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The Economics of File Sharing

Howzer writes "A great Salon article popped up today, and it appears Stan Liebowitz at the Cato Institute is having second thoughts about his paper that was published on May 15. It seems the facts simply don't support his earlier assertion (& the well-known position of all the major recording labels) that downloading hurts music sales. It's good to see this argued from another angle, especially by a guy like Liebowitz."

12 of 319 comments (clear)

  1. Methods for gathering Pirated Music Data by mcwop · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I would like to see more in depth details on how the music industry gathers its pirated music data. Surveys are not very accurate. Other than measuring the actual sales by pirates, it seems as if the industry pulls numbers out of thin air. Measuring downloads of music from Kazaa and equating that to lost sales is bunk as well. One must match that users downloads to their purchases of music.

    Personally, I have purchased more music since buying a cd burner. My interest in music has increased as well. Now only if the iPod would drop in price.

    --

    "I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX

    1. Re:Methods for gathering Pirated Music Data by Reziac · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My own experiences with free vs purchased music:

      Back around 1980, I was a DJ. I had access to a HUGE vinyl library and a high-end cassette recorder -- so I could tape whatever I wished.

      Until a year ago I had better online access, and could download whatever I wished. Since then I've moved and my connexion speed went to hell, so I've stopped downloading music.

      There have been two periods in my life when I *bought* a lot of music: when I was DJing, and when I had good download access. Conversely, I *didn't* buy any music when I had NO access to free music.

      On thinking about it, the reason is simple: when I have good access to free music, I also get to sample lots of stuff I've never heard before, that I can listen to when I'm in the mood to care about it (not just when some crap radio station sneaks a song in between commercials). And I want to own what I want listen to.

      Since I've not been able to reasonably download music (26k tops is not "reasonable"), I've not bought a single CD. Coincidence? You decide.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  2. of course not by YanceyAI · · Score: 5, Insightful
    File sharing doesn't hurt record labels any more than radio play. I can hear new music anytime I turn on the radio, but I still want to go buy the CD for the art, the tactile experience, and the addition to my collection.

    I can tape the song off the radio just like I can download it off the Internet, but I still want to buy, buy, buy.

    Why does this not register with label execs, economists, etc.?

    --
    Can I bum a sig?
  3. Re:Okay let's get the facts straight... by SirSlud · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course file sharing hurts sales. Just like double tape decks hurt sales. Just like not having a law preventing people from owning two VCRs hurts video sales. Just like photocopiers hurt the sales of sheet music.

    Technology changes things. In some ways better, in some ways worse. It changes peoples behaviour, and it changes the machanics of society.

    The question everybody should have been asking all along is, "Does it hurt sales so badly that nobody will want to make music?" The answer seems to be an overwhelming NO, so if thats the case, history suggests that we are should tolerate it until it finds its natural 'fit' within social behaviour and the economy. Just because it facilitates illegal behaviour does not mean that this illegal behaviour is going to have a negative impact on the market - and if you think about it, many discoveries, social patterns and values we hold up as examples of our progressive society started up as being illegal behaviour until we came to terms with its perceived threat and realized that many things we perceive as threatening or damaging can be channeled in a positive socioeconomic direction.

    --
    "Old man yells at systemd"
  4. Re:Well, personally... by yatest5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Or the stuff i kept and DIDNT pay for, i never would have in the first place.. so no-one actualy lost any revenue...

    Just because they didn't lose any revenue doesn't make this not stealing.

    --
    • Mod parent up! [a] by Anonymous Coward (Score:5) Thurs, June 31, @13:37
  5. Re:Okay let's get the facts straight... by pubjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm sick and tired of people arguing that this doesn't hurt sales. [...]

    I don't own a lawnmower. I borrow my neighbours. This affects sales of lawnmowers.

    So should they stop sharing of lawnmowers? Yeah probably. Will I be happy about it? Not one bit, but I'll accept it.

    I sometimes hitch a lift with a friend rather than use my own car. This affects petrol sales.

    Should they stop people hitching lifts? Yeah probably. Will I be happy about it? Not one bit, but I'll accept it.

    I often drink water out of the tap, rather than buying it. This affects bottled water sales.

    Should they stop people drinking out of taps? Yeah probably. Will I be happy about it? Not one bit, but I'll accept it.

    I sometimes think about naughty things, rather than looking at porn. This affects porn sales.

    Should they stop people thinking naughty things? Yeah probably. Will I be happy about it? Not one bit, but I'll accept it.

    (I'm not sure what my point is. Draw your own conclusions...)

