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Lindows - What do Linux Users Really Think?
Harry asks: "Last week I had a laps in judgement and subscribed to the Lindows Insider program. After playing with Lindows for a few days, I decided that Lindows was not worth my trouble and un-subscribed from the program. When I did so, I mentioned my disappointments and requested that they take a survey on Slashdot to see what Linux users really thought of their product. They stated they did and received 'great results and mostly positive feedback.' After having a chance to play with Lindows, I can not believe this to be true. So, my question is: What do Linux users really think of Lindows and will they support it?"
I'm not aware of any such poll (maybe I missed it) and I don't remember many glowing reviews from our previous stories on Lindows. So maybe it's time to get the answer straight from the horses' mouth. Do you think Lindows is worth it?
Now I can root your box in record time!
seriouslyexcited.net
Running your whole system as root is a BAD thing! I don't know if this has changed since the first preview-release, but to have no choice but to run as root is a crazy desicion!
Lindows will be/is a security nightmare!
IMHO, the only good thing that can come out of Lindows is if they contribute some of their patches to WINE or Rewind...
My other account has a 3-digit UID.
If Lindows can make money on selling Lindows, its worth it. It doesn't matter what I think. I will probably not touch it.
:-)
If they make money of it, some of those money will get funneled back into the community. If they don't make money of it, well, it'll give the difficult linux crowd some more bad publicity when it comes to 'how difficult we are to make money of' - but that really doesn't bother me..
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
One of the great features about Linux is that it has nothing to do with Windows. I'm not even gonna touch Lindows with a stick!
'great results and mostly positive feedback.'
... I'm sorry, but I just don't see Lindows being successful. Do I even consider Lindows Linux? Not really.
Nice marketing spin
Does any sane Linux user think that a distribution where the user runs with root priviledges is a good idea? No. When I read this I though it was some kind of joke. Just what we need, users hosing their own system because their distributor not only gave them a loaded gun, but put it in their mouth for them.
Let's have a look at their FAQ Section:
The Lindows.com Insider program is designed to be exclusive to the individual that signs up. As an Insider member, we ask that you not distribute copies of the LindowsOS to other individuals and that you abide by the end user license agreement that comes with our software.
Cluestick - If we wanted crappy licensing agreements, we would be running Windows.
There are two types End User License Agreements:
1. A "Family" End-User
This license if for an individual end-user and he/she agrees to use LindowsOS for personal use and is to be used only by members of the End-User's Family.
2. A "Business" End-User
This type of license is for an agreed upon number of simultaneous users or seats(computer systems), but not both.
You can read the EULA (End User License Agreement) in its entirety here.
Cluestick: Once again, if I get stuck with these contstraints, (let's call this, non-free), then why am I using Lindows? Linux is about freedom (speech, not beer), why am I tying myself down like this? This is Caldera-think. If my enterprise runs Linux, I just want to pay $X a year to Suse/Redhat/IBM for support. Sitting there counting boxes to figure out how many licenses you should pay for is a big reason to avoid close source software in the first place.
Lindows.com respects all applicable licensing and is proud to be a strong supporter of the Open Source community by helping to advance several Open Source initiatives. We are financially supporting several open source organizations.
Cluestick: Wine, anything else? You can't just say 'strong supporter of the Open Source Community.' Hell, I'm sitting here drinking a soda, I think of myself as a strong supporter too. Compare this with, let's say Redhat: Off the top of my head. Gnome, Apache, Mozilla, and gcc. That's a strong supporter of the OSS community.
Anyone else disappointed with the Walmart 'win' this company gained? No thanks, my vote is for "this company does not represent Linux or the Linux community".
Look here and the winner is "Apathy" not strong "pro" or strong "hate", just plain, boring apathy.
Get the EULA T-shirt
People are going to get this thing, thinking its finally a version of linux that runs windows apps well. But its not! Its reputation will affect linux too. I wish it never came about. What is wrong with debian? Theres lots of other points I hate about Lindows, its name, the way it charges to download free software, debian does this already but it works better and its free! I also hate the way it runs as root.
I believe this is a Microsoft project actually, to get people going away from linux and back to windows.
I hate it so much, I slam it every chance I get to people who ask me about linux.
