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Proposed Law To Open Code ... In Cars
SEWilco writes: "A Minneapolis Star Tribune story points out that small repair shops say they lose money because they don't have access to car computer codes. These 'codes' are the diagnostic messages used by onboard computers to report problems and perform tests. Older designs only required a jumper wire to make a test light flash code patterns, certain dashboard actions to display codes, or a cheap display terminal from a parts store. Now the interfaces and code meanings are more complex and undocumented, so only auto dealer repair shops can easily find causes of some problems. U.S. Senate S.2617 and House H. R. 2735
would force auto manufacturers to share the codes. Sen. Wellstone says that manufacturers are acting like a cartel, blocking independent shops and car owners. But GM is being helpful."
Yes, another case of intellectual property rights being used to extort money or exercise a monopoly.
How long before the world (particularly the USA) wakes up to the fact that the changing face of communications and information sharing means that this old model of IP protection needs to be reviewed.
I guess anyone who reverse-engineered these components would automaticaly be in breach of the DMCA and anyone who passed on the information would be stung for copyright infringement.
As a result -- we all pay far too much for products and services while the few who were smart enough to corner the IP involved do very nicely.
But hey -- that's what capitalism is all about so I guess we can't complain. But then again -- how capitalist are we when we use taxation as a method of redistributing wealth?
Someone ought to make up their mind on this one.
It has alot of tweakable settings, none of which I can preform myself but if I give the kid who works for the big bad car dealer $10 he'll do whatever I want.
Next car I buy, I will demand open specifications for, I'm getting tired of paying the kid to do what should have come with the car that I own.
I'm sure as fuck not signing a EULA when I buy my car not to violate its software.
It would make car repairs so much easier... Which is exactly WHY the dealerships and manufacturers don't want any part of it. When your car starts breaking down a lot you either bring it to the dealership who has the only tool out to read the diagnostic info (dealership wins), or you buy a new car (SOME manufacturer wins).
I mean, if the manufacturers wanted to, it would be easy enough to put a text readout in the dashboard that would say "engine airflow sensor failure" or something similar. Even an error code that you could look up in the manual would be decent.
When I buy a new car, part of my shopping checklist will be to see if I can get a (most likely) 3rd party diagnostic plugin tool.
If more buyers demand onboard diagnostics to be usable by owners without expensive dealership computers, it might start forcing manufacturers to make the information easily accessible.
Reminds me of Harry Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy (part 2). Give the buyers of the vehicles (in that case, steam wagons), the bare minimum of information to make servicing/repairing them impossible. At least the manufacturers aren't sealing the hoods and putting mustard gas inside to prevent repairs (yet).
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
Back when I worked for Sun Electric (before they got bought by Snap-On Tools), one of the hardest parts of making diagnostic disks for the newer cars was getting access to the codes. Information about what the codes mean, and how to get them, are "trade secrets" jealously guarded by the big automotive manufacturers, so they can provide *their* repair facilities with the stuff they need to do the work, thus effectively gauranteeing them a captive market.
... while these "confidential" documents were copied. We ran a few years behind - not that it mattered much to Sun, because nobody takes a new, still-under-warranty car to Joe's Auto Repair & Bait Shop. Our customers got the cars after they went out of warranty, and by then we always had the codes, and hardware to allow them to be read.
We'd eventually get copies of the specs, by having some employee schmooze the people at the auto makers, and they'd conveniently leave the codes on their desks, and step out for a loooooong lunch
It'd be a whole lot less sleazy, though, if the car makers had to release the codes, and how to get them. I do see, however, that this could cause problems, as many of the datastreams are bi-directional, allowing you to change things while the engine is running, potentially causing a malfunction. I wonder if the lawmakers have considered that?
Lemon curry?
I bet that part costs $10 to manufacture.
Actually, it probably only cost $5.00 max - the MAP sensor tends to be one of the most complicated sensors in a vehicle today, but even so it is typically only a stress gauge mounted in a custom body that is part of the air intake so that as air passes by, it exerts a force - typically a custom chip inside interprets this force and relays it back to the computer (in some manner).
But back to your assertion - my brother-in-law's truck was having problems, and one of the codes in the ODB-I system said that he needed a new throttle position sensor - we found it was a dealer part - the dealer wanted $50.00! Since he needed it, he bought it. But guess what this "sensor" was...
Yup, a 100K potentiometer with spring return to zero, in a custom molded body.