  6. From the Salon article... by sweatyboatman · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The Salon article starts out okay; Liebowitz seems pretty level-headed and thoughtful on the subject of file-sharing and its effects on the recording industry. And then they ask him about DRM and he says (among other things):

    DRM, as I see it, is merely the protection in the software, on a CD or whatever, that would allow micro-payments. It doesn't do this yet, but in principle it could. That's what I view as closer to ideal. They can let you do a lot and you pay a higher price, or let you do only a little in which case you'd be paying a lower price.

    I read this with a sinking feeling in my stomach. What do you think he means by "higher" and "lower". In this case, I doubt that the price will be lower than the current cost of music. The record industry doesn't lower prices.

    If DRM with micro-payments is succesfully introduced (read legislated) it wont mean that I pay less for music. The record companies will charge me for my copies. They'll charge me for each time I play it. And though initially I paid 99 cents for that song, after a year, I've payed $5 for that one song and I will keep paying for that song in perpetuity.

    The record industry has a very bad record (no pun intended) at passing along savings to the consumer. The CD was supposed to make the whole process cheaper, lowering prices for the consumer. But that never happened. Instead, the prices went up (which they justified by saying that new technology costs money) and they stayed up.

    So, if they can release music digitally in a way that prevents copying and tracks your use of that music, the price wont drop. It will increase, despite their cost savings on distribution.

    sweat

    --
    It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
  7. Re:Okay let's get the facts straight... by Dephex+Twin · · Score: 4, Interesting
    but there is a different type of evidence: in 1999, Music sales were up 10% in the us, and there wasn't WIDESPREAD piracy. In 2001, for the first time ever, CD sales were down, (by 5%) and the reduction in growth rate only dates to 2000, as pirating began to gain popularity.
    ...
    Of course, in reality, piracy increases music sales, industry is good for the environment, and smoking is good for your health, so this is all irrelevant.

    Of course, everything is black and white and nothing is complicated. So when the music sales went down in 2001, of course the first recession in years after a long economic boom and a drop in the quality of music, as well as people getting increasingly pissed at the music industry couldn't have had anything to do with any of this. It's obvious what was the real cause. No reason to even consider the possibility of anything else.

    mark
    --

    If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. -- Carl Sagan
  8. Pseudo-Libertarian by freeBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm glad you said "mostly" Libertarian because the Cato Institute is the classic example of what I call pseudo-Libertarian.

    True Libertarians are opposed to all threats to our liberty, whether they come from other people, from corporations, or from government. Pseudo-Libertarians are willing to accept any amount of threat to their liberties just so long as they don't come from government. In fact, they are willing to support threats to our liberty from corporations and from wealthy individuals if they can imagine that the government action which would protect us from a real threat to our liberties from business could somehow be construed as a government threat.

    --
    Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
    1. Re:Pseudo-Libertarian by alizard · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Pseudo-Libertarians are willing to accept any amount of threat to their liberties just so long as they don't come from government

      Anyone who reads Declan's politech mailing list or any other list where the Cato Institute frequently releases its propaganda has had his face rubbed in that.

      However, what struck me about the Salon interview is... the poor quality of the thought that underlies the Cato Institute pronouncements. on various issues... the detachment from reality.

      I read the article and kept wondering what rock this guy had been living under for the last few years.

      "and then he tried to transfer the sound to the digital audiotape that he had, and it wouldn't do it. He blamed DRM for that.

      I wrote him back and said, look, be mad at the Digital Home Recording Act. That's what said you can't record from a digital source onto a digital audiotape. It has nothing to do with DRM."

      Being locked out of the use of one's own software and hardware AND intellectual property to protect corporate copyright holders is irrelevant to DRM? What's this guy smoking? I think we all need to know so we can avoid it.

      His comments about fair usage in an academic context... perhaps he hasn't used computers long enough to have gone through changes in digital format, perhaps he thinks that floppies were always 3.5" and CD-Rs were the first portable mass storage.

      Perhaps he really has no clue that a DRM imposed by a company that no longer exists in a legacy media format might make it impossible to access information necessary to legitimate academic research... anything from a masters' thesis to a kid trying to find out what music in the early 21st century sounded like.

      I guess "no clue" is the best way to characterize this guy. Is he typical? I strongly suspect so.

      Why are we taking the pathetic assholes at the Cato Institute seriously?

      Not that they're totally useless, if they happen to support your position on censorship (government ONLY, they don't seem to understand that free-enterprise censorship exists) by all means use them to bolster your position's credibility, when dealing with government officials, if they aren't familiar with the Cato Institute, it might help.

      Just don't take them seriously even if they happen to be on your side.

