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Legal Issues for Outside Webcams and Others Privacy?

Posted by Cliff on from the nitpick-or-a-valid-concern dept.

Jesse Ferrell asks: "My neighbors are asking for me to remove my (weather) web cams from my website because they show part of their houses. Is there any legal precedent to a case like this? I can point the cameras upwards towards the sky more (they are weather cams of course) but it will take time and equipment, possibly modifications to my house. Have you ever heard of a similar situation? What should I do? I'll check the local ordinances and see what I come up with."

27 of 57 comments (clear)

  1. There is no problem by mfos.org · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since you are just capturing the exterior of their homes, which is in the public domain, there shouldn't be a problem. YOu're only concern should be is that if the cameras are placed in such a way as to reveal something that normaly would be hidden.

    1. Re:There is no problem by tenman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Agree, but this isn't the only thing to look at. The people next door have a "reasonable expectation of privacy". Also, As seen in recent Texas law findings, any "image capture device" attached to a structure (even inside you own home) needs to have a strong legal backing. Juries all over the US are convicting people for using a camera voyeuristically. It would not be that hard for the neighbor claim the camera was being used to capture them for "sexual purposes". In Texas all they would have to do, is
      1) Identify the area that is exposed to the camera.
      2) Walk into view of the camera.
      3) Expose undergarments (make it look unintentional, yet non-random)
      4) The other person in the house captures the image from the web site.
      5) Call a lawyer.

      None of this is fun and games. If the law upholds his right to have the camera, then who is to say that government "weather" cameras can't be trained in on someone's house, "coincidentally".

      I am in favor of the right to point and shoot any thing I want, but let's think of the ramifications that a judgment in this area might have.

  2. Why bring up legal? by Unknown+Poltroon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Your neighbors asked you to point them somewhere else. They havent taken you to court, they havent threatened to sue. Why wouldn't you? So it will take a little effort on your part. So what. Do you dislike your neighbors that much? We spend so much time on slashdot bitching about stupid laws, but its stuff like this that gets the stupid laws put into place. People arent willing to make what seems like a reasonable concesssion, so next year therel be local law that says you ant leave an unattened camera filming someone elses property that will take years to get rid of, if we can.

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    1. Re:Why bring up legal? by xyzzy · · Score: 2

      That being said, unless he is selling the images: you have no legal "expectation of privacy" for the outside of your house. It's there for all to see. They don't have a leg to stand on (unless you can see *inside* their house with the camera, which is a different matter).

  3. It's legal unless there is a local ordinance by zenyu · · Score: 5, Insightful


    But he might just be asking for a curtesy, maybe he likes walking around naked in his apartment and doesn't want his co-workers looking at the web page obsesively trying to get a good look. Maybe just positioning it differently will appease him. If you live in a co-op with him he might be able to get you to take it down entirely by appealing to the board. Besides curtesy is underrated, if you can make him happy without ruining the camera view why not?

    There might also be a technological solution, blur the portions of the images that show windows before sending them out as a web cam.

    1. Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance by Fantanicity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      maybe he likes walking around naked in his apartment

      The cams (one and two (the one in question, I suspect)) probably wouldn't show that unless he was up at the windows flashing the whole street.

    2. Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance by zenyu · · Score: 2

      You know considering all the buildings are near the bottom of the picture in both of those some hairspray or tape on the bottoms of the lenses would probably be enough to satisfy the neighbors.

    3. Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance by cs668 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At first I was going to say you should be nice and just move it. But seeing this image I don't understand what the problem is.

      The resolution and lighting makes it impossible to see in his window. Just sounds like he is being a pain in the ass.

    4. Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance by zenyu · · Score: 2

      The resolution and lighting makes it impossible to see in his window. Just sounds like he is being a pain in the ass.

      I'm sure the windows are more visible at night.

  4. Panasonic Unitized Cameras by renehollan · · Score: 4, Insightful
    IIRC, Panasonic makes unitized pan-tilt-zoom video cameras that allow for blocking out selected parts of an image, like windows of other buildings (and given the degree of zoom available, this is a good thing).

    While such cameras are expensive (approx. US$1500), and provide aanalog RS-170 video which would have to be digitized, and not exactly "web" cams, if you point your cam at a fixed point, perhaps you could use software to blur out any of your neighbors' windows or other "sensitive" areas.

    I'd talk to a lawyer, find out what you can do (probably a lot, unless you're shooting into their windows, or fenced-in yard), and then suggest reasonable blurring of possibly sensitive portions. IOW, offer to go above and beyond what you have to do, as a gesture of goodwill, and it this isn't good enough, send them a lawyers' letter to stop the harassment.

    --
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  5. better idea by Unknown+Poltroon · · Score: 2, Funny

    "While such cameras are expensive (approx. US$1500),.......... software to blur out any of your neighbors' windows or other "sensitive" areas. "

    Cardboard cutout to block the neighbors house. 5 cents.

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    All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
  6. As a courtesy ... by zangdesign · · Score: 3, Insightful

    to your neighbors, I would make the atttempt to repoint the cameras. As a previous poster pointed out, they haven't taken you to court, so presumably there is no animosity yet.

