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Bringing Echelon In From the Cold
An anonymous reader writes: "UPI columnist James C. Bennett says that governments are going to spy no matter what. So he suggests that it would be better to admit that Echelon exists, and formulate some reasonable guidelines on such spying, than to pretend that it doesn't and let governments go about their business without any scrutiny. Interesting suggestion. But who will watch those watchers? And who will watch them? "
The watchers of those watching the watchers can be watched by the watchers themselves, thus guaranteeing that all the watchers, even the watchers OF the watchers, are watched. Then, just in case, we can have some watchers of the watchers of the watchers of the watchers, making sure everything goes smoothly.
using namespace slashdot;
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There has always been a "Big Brother" in every medium (tcp/ip, radio frequencies, etc..). There has always been a way for someone to listen on to communications that was not destined to them.
Independent of what the latest craze is and what name it's given, it's a sniffer and it will sniff stuff. All people gotta do is make sure that what it DOES sniff is garbage to everyone except for the final recipient (PGP for email anyone ? The same pub+private key encryption can apply to just about anything digital).
The philosophy of openness is nice, but somehow I don't think the "Intelligence Community" will buy it, without something fairly spectacular in return. . . . .
However, I am forced to question why the public suddenly cries out for oversight of Echelon and other NSA/CIA/FBI counterterrorism operations. Where are the victims of rogue G-men? Why have I never seen a single credible complaint against these intelligence agencies for violation of privacy? In other words, what's the harm of allowing them to intercept the transmissions that they intercept, if at best they are keeping us safer and at worst they are doing nothing at all? Obviously this isn't a monetary argument, as nobody actually knows what the NSA's budget is. To paraphrase Lisa Simpson - if a tree can hear everything you say, but it doesn't tell anyone you know, does it make a sound? The good Lord can hear you having phone sex on those 976 lines you call, so why does it matter if some government agent you'll never even meet can hear you too?
Although I don't want to be monitored, I'll gladly give up the right to complete privacy to stop the chance of a single future terrorist attack. After all, if we have nothing to hide and are not stigmatized for what we say in private, what does it matter who's listening?
WTC Survivor
What exactly can be done when the 'rules' of spying are not followed? Obviously, the game of intel/counter-intel is so secretive, that open trials for those breaking laws would be next to impossible. Military tribunals are probably unconstitutional for domestic spies. Better yet, how do you prosecute someone whose rule-breaking probably saved hundreds of lives? The overall question here is how does the intelligence community fit in with the ideals of any given country. Obviously, in the USA, this is embodied in our Constitution. So how does the intelligence community fit in with the Constitution, and how can it work effectively without crossing the line into illegal searches and other Constitutional violations?
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
It would seem to me that the Echelon system has worked well at its intended purpose since its inception, that is, collecting and sorting through reams upon reams of data. Since little is known about its actual operation, this statement may or may not be accurate. Hence, the "it would seem to me" part.
I digress; what I think really needs the watching and oversight is not what information is collected, but how that information is used by people with power. The scariest part about the whole post-September 11th security whackabout is how the US government has arrested and held hundreds without charge, essentially incommunicado (and I'm not talking about the Taliban and Al-Qaeda people in Cuba).
To me, the fact that my conversations may or may not be monitored is not particularly scary - after all, Echelon seems to have been around longer than me, and though I can't be certain, I'd say I and millions of others in the Western world have benefitted more from it than we have been harmed.
But being held without charge indefinitely by the government of a country that can't stop talking about how democratic it is? This sort of violation of basic human rights scares the crap out of me; the invasion of my privacy wrought by Echelon is peanuts in comparison.
What on earth has this to do with Echelon? It is a problem that comes with any situation where someone needs to have someone watching over someone else, i.e most governmental activity.
Rather, the problem is of course that admitting the existence of Echelon is the same as legitimizing it, which for obvious reasons isn't the best idea in the world. It would probably be helpful for those European guys trying to figure out what the hell is going on though...