I haven't tried Lindows yet, and to be honest, I'm not likely to - it's not aimed at me (nor, I think, at the majority of Slashdot readers). The people it is aimed at are current Windows users who want an option they can switch to with as little hassle as possible, and the ability to continue to run their existing software. And from what I've heard, it does that admirably.
I have a friend who slots very nicely into that category, and he has just installed Lindows on his PC. He loves it. He loves that it took less effort to install even than Windows did. He loves that it still runs the apps he's used to. He loves that it isn't Windows.
And that's the point: This is not aimed at the Linux crowd; it's aimed at the reluctant Windows crowd, with the aim of turning them into the Linux crowd: once they've found their feet with Lindows, they can start trying out genuine Linux software, and hopefully from there they can get into Linux properly.
Don't begrudge it for what it is - some people (even some pretty smart people) need a little hand-holding when it comes to Linux, and Lindows is doing a good job.
(Spudley Strikes Again!)
The real question is, "What do Windows users think? Will it switch them?"
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Lindows has always had a big BS factor to it. Absurd claims of Windows compatibility. Silly gimmicks with licensing and fees. Now they've conned WalMart into thinking it's something they can sell to people who'd otherwise use Windows. Which is actually a good thing, since this will blow up in their faces, they'll go out of busines, and we can talk about something else.
as far as i can tell, the slashdot crowd is not the lindows target market. most /.'ers can install an os by themselves. they can even set up an x86 box to host multiple operating systems.
aside from the novelty factor of running one more os, there is very little need of lindows here. i can be productive in either linux or windows and i don't need a kludge to bring them together.
(for the few times when i need a windows program to run in linux, i can configure wine by myself too.)
If 'Michael's Minutes' plopping into my inbox every other day wasn't annoying enough...
They come out with the meraculous feature of installing software in one click. No, not one click in the installer... one click in your web browser and the RPM of your choice is downloaded and installed automagicly. Does that scare the hell out of anyone else?
Great. Now it will be so much simpler to rootkit the machines on demo at Wal-Mart.
\
symetrix. We are building a religion, a limited edition.
As a longtime user of Linux, "easy-to-use" Unices like NeXTSTEP, OpenStep, Rhapsody and more recently Mac OS X, Mac OS Classic, and (unfortunately) Windows, here's my take. I've not used it, but these are my impressions.
;P
Frankly, I'm not sure what the big deal is. Lindows claims more ease of use than your average GNU/Linux distro and Windows compatibility. Having used a couple truly 'user-friendly' (subjective, yes) Unices, I can safely say the experience KDE and GNOME (to a lesser extent) provides is nice as long as you don't do certain things. When you do these things, the user-friendly-ness and consistency of environment breaks down. Even though Linux is my primary OS, it's something that has bothered me about Linux for a long time. Inconsistency.
So in short, Lindows suffers from many of the same inconsistecnies as any other KDE or GNOME- based distro.
I can't imagine it being as "easy" as Windows. Even if it were on the level with WinDOS, that isn't saying much.
But I'm pragmatic. So I don't hate Lindows for Licensing issues.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I don't know whether they (the Lindows people) specifically said they had polled /. or not. I know I received e-mail from them asking to take a poll.
/. readers think of Lindows. This is an OS intended for people with a large base of Win32 apps who want to stop using Windoze. It's not intended for users of Linux/BSD/Unix varients.
/. forget that while this group is highly technically oriented, many people use a computer as a tool to do other work. For such people, Lindows may be a Very Good Thing.
I think there is a fundamental problem here. It does not matter what
I've read many comments and articles here on Lindows and, while a few actually catch this, most people on
The first criticism I usually see in any Lindows discussion here is the comment that it's stupid to run any system as root. That is true for a Linux system, but this comment itself shows the prejudice many of us have that is so ingrained we don't see it -- we are looking at it only from one point of view -- that of the techinically oriented. This comment in itself shows we are fogetting Lindows is emulating a system where most people don't even log in -- where anybody who turns on the computer has the equivalent of root access.
It doesn't matter what we think. Lindows is not aimed at us. On the other hand, Lindows just may be the thing that breaks the monopoly open and makes it easier for other operating systems to find a larger piece of the market share.
And more market share is a good thing (unless you're a Linux user who is a bit of a snob and wants to be using an OS not many people overall use because it allows you to be a techie snob/snot and look down your nose at others who may be very intelligent, but not knowledgable in the same areas you are).