  9. A synopsis by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here, effectively, is what Stan Liebowitz has just said.

    • I was talking complete horseshit in my last Cato institute paper. My theory was wrong, and didn't agree with figures that were available then that any idiot could have pointed me at. Incidentally, I still don't have any suggestion as to why sales haven't dropped as much as I shrieked that they would; my only real point is that I was totally wrong, and I don't know why.
    • But wait, I have a shiny new bunch of theories based on my latest insights and suppositions! And because I screwed up last time, I'm bound to be right this time! Law of averages, right?
    • And my theory is... wait for it... that rights holders should be able to charge whatever they want, and use any DRM that they want, and the market will take care of everything.
    • I'm done now. When do I get my check?

    And I'm done with listening to egomaniacs like Liebowitz. I'll stick to my Magic 8 Ball for my predictions on how DRM and P2P will turn out. It might not be more accurate than chumps like Liebowitz, but at least it doesn't collect a fat fee every time it spouts a random prediction.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  10. Anyone who wants to understand... by freeBill · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...why this guy is so confused should read Paul Ormerod's book, Butterfly Economics. The book (subtitled "A New General Theory of Social and Economic Behavior") outlines the mathematics which University of Chicago economists broke through the barrier which had prevented others from mathematizing economics.

    All they had to do was assume that all agents (that's you and me) in an economic system had an infinite ability to predict the future prices of goods (and they would all have to agree). Now, these economists didn't actually believe this was true, but they hoped further work with the math would allow them to make simpler, more believable assumptions.

    And further work did just that. Sort of.

    In 1968, it was proven that we could relax those assumptions so that different people could have different opinions about the future state of the world. The only assumption remaining which still flew in the face of common sense: All agents had to have access to an infinite amount of computing power. And it was proven that the math broke down if this requirement was relaxed.

    One might expect that this would mean the theory would be thrown out. But one would be wrong. Because orthodox economic theory requires that markets "clear" in this way.

    And from this orthodox economists have shown that the distribution of wealth and income which emerges from equilibrium markets cannot be altered without making someone else worse off. Which had implications for economic policy which greatly pleased those who were opposed to certain government tax policies and regulatory policies.

    And those people were rich. They funded organizations like The Hoover Institution, The Cato Institute, and Wendy Gramm's Let Enron Rip Off California Institute.

    Unfortunately for the theory, in 1982 David Newbery of Cambridge and Joseph Stiglitz of Princeton proved that in an uncertain world in which the future is allowed to exist, the conclusion that the distribution of income and wealth cannot be altered without harming someone is, in general, not true. Despite this finding, the old result continues to be taught to students the world over.
    --Paul Ormerod

    It is taught because before it was disproved it acquired a strong political following, which included politically motivated private individuals who were willing to fund research which produced the results they wanted produced. So organizations like the Cato Institute have to continue to act as if a theory which rests on absurd assumptions is true, even though we know it is not. If they do not continue to so act, they will stop getting money from wealthy conservatives. That is why the absurd theory was never thrown out.

    All of this would not make much difference except that an alternative set of theories have arisen, which take advantage of more recent developments in the mathematics of non-linear systems. They make no absurd assumptions, and (though incomplete) they do work. See Ormerod's book for more information.

    They new theories do not skew either to conservative or liberal biases. (Ormerod is even more critical of European attempts to micromanage their economies than he is of laissez-faire Reaganism.) One of the results of including non-linear systems into the mix has been the discovery of what is known as the "network effect." Although most of us have experienced the network effect personally, Stan Liebowitz has developed a little mini-career opposing it.

    It turns out there is money in this opposition. Microsoft is willing to pay good money for this obvious nonsense. And it fits right in with Cato's nervousness about a competing theory which does not rest on the absurd assumptions theirs requires.

    Which explains why Liebowitz has no clue as to why CD sales were up while Napster was booming and are down since it was shuttered. The Napster community was a classic network with people sharing their favorite music with others. Sure some used it to avoid purchasing CDs. But far more were able to hear music they might never have found otherwise. Liebowitz cannot afford to see this since it would cut off a lucrative source of income for him to admit the network effect has such power. But the rest of us are under no such limitation.

    When radio came along, record companies said the new technology was so different it would destroy the copyright economy they thrived on; 30 years later they were bribing DJs to play their records. Cassette tapes were similarly attacked. VCRs were supposed to be the end of the movie business; today they are an important part of their bottom line.

    Someday we'll probably see congressional investigations of record companies paying on-line music-sharing services to promote their products. And Stan Liebowitz will still be confused about why his absurd assumptions still don't predict real-world results.

    --
    Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.