F'in car manufacturers...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
This is interesting. As a co-owner of a small independant garage that primarily works on GM, Ford, and Chrysler, I never had difficuly in obtaining error codes and how to pull them. Not only do the manufacturers provided manuals, but so do the aftermarket companies. Even getting a quicky codelist from the dealerships have never been difficult.
Now in the beginning of ECM's, all the sensors had different names, but the SAE has been working hard at even removing these obstacles. Also the auto industry is naturally working at producing standard error codes. Todays mechanics owe no loyatly to a dealership or brand (not a bad thing) Its much easier and cheaper if when another dealership or garage picks up a skilled mechanic they don't need to retrain them on that brands codes.
The automotive manufacturers know this and are migrating to common codes on their own. No need for the government to come in and add an additional expense to a process that is already happening.
What is happening is the liability of working on a car is becoming too expensive for small independant garages. This will be the death of mom and pop shops before nonstandard ecm codes are.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
...I had a brake problem for years, every couple of days to weeks, the computer would bitch about something wrong with the brakes (brake warning light). All the places I took the truck to basically kept saying, "We can't do anything because we can't read the computer codes." So, I kept having to take the truck to the GM dealer and pay their premium prices to "fix" the truck.
1 set of pads and disks replaced and cleaned, 2 master cylinders, a brake computer, and a dump valve later, after bitching relentlessly with the dealer about the problem, the light stopped coming on, yet the problems with the brakes continued. The truck liked to drift to the left or right when braking, sometimes hard. I suspected they cut the line to the warning light somewhere.
After taking the truck in for inspection at another place that is reputed as trustworthy, they replaced my brake lines (the only thing the dealer hadn't) saying that they where old and that the drifting was a sure sign they where wearing out. Problem fixed. Over a thousand dollers to fix a $50 problem thanks to GM.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
I work as a mechanic full time right now... and I worked as a technician for the past 4 years while I went to school (CS major working as a mechanic, go figure). Anyway, I've never had a problem with this mysterious hidden code problem. It's pretty simple, I use a handheld diagnostic scanner (Genisys scanner, it runs a Lynx realtime linux, has usb ports, pcmcia ports, ethernet, large color screen, pretty sweet)
it plugs into ALL cars made after 1996 (when the standard for OBDII came out) and most domestic cars with computers made before then. It tells me what code (or codes) have been set, and the data from the time it was set (RPM , engine temp, TPC value etc).
I then take the code, and usually it will say something along the lines of "PO0047 OXY Sensor Bank 2" (I made that code up, but it is very close to something which would actually occur)
Now, that tells me its an oxygen sensor in bank 2, no problem.
It seems to me all these "independent shops" just dont have the proper equipment(sidenote: I work at an independent shop). I have NEVER had a car give me a code that was "secret" and that I didnt have access to. Ofcourse, We have the proper equipment (the scanner was $6,000) and we also have several DVDS which , for each code in the computer give you a flow chart of what to check that could set that code.
It seems that the backwoods shops that people go to because they are cheap, dont have that equipment. Which is why noone understands that when we scan your computer for codes, we charge $55 just to check what the codes are for, not even to fix them.
So remember, when you get your car fixed and it costs a lot for something you think must be simple, remember that the mechanic is probably still paying for thousands of dollars in tools he needs for his job.
That was a long rant,but some of it was ontopic I guess.
Fud #1:
"From a business standpoint, it's diluting our franchise" to make the codes public, he said. "A franchise becomes meaningless."
I'm not even sure what that means, but it sounds scary. We can't have meaningless franchises! The whole system will break down, and then who'll fix your car, huh?
Fud #2:
William Abraham, executive vice president of the Greater Metropolitan Automobile Dealers Association of Minnesota, said that manufacturers "want it to be repaired right the first time. . . . All things being equal, they'd rather have you repair them at a dealership because they know they can get the job done right."
Translation: independent mechanics are scam artists who will leave your car in worse shape than they found it. We can't have them using our codes, that would be like endorsing them to ruin your car and rip you off. And you don't want that, do you? Never mind, of course, that dealer mechanics work on a pay system where the less time they spend fixing your car, the more money they make, and the least profitable jobs go to the worst mechanics. Now that's a system you can endorse!
Fud #3:
Lambert, of the car dealers association, said there is no evidence that independent repair shops are being driven out of business, and he said that consumers enjoy "a wealth of options." He said that no products are more regulated than automobiles, adding that manufacturers must be concerned with safety equipment, recalls and warranties.
There's two in here. 1) These codes are hurting independents? Prove it! Sure pal, right after I prove global warming when Antartica becomes a beach resort. Stall long enough, and there won't be any independent mechanics around to raise a fuss. 2) We're regulated, so you can be sure the government is making sure the system is fair. Oh, please. See US vs. Microsoft.