You've got it backwards. How can they "sustain revenue" in a mass market channel like WalMart if they don't already have Win98 compatibility?
I'd suggest MacOS, but even they've been comprimised. Most Macs are sold with 101 keyboards these days. And guess who's the leading app software vendor for the platform?
You need an OS that was discontinued before it had a chance to be influenced by the Redmond Horror. I've got an Apple II I'll let you have real cheap!
Now will I go out and buy a Lindows machine? Probably not, but if they say that they can run Word and Office and Powerpoint and serveral other programs like that then I may recommend it to a friend as an alternative to windows.
Only 'flamers' flame!
You can be as critical as you wish about the Lindows version of linux.
But, at least they are trying very hard to put linux on the desktop. Most other linux distros only pay it lip service (if that).
RedHat has pretty much said it is just not interested. And, their product shows it. Lindows on the other hand is focused upon the desktop and if you want a server OS they are glad to refer you to RedHat or others.
Xandros is another company that is focused upon linux for the desktop. (Actually, Lindows is based upon Xandros but it is not clear just how much of the Xandros distribution will be included in Lindows.)
Xandros, taken from the Corel Linux 3rd distro (not publicly released) at least tries very hard to make networking with windows systems easy. RedHat ignores the problem. Even Mandrake only offers a rather sickly ability to network. Oh sure, they all use Samba. But, Samba is similar to the old DOS based server/redirector crap that is all but impossible for regular people to use.
Xandros offers networking equivilent to Windows Explorer. Just right-click and pick "sharing". Mandrake hides how to accomplish the same.
How will Lindows do it?
Not sure. The version currently being included with some Wal-mart systems (SPX) is a bit of a pre-release. Even so it is better than many versions sold in the millions by Microsoft only a few years ago. And, for many it is easier to install than the Micorosoft crap is today.
The ability to run applications written for the Microsoft systems is important for many users. At least for those who already have such applications but may want to try out linux. And, getting consumers into thinking of alternatives can do wonders. Why don't they just pick up Mandrake or RedHat and grap OpenOffice, etc.? Some will.
And, when Xandros can release their distro a very easy to use distro will also network right along side the Microsoft boxes. Sorry, but Corel Linux 1st was easier to network than any other linux distro since then. And, that is 3-4 years ago.
Linux on the desktop will take off once the distro companies actually focus upon the desktop user instead of the back room. And, that requires that it is easier than Microsoft. Focusing upon servers is not going to do it.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
While I realize that this forum is a great place to spout rhetoric on whether or not the ideology behind Lindows is true in spirit to the Linux community, it does not offer any real insight into the usability of the product.
Many users such as myself would be interested in using this product if people could tell me that Lindows ran my software. If I were to ask my friends who installed Windows XP on their machines if I should upgrade from Win 2k, I don't expect them to tell me "Don't, because Microsoft doesn't contribute to other closed source projects." I expect to hear whether or not it runs the apps and whether or not it runs quickly.
So please, can anybody tell us whether or not Lindows achieves its intended purpose of an alternative operating system that allows you to run Windows and Linux apps? I'll decide the politics of my operating system for myself.
Lindows started off by making claims of compatability with windows that they wound up retracting. I imagine an attorney somewhere telling them that they were asking for trouble. But it doesn't matter now, because the rank-n-file sales staff at Wal-Mart have already been programmed to say Lindows is Windows compatable. Which it's not.
In the long run I fear that consummer rage at being mislead by the hype of Lindows will only underscore the myth that Linux is arcane and difficult to use.
I've been waiting for a "final" version of Lindows. It's not a priority at the moment, so I haven't seen if they've reached that stage yet. When I finally get my own computer, I'd like it to be a Linux system, but something that A) doesn't require me to learn a new GUI, and B) allows me to run all the programs I've got and can read all the files I have. So something like Lindows would be an ideal solution. Otherwise, I'd likely go in for a Linux/Windows dual boot, but with my familiarity with Windows and all the stuff I have for it already, I don't see me using the Linux side of things all that often. I imagine in the average-user demograph (meaning relatively mid-level, not lowest-common-demominator average), there are a lot of others like me, who want to get away from Windows, but still want all the Windows-type functionality they're used to.
Soylens viridis homines es
Now, that is a bunch of stuff I would like done, but realistically if they got 1 and 2 done, they would be WELL ahead in the game.
... enough to reply to this story in any meaningful way.
