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Hong Kong's Octopus
Reuters is carrying an interesting story about Hong Kong's Octopus smart card system, which serves as a mass-transit fare card and is now being accepted by merchants for small purchases. A magazine cover story from last year goes more into depth. Interesting to note that the system started off anonymous, and is now being converted into a personally-trackable system.
Just because it has personally-trackable info doesn't mean that it's dangerous. Credit cards, for example, have your info attached through the credit card company. Has the world gone haywire yet?
I'd love to even see all of New York's transit integrated. Example: Last night a friend had to get a bus (which accepts the MTA metrocard) to a train (Long Island Rail Road, part of MTA but no metrocard) to a subway (6 line, definitely takes MTA Metrocard) to another train (Metro North, have to buy a ticket). I think we need to get all of our transit taken care of before branching out into other fields.
"I can't understand why people are frightened by new ideas. I'm frightened of old ones."
Anonymity is still an opt-out here. You can get a personalized card if you wish, but many users still use the plain-Jane Octopus card.
I really wish we had something like this here in the US. Say goodbye to pocket change...Businesses and the government don't realize how much long-term savings they could have if they abolished coin currency altogether, and yet our government rushes to put forth *new* coinage, on the thin hopes that they might get enough interest from collectors and whatnot.
Susan B. Anthony coins didn't work...you very rarely see half-dollars...and how many of you have seen Sacagawea dollars? I used a $25 roll I had a few months ago paying for a pizza delivery. Otherwise, they're useless.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
I go back to HK every once in awhile, so I've actually *used* the system. In short, I think it's actually a worthwhile implementation cause it's a very convienent and fast system.
I mean, absolutely no hassle, just walk up to a scanner, brush your wallet across, hear the confirmation beep and off you go. (The scanner will also display how much money you have left if you care to look)
Works the same way on the bus too so there's no embarassment of looking for your ticket/correct change, making everyone behind you wait impatiently. Adding more money is easy too, just walk up to a special machine, insert your coin, choose amount to add, and then insert money.
The only down side is that, cause it works so well and is so transparent, you don't really keep track of how much money is left on the card and you find yourself adding more money to the card too frequently.
I can't remember his name, but we had a sort-of computer ethicist come and talk to my software engineering class, and one of the examples he used was the Octopus. I guess his involvement with the project ended before this whole anonymity thing came up, but he was quite disturbed about the actual mecahnics of paying.
You walk up to the metal plate and wave your card in front of it. If it goes withon about a cm of the plate, it is automatically debited some set amount. The disturbing thing is that, unlike nearly every other transaction in the history of trade and commerce, you do not have an option to back out when you see how much it costs, nor do you get any permanent record of the transaction. You could walk past the scanner and have your card debited a few times while it's in your pocket, and you'd never know.
It was a very interesting talk, raising issues that I'd never thought about before, but I think are extremely important to consider.
Question though: in what way is HK society more homogeneous than that of any one in North America? If you mean socially and financially, im afraid that we are observing two extremely different cities. Granted, the people in the higher socio-economic tier seem to be very similar in many of their buying/transportation/etc. habits, but the other half of the people in HK are moving to the beat of a different drummer.
As far as the implementation of such a system in North America, I don't know if dismissing the possibility right away is very founded. Besides the possiblity of hacking into the system and giving yourself a few hundred bucks(anyone know if Octopus is set with a limit?), the only obvious security problem with an anonymous system is pickpocketing.
I would love to have someting like an octopus card in Philadelphia when I go back to school in the fall. The possiblity of hopping on the subway and buying cigarettes and snapple (Octopus can be used at 7-11 in HK) on a card I have to wave in front of a sensor is way too conveninet for me to want to pass up. Please note that I realize my dream of a cigarette-el-philly-snap' chip is a bit idealistic...im guessing that the logistics involved in such and undertaking (not to mention the cash) would prevent such a thing from getting off the ground for a while.
For years now highway fares are being paid with a smartcard that's put on the interior of the car; the subway is payed with a smartcard. The fuel can also be paid with a smartcard.
What's interesting is that some years ago they deployed hundreds of small terminals that could read a smartcard (called in a loose translation 'electronic wallet') nation-wide anywhere where payments were to be made; transportations, stores, malls, even taxis carried the small terminal. One would transfer money from the main account to that card and that was it, the card had no apparent identification mechanism (to the point were loosing the smartcard was the same as loosing a wallet). It was pretty neat, but never really caught up. Inertia, people's confusion about the device and the fact that ppl are so used to having money or paying everything with a card...
Which brings me to a question: just about everything is payed with a bank card (VISA Electron, put in, confirm value, insert PIN, done). Every example above can also be payed with this card (except taxis) and the terminals are prepared in many cases to be self operated e.g. gas stations, public transportations, etc). Doesn't that count as 'moneyless society
In a way we are more and more dependent on plastic ; I suppose that the thing that's interesting about this Octopus thing is that it putis it all together, the 'scanning' capability used in highways, the portability of a 'electronic wallet' and the availabilty of VISA Electron.
Just my 2 euro cents,
fsmunoz
Another important advantage of the Octopus card is the speed in which the entry and exit checkpoints can read the cards. Before the Octopus, Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway used magnetic cards similar to Washington D.C.'s metro. After inserting the magnetic card into the turnstile checkpoint, it takes less than a second for the computer to process and return the card and unlock the turnstile.
With the Octopus card, you don't even need to take your card from your wallet or purse, you simply swipe your wallet/purse over a square area at the checkpoint, and it actually saves time!
While it may seem like a small savings of time, the MTR carries on average of 2.3 million passengers per day, which is remarkable since (a) it is a highly congested system, and (b) the population of Hong Kong is a little over 7 million.
It should be noted that the MTR still uses magnetic cards for single-trip fares; assuming you've paid the correct fare the exit checkpoint will keep the card and let you out -- very environmentally friendly indeed.
A cashless society could have happened here (New Zealand), I guess, if it weren't for one thing: Bank fees.
Almost everyone these days has an EFTPOS card (Electronic Funds Transfer at Point Of Sale). I guess you might call it a debit card --- it is like a credit card, but with no credit. You can only spend money you have in your account.
And virtually every shop can take EFTPOS, from dairies to retail to second hand bookshops to cinemas...
The only problem is the banks. Typically, they allow a small minimum number of free transactions per month, and beyond that, you start paying fees per transaction. So unless you really want to donate money to your friendly (foreign-owned) bank, you use cash for small transactions...
Maybe we need someone to start something like Octopus here. If everyone suddenly stopped using EFTPOS, the banks might finally get a clue...
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
In Hong Kong, there is no central bank that issues coins and bills, but 4 (at least I think its four, havent been in HKG since last year) different banks issue the same bills, each with a different building (the bank building, of course) in the back.
Its a hoot! It Corporate Money, like in cyberpunk novels!
No sig for the moment.
Capitalism in action (a secondary market) :-). However the train companies obviously don't like this.
The cards themselves are machine (magnetic strip) and human readable and work seamlessly on trains, underground, trams, busses and apparently some boats (river busses).
Obviously the authorities in HK want to use a technological means to solve a social problem (dishonesty) (which is what all tickets are in the first place).