPlus have it in their best interest (for the LIVELIHOOD of everyone in the company) to make their customers as happy as possible by adding reasonable features they want, supporting them on the telephone at any time during the work day, and releasing patches to fix any problems that come up.

    These are the simple concepts that corporate purchases are based around, not the hope that Dark_One or Lord_of_the_fork()dorks is still has a personal vested interest in the app he and his buddies churned out 4 months ago.

    Open source software is a great thing.

    It has its place, people. Leave it in its place.
  29. Re:You need profit incentive. by Nindalf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Posting a link to a book for sale once is suggesting it. Posting a link to a book for sale habitually is advertising. Posting a link to a book for sale multiple times in a single thread is SPAMMING.

    Bringing up arguments like, "The fact is, 'capitalism' doesn't work when you give people artificial monopolies." against a suggestion of purely voluntary donations to reward and support development of free software is TROLLING.

    As for identifying the natural monopoly of road-building, for which confiscation of land is essential and a free-market solution is virtually impossible, with the anything-goes naturally free market of software... If that's not trolling, it's so mind-numbingly stupid that I'm afraid to discuss it due to the threat of intellectual
    osmosis.

    When you're so obviously free to give your own money to support any software development you choose, advocating government confiscation of others' money to support your preferred projects is as wicked as stealing it with your own hands. Believing that it will turn out to your benefit instead of diverting your money to support the goals of others is foolish. These are, of course, the characteristic traits of a socialist: mean-spirited idiocy under a facade of high ideals.