Some time ago I tried out the Corel Linux distro, and although some of the design choices really didn't work for me (IIRC, it automatically boots into X and provides no easy way to switch out/change this behaviour)what it DID do pretty well was a Control Panel with options to switch Resolution and Color Depth. I haven't used any recent versions of KDE so for all I know they've implemented this too, but at the time (about a year ago?) it was the nicest X configuration utility I'd seen, and I think something like this is pretty important for new users who would be a little thrown off by XF86Config.
The idea behind the whole GNU project was to make a completely free operating system. Free as in speech. What they've done is taken (well, tried to take) Linux/GNU and made it into something it shouldn't be: a Windows clone. We have all seen the bugs Windows and it's programs have, why would we want those on an otherwise secure system. I don't think it's a bad idea to be able to emulate windows programs, but we shouldn't make a distribution of linux with the sole purpose of doing it... do ya see what I mean?
I agree that the idea behind the GNU project was not to produce a free (as in beer) clone of a crappy OS like Windows.
> I don't think it's a bad idea to be able to emulate windows programs, but we shouldn't make a distribution of linux with the sole purpose of doing it... do ya see what I mean?
Couldn't agree more. We don't need a mutilated Linux that tries to be Windows. We need an application like Wine, packaged to provide access to Windows on top of Linux. Lindows users should feel like: hey, I'm running Linux, but I don't need to get rid of my Windows legacy all at once. They shouldn't feel: damn, I glad I bought a cheap computer but it runs my old apps crappy. Have Linux adjust to Windows and it will end up like OS/2.
And never underestimate the need for applications like Wine. The major part of the networked world is not Free (as in speech). Therefore, to communicate in a Free manner with the rest of the world we ("the Linux community") need to be able read their crappy propriatry formats. I'm sorry to say that: resistance is brave, but in the end futile. Open source conversion tools and cloned applications like StarOffice, AbiWord, Gnumeric and OpenOffice are one way to read eg. MS Word formatted email (who invented that) or Excel files. Another way is to simply emulate those evil binaries. The same goes for games. Sooner or later you will need to collaborate, face it.
Isn't Linux's main problem with desktops the lack of added value on top of it being free (beer/speech)? Where's the desktop killer app? Where's the apache for the end-user/consumer masses?
If you DO want to run that shit, there is a new distribution of a very popular operating system which has been winning more acclaim among diehard geeks: Windows XP.
Holy shit, I see the Stallmanist lynching party approaching me now. Hear me out.
I've been using linux for a pretty long time now, since slackware 2, kernel 1.1.47. I installed it from a few floppies, on a 386DX25 with 8mb of ram (DIP DRAM on the MB... very odd) and a 120mb maxtor ide disk. I had a 1mb trident vga card, too. I ran X, netscape... you get the idea. BTW, fvwm rocks your socks. My computing experience goes back farther than that; for a long time my primary machine was a IBM PC-1 with 448kb ram and the updated roms to support hard disks. You get the idea. I'm pretty 'core about this shit.
Now get ready for the pain; I run windows XP now. This is mostly because I'm a gamer and gamers must run windows. But when Win2k came out I was sold on this whole NT thing. I still use Unix in various forms (right now I'm hyped on gentoo linux) for servers and such; I don't trust NT to be up as long, remote administration requires too much machine... I think they have a way to go before they reach the same level as Unix in serverland. But the XP user experience is unparalleled. You can quote me on that, fanboy.
No, XP is not the perfect OS. But it is an order of magnitude better even than 2k (Growing pains, you know... 2k might be this good now, but it's old) and of course it makes Win9x look like a whore. Did I mention that compatibility mode is really quite good now? Anyway, I can't stand the agony of KDE or Gnome, or more to the point, the combination of X and Qt or GTK. It's slow as fuck.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I hate Microsoft just as much as anyone else but you really can't recommend OOo to anyone on the Linux platform until there is a reliable quickstarter for it in the common DEs. There's one for GNOME but it hasn't worked for a while and the KDE one is still buggy.
Of course, you wouldn't need this if the OOo guys would componetize the apps like everyone wants them to. Making a big fat executable is fine for stripped-down apps like MS Works or GobeProductive, AppleWorks, etc. but for a program which bills itself (and actually is) a full-fledged suite, this is an unacceptable approach.
Let's keep focussed on desktop usage - all programmers with descent education know that Linux beats Windows.