    Potential solutions:

    1) mount the camera on the roof. This should get you better clearance.

    2) Cut a silhouette and place in front of the camera. That way you can make people think you live somewhere more exciting (that was NOT intended as a cheap shot at your town).

    3) Mount the cameras at your local school. Give the kids something to ooh and aah about, do something good for your community, appease your neighbors, and get that warm fuzzy feeling all in one.

    Have a better one.

    --
    To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
  7. It depends on where they're pointing by drbhoneydew · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A lot of their perceived problem probably arises from what they think you're going to be able to see.

    I don't think I'd be too impressed with a webcam that offers a perfect view into my bedroom, for example.

    Probably the best way of resolving this is to show them what the view that the camera gets is. They can then tell you which bits they're not happy about and you can potentially come to a mutually agreeable solution.

    Having had a look at the site, I'm guessing that it's cam #2 that's causing the issue. All it really needs is to be tilted up by a couple of degrees more to get those windows on the bottom left out of the picture.

    In cases such as this it is always better to try to talk about it rationally before getting all litigious. From a legal standpoint, you'll probably end up being forced to tilt the camera up a couple of degrees. The difference will be that it'll be after a drawn out process which will alienate you from your neighbours and the only people profitting will be the lawyers.

    Here in the UK, we have rights under the Data Protection Act to a copy of any video footage involving us (eg CCTV) and for our faces to be obscured if the footage is distributed without our permission. This usually only applies to footage that is stored on tape etc so webcams would be a bit of a grey area anyway (although the courts would probably say that the neighbours have the right to their privacy).

    1. Re:It depends on where they're pointing by bwt · · Score: 2

      Having had a look at the site, I'm guessing that it's cam #2 [weathermatrix.net] that's causing the issue. All it really needs is to be tilted up by a couple of degrees more to get those windows on the bottom left out of the picture.

      If that was my house it would bother me. It might be illegal and it might not -- that shouldn't matter to you nearly as much as offending your neighbor. The biggest cause for alarm on their part is that the windows are visible. Perhaps you can't see in them, but at a minimum you could monitor the lighting and try to infer when they are and aren't home.

      Regardless of the law, be a good neighbor and respond to their request. You don't have to take the webcam down, just make sure their house isn't in the picture. You can do this one of two ways: tilt the camera or block the line of sight to their house with a blinder.

      You should also go talk to them in person and explain that your only interest in webcams is as weathercams, that you showed their house only incidentally and meant no offense, and that you respect their request and will comply.

  8. is chivalry dead? by digitalmuse · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would have to suggest that you prove yourself as a mature and rational member of your physical community and move/adjust the camera in a way to appease your neighboors. I would show them that you respect people's personal boundries, and perhaps gain a measure of dignity for the larger community of sky-watchers/geeks/whatevers in that person's eyes.
    Don't resort to hiding behind the word of law. Be proactive and keep the peace. you might get a little more respect from them in the future when something gets under your skin.

    --
    "If I wanted your input on my pet project, I'd stick my hand up your ass and use you like a sock-puppet." - Muse
  9. No legal round by dh003i · · Score: 2

    Your neighbors probably have no legal grounds for such a request, as one can hardly be considered to have privacy in one's yard, which is in the view of numerous neighbors.

    However, if they have built a wall around their yard for privacy, and your camera is such that it can see over their wall, they might have better legal grounds.

    However, despite the legal grounds, you may want to keep on good terms with your neighbors. Since your camera is in fixed position, a certain part of what it videorecords will always be yard, another (higher) part will be sky. Simply black out the yard part with some software. I don't know of what software may do this, but its a relatively simple thing -- you just black out say the lower fourth of what your webcam records, which is ground anyways and not sky.

    --
    social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
  10. Webcam viewing others' property by markwelch · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It probably is illegal (or ought to be) to have a webcam positioned so that the general public can get a view of someone's private property (even the back yard) that is not otherwise available to the general public. Just because I can view my neighbor in the shower if I peek from my attic window, doesn't mean it's reasonable (or legal) to broadcast that image to the world.

    The core issue here, regarding the weather webcam, is what is the right thing to do, and I don't really see any doubt: the original post mentions that it is possible, though inconvenient, to reposition the cameras, and actually implies that repositioning the cameras would provide a better picture of the weather. Just do it.

    There is another issue with webcams that I think needs to be pointed out: consider that the weirdest people may view your webcam. For example, if you have a webcam that shows the traffic on your street, and the picture includes the sidewalk, a pedophile could use the webcam to profile when the local schoolkids walk to school, and to get a nice look to decide which one to abduct. Yes, it's extremely unlikely, but how would you feel the next day if that happened?

