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Bringing Echelon In From the Cold
An anonymous reader writes: "UPI columnist James C. Bennett says that governments are going to spy no matter what. So he suggests that it would be better to admit that Echelon exists, and formulate some reasonable guidelines on such spying, than to pretend that it doesn't and let governments go about their business without any scrutiny. Interesting suggestion. But who will watch those watchers? And who will watch them? "
The watchers of those watching the watchers can be watched by the watchers themselves, thus guaranteeing that all the watchers, even the watchers OF the watchers, are watched. Then, just in case, we can have some watchers of the watchers of the watchers of the watchers, making sure everything goes smoothly.
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There has always been a "Big Brother" in every medium (tcp/ip, radio frequencies, etc..). There has always been a way for someone to listen on to communications that was not destined to them.
Independent of what the latest craze is and what name it's given, it's a sniffer and it will sniff stuff. All people gotta do is make sure that what it DOES sniff is garbage to everyone except for the final recipient (PGP for email anyone ? The same pub+private key encryption can apply to just about anything digital).
The philosophy of openness is nice, but somehow I don't think the "Intelligence Community" will buy it, without something fairly spectacular in return. . . . .
It would seem to me that the Echelon system has worked well at its intended purpose since its inception, that is, collecting and sorting through reams upon reams of data. Since little is known about its actual operation, this statement may or may not be accurate. Hence, the "it would seem to me" part.
I digress; what I think really needs the watching and oversight is not what information is collected, but how that information is used by people with power. The scariest part about the whole post-September 11th security whackabout is how the US government has arrested and held hundreds without charge, essentially incommunicado (and I'm not talking about the Taliban and Al-Qaeda people in Cuba).
To me, the fact that my conversations may or may not be monitored is not particularly scary - after all, Echelon seems to have been around longer than me, and though I can't be certain, I'd say I and millions of others in the Western world have benefitted more from it than we have been harmed.
But being held without charge indefinitely by the government of a country that can't stop talking about how democratic it is? This sort of violation of basic human rights scares the crap out of me; the invasion of my privacy wrought by Echelon is peanuts in comparison.
Oh, You mean this these?
abbie hoffman fbi files
adolph hitler fbi files
al capone fbi files
albert einstein fbi files
amelia earhart fbi/navy/state dept. files
bugsy siegel fbi files
cesar chavez/united farm workers fbi files
charlie chaplin fbi files
dwight d. eisenhower presidential papers
eleanor roosevelt fbi files
elvis presley fbi files
ernest hemingway fbi files
frank sinatra fbi files
franklin d. roosevelt presidential papers
gerald r. ford presidential papers
harry s. truman presidential papers
huey p. long fbi files
hugh hefner/playboy fbi files
j. edgar hoover fbi files
jackie robinson fbi files
john kennedy-jacqueline fbi/secret service/cia/nsa and other files
john lennon fbi files
john steinbeck fbi files
joseph mccarthy fbi files
joseph p. kennedy fbi files
josephine baker fbi files
leon trotsky fbi files
lucille ball/desi arnaz fbi files
lucky luciano fbi files
mafia monograph fbi files
malcolm x fbi files
marilyn monroe fbi files
martin luther king jr. fbi files
nelson rockefeller fbi files
oleg penkovsky - soviet double agent - cia files
pablo picasso fbi files
paul robeson fbi files
richard nathaniel wright fbi files
robert f. kennedy fbi files
ronald reagan presidential papers
spiro agnew fbi files
susan b. anthony historical documents
thurgood marshall fbi files
w.e.b. dubois fbi files
wallace d. fard/nation of islam fbi files
walt disney fbi files
walter winchell fbi files
watergate fbi files/nixon recordings and transcripts
wright brothers photography
I'm glad they were keeping tabs on people like W.E.B Dubois, Pablo Picasso, and Susan B Anthony. If we allow people to think for themselves and lead other people to think for themselves, the terrorists have already won.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I'm a libertarian, and I strongly value the important of our freedom of speech rights. That, however, does not mean we should have fifteen layers of Oversight.
Anyone here watch La Femme Nikita? Well, gee, lets see, there was Section, which was the anti-terrorist organization. Then there was Oversight, which was supposed to watch over Section and make sure everything was going alright. Then there was Center, which was supposed to make sure that everything was going ok in Oversight and Section. Then there was The Agency, which was supposed to make sure everything was going fine in Center, Oversight, and Section.
Do you see my point? We should not have a zillion layers over oversight -- watchers upon watchers upon watchers upon watchers, etc. Bad idea. That just means higher taxes, more beurocracy, less efficiency, and less accountability.