> the "killer app" for me was "all of the above" windows gives me the buckwheats
To a desktop user, the killer app is probably wordprocessing, multimedia and games. Though these are all available on Linux, the do not have an added value (in terms of "ease of use", hardware support or "coolness"), but merely emulate what's available in Windows. And since - as you've mentioned - Apple has a pricetag, 90% of the users will stick with M$.
> With linux, I have a fleet of machines that cost me high end 125$ down to low end of 10$ that all run FAST, and I can multi task with them.
Let's suppose your figures are realistic. Isn't the problem that people expect to spend the same amount of money on a computer as they would on a TV set of videorecorder if they intend to use it as frequently. $500-$1000 is a "reasonable price" to many users; the problem is that at least $200 bucks thereof are MS's pure profit while the rest - the hardware - has a very slim margin.
> As to "lindows", I think it's silly.
So do I. But wine - or more generally - Windows interaction isn't silly.
I've had potential employers insist on "worddoc". for resume, I told them to GET STUFFED, I refuse, they get ascii.
Maybe that stuborn attitude works for you. Personally, I've never sent a Word formatted resume either and I used to rant about M$ product all the time. Still, I have never been able to convince my employers to stop developing software in Visual Studio - probably due to their "screw you, we insist on being stupid" mindset. But it's a fact that my ranting is futile, and I wish you luck in doing a better job at that.
Since Windows is a de facto standard and Linuxes - on the desktop - are outnumbered by far, doesn't it sound dubious to claim that "everybody is crazy and we're not"? Let's just assume modestly that there must be some advantages in MS's software that we - clueless - haven't jet discovered. And while waiting for that discovery, we should continue to extend Linux with features that give access to the real world where the big bucks are made.
Worst that can come of that is 1) geeks won't use these access features and others will stick with Windows 2) the Lindows beast will replace the Windows monster 3) Windows and Linux will coexist but won't be completely separated 4) the access features will ease the transition from Windows to Linux, not Lindows.
Flashback 5 years: I'm in a new job, absolutely thrilled with the $50,000 SGI Crimson Jurassic Classic monster I've just been assigned to. Said monster running IRIX 5.2 and whose 21' screen is in front of me. I'm as happy as a clam, getting paid good money for playing with this ultimate toy! I can almost feel my hair being pasted back with the speed of the thing... Suddenly a totally unwelcome rubbernecker invades my idyll. Without so much as a "May I?" pulls up a chair, plonks self next to me, leans forward into screen and gushes: "Oh, Windows! Cool!" AAAARGH!!! Strangle? Kick? Fold, spindle, mutilate? Or somehow change the perception that anything that has windows and menus and a mouse cursor is not necessarily "Windows" and that there are alternatives out there, some that were there even before Windows and some that are even BETTER than Windows! Or just plain DIFFERENT! To my mind, anything that even attempts to chip away even a few surface molecules of such monumental stupidity is a good thing and should be endorsed by this community. Just a thought...
A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist...
Lindows may not be the answer we all want but guess what... There are other distros for us!
Walmart now sells machins with Lindows on them! Wholy cow, LINUX IS NOW MAIN STREAM! GREAT!
Does Lindows need OUR support? Heck no, they are not targeting US they are targeting WINDOWS users, not Windows Power users, not Linux hackers not Mac users. They are going after Jow/Jane windows user.
Security issue, sure, but so what.. 9x has been just as bad. It may not be the whole answer but it is one thing if nothing more...
A Choice for the average user!
If you want to getmax config, go GenToo!
This is the first distribution to ever enter the desktop market. RedHat, Mandrake, etc. could not get anyone to pre-install their OS on a machine for sale. Now LindowsOS has gotten Walmart (the largest retailer in the world!) to put it on their systems. Do you seriously believe that a company worth $254 billion would put any old distro in their store? I think not, this has been in the works for at least a year and the execs of Walmart have reviewed all distros and only lindowsOS met their requirements. It is not for the Linux user, it is for the windows user that wants to get away from the strangle hold of windows. I see that most of the posts are positive and supportive of lindows. Just as I figured they would be.
Another thing to note is that win95/98 all run as root as you can do anything you want to the system simply by logging in or you can set it to not have a password as most users do according to microsoft. What is the difference in running windows as root or LindowsOS as root? Not a thing.