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Thin Client Handhelds For Multiple OSs

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the strange-ideas-with-limited-value dept.

c0d3po3t writes "An article on CNet tells us that two Singapore programmers have developed a system to allow one handheld operating system to run any application - Windows or Linux. Sounds like a good idea, but will their idea of network emulation be solid?" I can't really see the use for this except environments where your handheld has network access (the system is network based) and you have multiple legacy systems to deal with. It just doesn't sit right beyond the gee-whiz factor for me.

32 of 92 comments (clear)

  1. not a new idea by cr@ckwhore · · Score: 5, Informative

    There has been a VNC client for PalmOS for a while now. I'm not sure about PocketPC, but intuition tells me there is probably a remote access solution like this also.

    http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cf m? prodID=7778

    Not a new idea!

    --
    Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
    1. Re:not a new idea by pipacs · · Score: 2, Informative
      There has been a VNC client for PalmOS for a while now.
      I believe the main idea is to intercept filesystem calls, too, not just graphics. The data is always with you, even if the application isn't.

      Is there an SMB or NFS server for palmtops? One could achieve the same with a file server and a VNC client.

    2. Re:not a new idea by TellarHK · · Score: 2

      Hell, I just traded my Palm IIIc with someone for a Newton MessagePad 2100. Even with an old Newton, I should be able to network wireless or wired, and will be able to run VNC on a screen much larger than a Palm or Pocket PC device. Of course, it is only 16 grayscale, but that should be plenty for actual -business- use.

      From what I've seen on eBay, the Newton's value is quite understated. $50-180 for a MessagePad 2100 with varying quality and addons.

      --
      My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
    3. Re:not a new idea by CaseyB · · Score: 2
      Informative?

      A "fileserver and VNC client" is an utterly useless combination. Why do you want local data if the processing is remote? And what filesystem calls would you intercept? VNC will never make any.

      A lot of clueless people are commenting on this story with only a very hazy sense of what the heck it's about. Business as usual, I guess.

  2. Sun did this... by T.Monk · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sun did this years ago... They called the project "Corona" it was supposed to turn the network into the "bus" and they had drivers for NT, Solaris, Linux, etc... neat trick but at the end of the day, it's just VNC, isn't it?

    1. Re:Sun did this... by 00_NOP · · Score: 5, Interesting

      it's just VNC, isn't it

      No, because the application data here is stored locally, and not on the server. But how much of a difference that will make is open to question as, the data has to be uploaded at the start and downloaded at the end.

  3. Wow by phaze3000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What a great and original idea.

    --
    Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.
  4. Windows & Linux. by crovira · · Score: 2

    One crashes over and over while the other just runs and runs and gets more apps ported to it over time.

    Imagine people being able to compare. Imagine them having a comparison running in the palm of their hand.

    How long do you think people would put up with M$.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
    1. Re:Windows & Linux. by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This will provably get flamed down, but I can't resist playing devil's advocate.

      They'll stick with M$ as long as they have to wade through piles of documentation on how to use the one that keeps running and running in order to actually use it...

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    2. Re:Windows & Linux. by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 2

      "magine people being able to compare. Imagine them having a comparison running in the palm of their hand.

      How long do you think people would put up with M$."

      They never will switch as long as the idiots who decide what to buy continue to fall victim to both their own stupidity (why not listen to your tech staff?) and M$'s flashy marketing and salesdroids.

      Sorry to say, but its probably the truth. At least from what I've seen.

    3. Re:Windows & Linux. by scrytch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They never will switch as long as the idiots who decide what to buy continue to fall victim to both their own stupidity (why not listen to your tech staff?) and M$'s flashy marketing and salesdroids.

      Or as long as they continue to see a culture around Linux that takes every opportunity to insult and abuse them. See, I don't even care if you're right if you can't talk to me like a civilized intelligent human being.

      ... When I hear the words "linux culture" I reach for my revolver ...

      --
      I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
    4. Re:Windows & Linux. by g4dget · · Score: 2

      In my experience, GUI applications for Linux are generally no harder to use than GUI applications for Windows. If anything, some important Windows GUI apps have gotten overly and unnecessary complex, and as a result are harder to use than equivalent, simpler Linux apps.