What you need is checks and balances, like the three government branches set up, as well as electability, and amendments.
In our government, the legislative, executive, and judicial branches all put checks and balances on each-other. Meanwhile, we the people, elect the legislative and executive branches, and in some cases, parts of the judicial branches (i.e., local judges).
Meanwhile, there is this little thing called The Constitution and The Amendments, which gaurentee that no branch goes way overboard; thus, protecting (sort of) our rights. Its not perfect, but its decent.
The same thing should be set up for government spying and information gathering.
The problem with our system isn't the system itself, but the implementation of the system, where there are layers upon layers of beurocratic bullshit, and where varioius government officials are bought off and paid for by organizations like the RIAA, MPAA, BSA, etc.
So what's needed is two things: (1) Eliminate the beurocratic bullshit; (2) Get serious on political contributions, bribes, blackmail, etc.
Only these two things, and our system would be much better? Well, for the most part, yes. It wouldn't deal with Christian Conservative idiots getting elected who think that the worst crime on earth is homosexuality and prostitution, and who think that the purple teletubby is gay, and who also believe that we should all be brainwashed in school to be Christians. But it would deal with alot of problems.
Of course, accomplishing those two things -- eliminating hte beurocratic bullshit and dealing with politicians being owned -- is a difficult goal. To eliminate beurocratic BS, you have to destroy useless organizations and eliminate useless positions -- something w/c is not favored by some of those in power b/c they'd be put out of a job. To stop politicians from being owned, you'd have to eliminate political campaign contributions -- something w/c politicians won't like as it won't help them get elected, and will actually allow people other than Democrats and Republican's to win.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
For instance, Exec. Order No. 12333, 3 C.F.R. 200 (1982), The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, 50 U.S.C., and the executive orders founding the NSA and the post-Nixon limits on what can be done with intercepts of "US Persons" no matter where they are talking.
The relevant portion of the laws state:
A deference to U.S. persons' rights by closely regulating the conduct of electronic surveillance that either targets U.S. persons or may result in the acquisition of information to, from, or about U.S. persons. For example, in order to conduct electronic surveillance against a U.S. person located within the United States, FISA requires the intelligence agency to obtain a court order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. If the United States person is abroad, the Executive Order requires that the Attorney General approve such surveillance. In both instances, generally speaking there must be probable cause that the target is an agent of a foreign power. In addition, the information sought by the surveillance must be foreign intelligence that cannot be obtained by other less intrusive collection techniques. Furthermore, even if a U.S. person is not the target, all foreign intelligence electronic surveillance must be conducted in a manner that minimizes the acquisition, retention, and dissemination of information about unconsenting U.S. persons.
,br> I worked there over a decade ago as a cryptanalyst, and it was deadly serious business if you intercepted a US person, even by accident. Reports were written, and people were debriefed on the circumstance, but not the content. The content and any sources for the error were destroyed. Talking mag erasor then burn bag for the media.
IMHO you are being paranoid beyond reason simply because you are ignorant of what the truth is. I've been in the belly of the leviathan, and its nowhere as malevolent as you make it out to be. People like you work there, and they are all reminded of their primary oath, which is to uphold and defend the Constitution. And even if there were to be some rogues, all it takes is a few honest people to expose them - the agency was gutted from within during hte Nixon crisis by people who knew that we shoul not be operating against US persons that weree not legitimate intelligence targets. Beleive me, its not the cowboy agency that it was under Nixon, when a lot of the abuses took place. Its not even as good as it was under Reagan - they do not have the staff to handle analysis of all intercepts, so excluding things they cannot legally touch is not only the right thing to do, it also promotes better function of the entire process. And these very laws and situations were heavily emphasised to us during indoctrination. It was our duty to uphold these laws, and we took that duty damned seriously.
There may have been some erosion of ethical standards this during the Clinton years with the "loose" ethics flowing down from the CINC, but there are a lot of stiff necked old spooks that would never let this crpa happen to the agency again like it almost did in the agency after Nixon. And before you keep on eating the BS about Reagan being a "fascist", consider that the only reason you have the protections you do now is due to a series of orders he issued because he did not trust government to regulate itself well when it involvedthe fundamental (4th amendment in this instance) rights of Americans.
Read Jim Bamford's "Puzzle Palace" if you want a good idea of how close things came in the early 70's when there was really nobody except the NSA wathcing itself - and how the NSA corrected itself with the changes to law and executive orders that are the basis of the existence of the agency.
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