Slashdot Mirror
First Virtual Piano Competition
bluegreenone writes: "The New York Times has an article on what may be the first 'virtual' piano competition. One of the judges for the contest being held in St. Paul will actually be in Japan. He will evaluate the performances as relayed by Yamaha's Disklavier system. This has some interest from a technical standpoint, and also raises new questions about what a "live" performance is."
Pah, in brass band comps I've waited an hour until the judges were finished with their comments. Reading their very brief comments later and listening to the tape of the performance, I don't know where the hour of reflection went though :)
Should be noted that this was at the end of all the performers, when the adjudicators were making extra notes based on the tapes etc. So I don't think 30 minutes at the end of a session is out of the question.
?
But the pianist will be responding to the touch and feel of the piano (s)he's actually playing: I know, I'm a pianist. So unless they have an *identical* piano, in *identical* humidity, etc (which is impossible, given the subtleties a really good piano contains), they can't possibly have a 100% accurate reproduction.
The question is, is it accurate *enough* for this purpose? I would claim "no", but I've never seen the system in action.
- Oliver
The right to bear arms is only slightly less stupid than the right to arm bears...
> There are a few things that might not be captured, such as the speed at which a damper is replaced on the strings when a note or the pedal is released. I don't know if the system accurately reproduces this. Certainly MIDI wouldn't.
According to this, it will. It can record both the speed at which the note is triggered as well as it is released. From the specs:
Note Off
Category: Voice
Purpose
Indicates that a particular note should be released. Essentially, this means that the note stops sounding, but some patches might have a long VCA release time that needs to slowly fade the sound out. Additionally, the device's Hold Pedal controller may be on, in which case the note's release is postponed until the Hold Pedal is released. In any event, this message either causes the VCA to move into the release stage, or if the Hold Pedal is on, indicates that the note should be released (by the device automatically) when the Hold Pedal is turned off. If the device is a MultiTimbral unit, then each one of its Parts may respond to Note Offs on its own channel. The Part that responds to a particular Note Off message is the one assigned to the message's MIDI channel.
Status
0x80 to 0x8F where the low nibble is the MIDI channel.
Data
Two data bytes follow the Status.
The first data is the note number. There are 128 possible notes on a MIDI device, numbered 0 to 127 (where Middle C is note number 60). This indicates which note should be released.
The second data byte is the velocity, a value from 0 to 127. This indicates how quickly the note should be released (where 127 is the fastest). It's up to a MIDI device how it uses velocity information. Often velocity will be used to tailor the VCA release time. MIDI devices that can generate Note Off messages, but don't implement velocity features, will transmit Note Off messages with a preset velocity of 64.
Yours truly,
Dave
From this site:
MIDI is an asynchronous serial interface. The baud rate is 31.25 Kbaud ( 1%). There is 1 start bit, 8 data bits, and 1 stop bit (ie, 10 bits total), for a period of 320 microseconds per serial byte.
Dave
In the MIDI specification, it's a 7 bit number, which means 0-127 in decimal, which controls the volume. Hardly infinite. I doubt they're using anything other than MIDI (with Yamaha DiskClavier enhancements, maybe). Some controls like pedalling are 1 bit (on or off) which is nothing like what you can do with real pedals (kinda mostly on but damping a little, etc)... pedalling is a key nuance for most performances.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
Now, being a pianist myself for 13 years of my 18 year life, I think I know something about piano. We truly have lost a sense of our musicality now that we are judging every individual key stroke. Faking a passage? Sorry, even though it sounds good, you still missed that F#, or maybe you cracked hitting that B. I tell you, the masters like Walter Gieseking, Horowitz, Rubinstein, they made SO MANY mistakes, in recordings and performances alike, but nobody criticized it! If those same masters tried a competition today, they wouldn't even get past the preliminary rounds!! We'd be missing out on some of the best music ever made by anybody's fingers! I say, return to the good 'ol Steinway grand, or even a Bosendorfer. Leave the mistakes for the performer to know.
The early player pianos were simple mechanisms. There was no loud and soft controls other than the pedals, so the only way of varying the intensity of the sound was by playing the notes more often. You could not repeat notes too quickly or the roll might tear along the dotted lines, so the players used an octave tremolo style that gave these performances a very distinctive sound. Plus, the machines used to live in bars, so the tuning was sometimes rough, and beer got spilled inside.
Forget them. The Ampico series B used to have 16 levels of force behind the hammers, with separate settings for the 'left hand' and 'right hand' (not individual key control, but not bad for the time). The speed of the hammers was recorded using the spark-gap timing techniques used for measuring bullet velocities, a spin-off from the armament industry for WW1. Stick a roll in one of these beasts, and close your eyes, and it's just like being at a performance. Even a CD player and hedphones has trouble sounding this good. The downside was they cost a few thousand pounds, which in its day would buy you a street of houses.
Recording was not fully automatic. People needed to exercise judgement over how to convert things like the key velocities into the 16 pressure settings. There were also some sequences of rapid notes that could not be reproduced accurately. However, they could play the roll and log the timings, and edit it until the timings got as close as possible to the original performance.
So, is it live? Well, back then they decided there was no risk of duff notes, and you don't have the actual performer present, so it was definately not live, but in some respects it was better. Same would be true today, I guess.
I don't know about its use in virtual concerts, but I have a set of CDs of all 32 of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas that were recorded in a single weekend (that's 10 CDs!) by concert pianist Robert Silverman. Silverman believes the system records his performances with such fidelity that its playback is equivalent to his presence at the keys. I can attest these Sonatas sound wonderful. The engineering behind this piano and recording system is quite a story.
The Bosendorfer technology has also been used in recreating performances by Sergei Rachmaninoff from original player piano rolls on the two CD volumes "Window in Time". It's amazing hearing the great Russian composer and pianist playing his own works (and works of others) on a new CD when he's been dead for almost 60 years.
The most relevant part of the articles to this thread is the descriptions of the problems Lehrman had with the Disklaviers, most significantly the time delays between MIDI input and sound production, and how Yamaha's compensation mechanisms got in the way, a bit. Probably not a problem here, since the competition is based on MIDI files, but still quite interesting. The antheil.org site has links to all sorts of related topics, including player piano music.
(this is not a
The competition's lost one of the judges.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstein
>with a piano roll the keys are either down, or not down
No, you're wrong. Player piano companies (such as Aeolian, Welte-Mignon, and Duo-Art) of the early 20th century worked very hard to make the best reproducing pianos possible, with great dynamic range. A well-maintained player piano can still play the old rolls with tremendous dynamic variation. If all they had was on or off, the great pianists of the day would never have 'recorded' on them.
'Your brain is God.' -- Dr. Timothy Leary
I'll be attending the e-competition both tonight (6:00pm) and tomorrow night (7:30pm). I may attend Sunday, but probably won't. Tomorrow has all the MUST SEE pieces for me. I'm a huge geek and in geek circles, but I've also played the piano for 17.5 years now (I'm 24 now) and none of my geek friends are into this kind of thing. Anyway, I thought it may be fun if a group of cultured slashdotters grab some of the cheaper tickets and split parking expenses. I just called the ticket office and there are plenty available. Can't guarentee if/how this will work out, but I thought I'd send some last-minute feelers out there. Write to piano_e_competition@yahoo.com if interested and I might see you there!
char *mySig;