  5. VNC is available for Symbian OS as well by Subcarrier · · Score: 3, Interesting

    VNC is available for Symbian OS v5.0 and v6.0 devices as well, including the Nokia 9210. Here's the link:

    http://www.imhotek.com/

    --
    "I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them." -- George H. W. Bush
  6. The problem never was... by Jouster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...getting Windows apps to run on Pocket PC. The problem was changing their UI. Think of M$ Word--do you really want three or more toolbars that stretching across 1024 pixels, a menu bar, a status bar, an autoshape bar, and a title bar squished on a 320x320 screen? Of course not.

    Now, if somebody gets technology to dynamically reformat any application's UI into an appropriate format for that presentation device, then I'll start buying. In the meantime, if you don't mind, I'll continue developing ports of my apps under J2ME.

    Jouster

  7. Re:First Post by Col.+Klink+(retired) · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Except that the wireless frequencies interfere with lots of sensitive medical equipment and need to be turned off in a hospital...

    --

    -- Don't Tase me, bro!

  8. Like VNC by peterdaly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    " The secret? The heavy lifting is done on an MXI-based server that runs the actual applications and sends a stream of data back to the MXI client software residing on the handheld. "

    Wow, they reinvented VNC. Cool huh? How did the dnet folks find this one? (yes, that is sarcasm.)

    -Pete

    --
    Soccer Goal Plans
  9. There is a difference about this idea, though by c0d3po3t · · Score: 4, Informative

    You seem to be thinking that this is a mere virtual machine idea like a VNC or pcAnywhere solution - but according to the article the application actually takes system calls for saves, etc. and redirects them over the network to the central server - and it says that a network connection is only required when a full save is required - it caches what the user is doing. VNC stays connected all the time and is subject to network speed and overload - something that this type of idea is not.

    1. Re:There is a difference about this idea, though by CaseyB · · Score: 2
      You seem to be thinking that this is a mere virtual machine idea like a VNC or pcAnywhere solution - but according to the article the application actually takes system calls for saves, etc. and redirects them over the network to the central server - and it says that a network connection is only required when a full save is required - it caches what the user is doing.

      There's no possible way to do that. How much logic is running on Word in between saves? Is your PDA going to run real-time grammar and spelling checks as you type, all locally?

      I imagine that it's a "high level" protocol like RPD, and it was described in comparison to simple VNC-style framebuffer copying, and either the reporter got confused or the authors "embellished" a bit.

    2. Re:There is a difference about this idea, though by k8to · · Score: 2

      ...it says that a network connection is only required when a full save is required - it caches what the user is doing.

      There's no possible way to do that. How much logic is running on Word in between saves? Is your PDA going to run real-time grammar and spelling checks as you type, all locally?

      On the contrary, windows filesharing gives you this "for free". On a real windows box, an open file is often 'owned' by the client due to a SMB optlock, or opportunistic lock. Piddly reads and writes to the file are cached to the client, and the entire summation of changes is sent back to the server when the file is closed, or the lock broken by the server, or on some other such event. This allows the terrible terrible code of MSOffice to still have some level of performance. It's actually a very powerful (and somewhat dangerous) performance feature, the best part of SMB really.

      It could be that these folks are trying to talk about something else, but claiming their words aren't possible is silly as every windows client does this.

      --
      -josh
    3. Re:There is a difference about this idea, though by CaseyB · · Score: 2
      On the contrary, windows filesharing gives you this "for free".

      How does filesharing give a PDA the ability to run arbitrary code compiled for an aribitrary OS on an arbitrary CPU "for free"?

      Optimizing file access is a negligible part of the problem. It's the logic that has to run on a "detached" client that is impossible to distribute easily.

  10. Re:A desperate plea for help by SirSlud · · Score: 2

    Lol, "I wish /. had something similar to a general forum for stuff like this" .. you mean like, as referenced in your sig, your Journal?

    Just make your sig "A desperate plea for help", link to your journal, and make a few on-topic posts with all the requisite buzzwords. Problem solved!