    Also, someone wrote:
    >> In fact, it's legal in most places to videotape people nude in the shower if you can see them from your property.<<

    I didn't see the usual "IANAL" disclaimer, but let me be clear on this: I am a lawyer, and I am quite certain that it WOULD be illegal (in California, at least, and probably in nearly ever U.S. state) to set up a webcam that peers into the neighbor's shower, even through an open window (note my shift from "videotape" to "webcam"). You might be legally able to videotape the neighbor in his shower, for example, to create evidence that your neighbor is indecently exposing himself to your family (one would assume that you'd not need to do this just to support of your request to the neighbor that he install a curtain or blinds). But you could not legally videotape your neighbor in the shower and show it to others for entertainment.

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    -- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
  11. Public places, expectation of privacy. by stienman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You are wrangling with something that ought to be discussed with legal counsel. It may be in your best interest to re-aim the camera, and/or use the computer to blur/black/remove/annotate portions of the picture that your neighbors object to. (ie, black out the house and put in small print: "Smelly people" or some such nonsense. Not wise, nor kind, but funny all the same.)

    That being said - video recording laws are being changed, but in most states, right now, you can record pretty much anything to video (NOT AUDIO) in any place, public or private with few exceptions.

    If want to stand your ground, you might at least try to be courteous and safe. Point out that your camera doesn't see into private yards, and through windows. Point out that everything you can see on camera can be seen by a person from a similar vantage point, and that they have no reasonable expectation of privacy from a person, camera, or any viewing device similarily mounted.

    Once you've done that, change the view anyway and very subtly imply that any view that includes them is ruined, or you've seen all of them that you care to see. Or you could be really mean and publish as much info about them on your page as is legally allowed, maybe some extra pictures, notes about their appearance and behavior. That'll get them really riled up.

    You might want to think about the flip side, though. Right now some thief could be watching their coming/going and making a schedule of when they are home, when they aren't, how they typically secure their home, etc. It could be some pedophile sitting in front of their computer waiting to see when their kid is home.

    You ought to ask yourself, do you value your privacy in public places? Do you like the idea of video cameras everywhere? Perhaps these neighbors are avid readers of Slashdot and they love the YRO section. They may simply be expressing their desire for more public privacy.

    -Adam

  12. Cheap Solution: Image Pre-Processing by scotpurl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the camera in question always looks the same direction (no pan & tilt), then you just need to batch process the images before publishing them.

    Either mask out the scenery in the foreground, or blur it beyond recognition.

    The merge between your background image (the "live" picture) and a foreground image would probably be easiest. That or do a poly-fill on known coordinates from a command line. GNUplot could almost do that.

    But, in the interest of being a good neighbor, unplug, or stop publishing the camera pix, until you have a permanent solution.

    Don't piss your neighbors off. If your house catches fire or is burgled while you're away, they may pull up deck chairs and watch, rather than telephoning for help.

  13. Proud of the slashdotter's responses. by ccady · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am proud of the many slashdotters whose advice was to be nice and try to accomodate the neighbor. I assumed that most people would say "Tell 'em to ^$%* off." Thanks for restoring a bit of my faith in human nature.

    --
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    1. Re:Proud of the slashdotter's responses. by zangdesign · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thanks, mom.

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  14. But why be a bastard about it. by gaudior · · Score: 5, Insightful
    They asked. It's no big deal. If my hobby infringes on my neighbors sensitivities, then I should modify my behaviour, as a good neighbor.

    They aren't asking anything unreasonable.

  15. This is foolish! by terpia · · Score: 2, Insightful
    What the hell do you mean that it will take equipment and modifications? It's a damn camera! Aim that little son of a bitch UP! Don't be a bastard. If you had that camera pointed at my house and I asked you to move it, you would move it. Or I would break it, and turn into one of those neighbors that makes the neighborhood a much less freindly place. Have some consideration.


    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It's time to grow up and behave like a civilised human living in close proximity to other civilised humans.

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  16. Yeah, whatever.. by zcat_NZ · · Score: 2

    A few links, minimal comment; This was mentioned (iirc) on /. earlier, and I keep referring back to it. I really don't understand the difference between a person seeing and hearing something in public versus a camera observing the same thing. And I wonder what your neighbors would think of my my perv-cam hack

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    455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
  17. Why not just mask with an overlay by tkrabec · · Score: 2

    Why not just build an overlay that will mask out their house with something else asn ask them if that would suffice. My guess you are asking /. because you really want to keep your cam pointing in that direction

    -- Tim

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    TKrabec Pahh
  18. Re:Dude by HughsOnFirst · · Score: 2

    >You legally cannot take someones picture
    >and publish without consent.

    You can if it is "news", or incidental to "news"
    (there are a bunch of other exceptions as well)
    Weather is probably "news"
    You are probably OK legally, but I'd try a technical fix so as to avoid a lifetime of bad feelings.

  19. It depends on what others can see by Spamalamadingdong · · Score: 2
    One issue that people seem not to have considered is the ability of third parties to use the webcam data for purposes not intended by the webcam owner. Such as, seeing when the occupants of the house go to bed for the purpose of stalking or harassing them, or looking for sudden changes in those habits to tell if they've gone on vacation (and that it's safe to rob the house).

    C'mon, we're geeks here. We should all be aware of the untoward possibilities of "feature creep".

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