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
Out of curiosity, why does it matter if "they" spy on you? Who's really going to care if you buy a copy of the South Park movie from Amazon? Or if you get some caffeinated soap from Think Geek? Or any of that. There's so much communication traffic in the world that for someone to pay a particular interest to you you'd have to be subscribing to the Child Porn for Mad Bombers Who Want to Poison Drinking Water with Alfalfa mailing list. Or some such nonsense. It's crazy to assume that anyone cares about what you write to someone in an email. Hell, you could send emails saying the president's a bastard and someone should off him. If you're starting to research into buying a Cesna and getting a pilot's license and begin looking for some C4 or the such then they should be looking into you. Otherwise who's going to care? The FBI/CIA/Uber secret agency you never heard of isn't gonna waste time looking at you. Time is money, after all. The US works because when things get too big and worrisome then people find out about it and things percolate through the news. If you worry about privacy then why not worry about the checker at your grocery store who sees you buy a certain deodorant or maybe some fungal cream. He or she now knows what you smell like and that you've got nasty feet. That's an invasion of privacy in essence and possibly more embarrasing than having some FBI guy who never met you and likely never will knowing that you subscribe to some porno sites (not that an agent would likely even see such a thing unless you had a lot of red flags against you to begin with in which case, once again, I personally feel secure knowing that they are looking into you). That's just my thoughts on it though
...Sigh...Moderators, please note parent (whom obviously has an auspicious amount of Karma) failed to mention Echelon at all in his post. Actually, you know what the parent reminds me of?
It is official; Shanghai Newspaper confirms: Western Civilization is dying!!!
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered Western Civilization community when Al-Jazeera TV confirmed that Western Civilization market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of the World Culture Market. Coming on the heels of a recent Beijing Times study that points to the implosion of Western Civilization, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along: Western Civilization is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by these last ditch attempts to maintain "control" over an increasingly restless populace.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Western Civilization's future. The hand writing is on the Eastern-styled wall: Western Civilization faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Western Civilization because Western Civilization is dying. Things are looking very bad for Western Civilization. As many of us are already aware, and this story further demonstrates, Western Civilization continues to lose the trust of its citizens. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
All major surveys show that Western Civilization has steadily declined in market share. Western Civilization is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Western Civilization is to survive at all it will be among academic dilettante dabblers that survived the horrible asteroid strike. Western Civilization continues to expand, and will eventually implode into a forgotten footprint on History. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Western Civilization is dead.
Fact: Western Civilization is dying
With apoligies to Trolls Everywhere
I'm a libertarian, and I strongly value the important of our freedom of speech rights. That, however, does not mean we should have fifteen layers of Oversight.
Anyone here watch La Femme Nikita? Well, gee, lets see, there was Section, which was the anti-terrorist organization. Then there was Oversight, which was supposed to watch over Section and make sure everything was going alright. Then there was Center, which was supposed to make sure that everything was going ok in Oversight and Section. Then there was The Agency, which was supposed to make sure everything was going fine in Center, Oversight, and Section.
Do you see my point? We should not have a zillion layers over oversight -- watchers upon watchers upon watchers upon watchers, etc. Bad idea. That just means higher taxes, more beurocracy, less efficiency, and less accountability.
What you need is checks and balances, like the three government branches set up, as well as electability, and amendments.
In our government, the legislative, executive, and judicial branches all put checks and balances on each-other. Meanwhile, we the people, elect the legislative and executive branches, and in some cases, parts of the judicial branches (i.e., local judges).
Meanwhile, there is this little thing called The Constitution and The Amendments, which gaurentee that no branch goes way overboard; thus, protecting (sort of) our rights. Its not perfect, but its decent.
The same thing should be set up for government spying and information gathering.
The problem with our system isn't the system itself, but the implementation of the system, where there are layers upon layers of beurocratic bullshit, and where varioius government officials are bought off and paid for by organizations like the RIAA, MPAA, BSA, etc.