    --
    "Old man yells at systemd"
  11. Wireless blackouts? by Nomad7674 · · Score: 2

    My problem is that this PDA ideas seems to assume 100% uptime of your wireless connectivity. In order to save a document or intercept many of the calls Word would demand, you would need to be connected to a wireless server each time. I have an Apple Airport network at home which is about as easy to use as they come. But even that has blackout points in the house, where construction or atmospheric conditions make it impossible to get a solid signal. How much worse would this be for a subway commuter or rural user who could have blackouts for minutes or hours at a time?

    Seems like it would be easier AND more reliable just to use a Tablet PC, OQO, or similar device.

    1. Re:Wireless blackouts? by morcheeba · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > But even that has blackout points in the house, where construction or atmospheric conditions make it impossible to get a solid signal

      Your house is so big that it has its own atmospheric conditions?? Like, if it's raining in the living room, you can always move to the family room where it's still sunny?

      --
      HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
    2. Re:Wireless blackouts? by Nomad7674 · · Score: 2

      If you think the house sounds big, you should see the yard. Our mailbox is in a different zip code than the house. ;-)

      Gotta hate it when grammar comes back to bite you.

  12. Re:impressive by mccalli · · Score: 2, Insightful
    this will allow people to replace Windows clients with more cost-effective Linux ones....And no matter how you look at it, that's a win.

    What if you look at it from Bill Gate's point of view...?

    Cheers,
    Ian

  13. Not a killer app by 00_NOP · · Score: 2

    Anyone who has used X over a 28.8 line will tell you that it's possible but it's not pretty. I am not convinced that this will be much better.

    I could see that some big corporates might like something like this - but I am not sure it has a wider market awaiting it.

  14. Wow! X12! by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Both the slashdot and the cnet article are very misleading. They do _not_ run applications on the handheld, they run applications on the handheld and a server, having the server do all the heavy work (notably OS calls). While not exactly the same as X11, it is strikingly similar.

    MXI (that's what they call their system) has a couple of advantages over X. First of all, it doesn't require huge amounts of bandwidth. Secondly, the cnet-article claims that ``people can edit a document without being online.'' This suggests a system which is far more sophisticated than X. However, I doubt if it will be possible to _start_ applications without being connected. Anyway, I will stick to picogui for the time being. It has network transparency like X, but talks widgets rather than pixels, saving tons of bandwidth, and was specifically designed for handhelds, although it has potential on desktops, too.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  15. Re:Dodgy by shaldannon · · Score: 2

    I guess it's sort of believable...theoretically you can do the same thing (natively) with a Crusoe chip. What I have a hard time believing is that you can store this new "run anything" OS (how does it handle Mac programs? Palm? *NIX? Be? ...?) and the software, and the runtime libraries, etc., and that file storage is actually seamless and transparent. My take is that they might have a proof of concept for some limited applications, but I'd love to see what happens when they let an independent person give the thing a spin in a real-world environment. Besides which, I don't see the utility of doing this. The whole point of a handheld is to do mobile tasks...schedule, planning, task list, contact list, finance, and a few cheap games. Laptops were designed for mobile application computing, not handhelds.

    --


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  16. WTF?? Merger ?? by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 2
    The URL of the story is: http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1040-936665.html?ty pe=pt&part=msnbc&tag=alert&form=feed&subj=cnetnews

    Did MSNBC acquire CNet when I wasn't looking?

  17. I doubt it is anything more than a high-tech gadge by rector · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I doubt that at the present technological level this system can be of any use except owning a high-tech gadget. Simple applications like primitive text editors (wordpad etc) will work fine. But a palm-based (or Win CE -based) editor is anyway more convenient on a small screen. More demanding applications like editing embedded objects in MS Word (that is pictures, math formulae etc.) can be slow even on a desktop. And running such an application effectively on a handheld (otherwise how will you edit a document offline? It is claimed to be possible in the article.) should be at least terribly slow if possible at all.

  18. Another company is already doing this... by markana · · Score: 2, Informative

    There's a Seattle-area software shop (http://www.sproqit.com/) already doing exactly this, including caching document changes. So this isn't exactly a revolutionary idea...

  19. Wow, they can make flash presentations! by nodvin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Gone are the days when a flash presentation can fund your company!