So what's needed is two things: (1) Eliminate the beurocratic bullshit; (2) Get serious on political contributions, bribes, blackmail, etc.
Only these two things, and our system would be much better? Well, for the most part, yes. It wouldn't deal with Christian Conservative idiots getting elected who think that the worst crime on earth is homosexuality and prostitution, and who think that the purple teletubby is gay, and who also believe that we should all be brainwashed in school to be Christians. But it would deal with alot of problems.
Of course, accomplishing those two things -- eliminating hte beurocratic bullshit and dealing with politicians being owned -- is a difficult goal. To eliminate beurocratic BS, you have to destroy useless organizations and eliminate useless positions -- something w/c is not favored by some of those in power b/c they'd be put out of a job. To stop politicians from being owned, you'd have to eliminate political campaign contributions -- something w/c politicians won't like as it won't help them get elected, and will actually allow people other than Democrats and Republican's to win.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Ok, lets say you regulate Echelon after it will be disclosed. So what exactly prevents them from setting up another system that won't be regulated? Seems to me like a vain task :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
If the Government has time to read all my e-mail can the summarise it and forward it back to me?
For instance, Exec. Order No. 12333, 3 C.F.R. 200 (1982), The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, 50 U.S.C., and the executive orders founding the NSA and the post-Nixon limits on what can be done with intercepts of "US Persons" no matter where they are talking.
The relevant portion of the laws state:
A deference to U.S. persons' rights by closely regulating the conduct of electronic surveillance that either targets U.S. persons or may result in the acquisition of information to, from, or about U.S. persons. For example, in order to conduct electronic surveillance against a U.S. person located within the United States, FISA requires the intelligence agency to obtain a court order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. If the United States person is abroad, the Executive Order requires that the Attorney General approve such surveillance. In both instances, generally speaking there must be probable cause that the target is an agent of a foreign power. In addition, the information sought by the surveillance must be foreign intelligence that cannot be obtained by other less intrusive collection techniques. Furthermore, even if a U.S. person is not the target, all foreign intelligence electronic surveillance must be conducted in a manner that minimizes the acquisition, retention, and dissemination of information about unconsenting U.S. persons.
,br> I worked there over a decade ago as a cryptanalyst, and it was deadly serious business if you intercepted a US person, even by accident. Reports were written, and people were debriefed on the circumstance, but not the content. The content and any sources for the error were destroyed. Talking mag erasor then burn bag for the media.
IMHO you are being paranoid beyond reason simply because you are ignorant of what the truth is. I've been in the belly of the leviathan, and its nowhere as malevolent as you make it out to be. People like you work there, and they are all reminded of their primary oath, which is to uphold and defend the Constitution. And even if there were to be some rogues, all it takes is a few honest people to expose them - the agency was gutted from within during hte Nixon crisis by people who knew that we shoul not be operating against US persons that weree not legitimate intelligence targets. Beleive me, its not the cowboy agency that it was under Nixon, when a lot of the abuses took place. Its not even as good as it was under Reagan - they do not have the staff to handle analysis of all intercepts, so excluding things they cannot legally touch is not only the right thing to do, it also promotes better function of the entire process. And these very laws and situations were heavily emphasised to us during indoctrination. It was our duty to uphold these laws, and we took that duty damned seriously.
There may have been some erosion of ethical standards this during the Clinton years with the "loose" ethics flowing down from the CINC, but there are a lot of stiff necked old spooks that would never let this crpa happen to the agency again like it almost did in the agency after Nixon. And before you keep on eating the BS about Reagan being a "fascist", consider that the only reason you have the protections you do now is due to a series of orders he issued because he did not trust government to regulate itself well when it involvedthe fundamental (4th amendment in this instance) rights of Americans.
Read Jim Bamford's "Puzzle Palace" if you want a good idea of how close things came in the early 70's when there was really nobody except the NSA wathcing itself - and how the NSA corrected itself with the changes to law and executive orders that are the basis of the existence of the agency.
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