Fud #3:
They have a right, I think, to restrict who has access to all of that technology," he said. "Otherwise, they're left with people they don't have any relationship with working on vehicles that they're still responsible for."
Of course the manufacturers don't have a relationship with the independent mechanics -- the manufacturers deliberately refused to establish one to keep you away from them! If they started sharing the codes, then they would have a relationship, now wouldn't they? And you know what? I have a better relationship with my mechanic than with the dealer! But apparently that relationship isn't important (or maybe it is, that's why the dealers are trying to break it).
Fud #3:
"The old garage mechanic is gone," he said. "In fact, the term 'mechanic' is gone. They're called technicians now. These people have to be very intelligent people. They're working on computers, and it's a high-tech industry.
Of course, the guy from the dealer association said that customers have lots of "options", and that there's no evidence the mechanics are in trouble. Now, having assuaged our concern for the little guy, this other dude says that they don't even exist anymore anyhow. Pay no attention to that shop that says "Main St. Auto Repair" down the block. He's just a gorilla in overalls that couldn't possibly understand how to read a number from a screen, and look it up in a book that says, "water pump is failing." That's way too sophistamacated for a dumb schmoe like that. Forget that he has twenty years of experience and the dealer guy is some kid fresh out of a technical school (see Unix admins vs. MSCEs).
How many times have you heard someone ask, "when your Linux server breaks, who are you gonna call?"
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Have you ever heard of SAE? All this is allready published and easy of access to anyone who is willing to pay for the documentation.
We have all those FMI code which are not hidden to anyone, they are all well described. Buy yourself the latest SAE books and build a small board with a can controller that supports J1939, J1850 or whatever other can protocol you wish to snoope at.
Automakers make money by keeping this stuff secret. Why?
Dealerships do two types of repairs:
Customer Pay, and Warranty pay. As a way to protect consumers from questionable hourly billing, shops use a refrence book that tells them about how many hours a job will take. This book is how your estimate is determined (plus or minus whatever the service writer thinks they can get out of you)
What you're not told is that customer pay jobs
are often quoted TWICE the time alocated for warranty jobs. Very few mechanics like warranty jobs unless it's something that they have a really good shortcut around (i.e. A faster way to replace an engine than the shop manual shows)
Since automakers tell the dealerships how much they will pay for warranty jobs, Dealerships tend to make up for it by overcharging for customer pay jobs (via padding the quoted labor times)
So who gets screwed?
Not the automakers...
They sell more replacement parts when they can eliminate independant shops and
aftermarket parts. Independant shops tend to buy more aftermarket parts than OEM parts.
Not the Dealerships...
The dealership mechanics don't like to give up their "gravy" jobs like brakes & transmission services to Independant shops because those gravy jobs are what help them compensate for warranty work. Dearership owners feel the same way. For a given week, if mechanic 1 can replace 10 customer pay transmissions, and mechanic 2 can replace the same number of warranty transmissions, Mechanic 1 just earned the dealership twice as much and without all the BS warranty paperwork.
Independant shops get screwed.
Common sense. They can't compete because automakers are trying everything they can to get customers to come to them for all their needs. Independant shops must then rely on oil changes & mufflers to make their money, and there's too much competition there because it doesn't involve as much training. There isn't nearly as much money to be made changing oil as there can be for drivability & electrical stuff. The little shops must do a lot more little tests that the Non-OBD2 codes provide. How can a little shop compete?
Customers get screwed.
Mainly because competition is eliminated.
Don't expect to see any improvement either.
CNN headline news has been reporting that there will be a shortage of about 200,000 mechanics by the year 2010. Expect to see dealerships take advantage of that and watch labor rates and times skyrocket.
There is a Federal debt, about 4 trillion dollars worth. Most of it was run up during the Eighties when major tax cuts were instituted. And the Fed engine is once again running in the red due to the new tax cuts, especially the ones phasing in over the next eight years. It's going to be huge, the debt.
Now here's the income redistribution part. 17% or so of every tax dollar taken in by the IRS is spent to pay the interest on those trillions of dollars of tax-cut spawned debt. Year after year since the middle '80's, 17 percent of our country's gross revenue is peeled off and sent to...
Bond holders. When the Guv, in our name, can't raise enough money to pay for bread and tanks and roads, it has to borrowed. Usually this is done through bonds, paper bought by investors, both in the U.S. and abroad, which will earn interest year by year.
We pipe tens of billions of dollars of our income every year to very wealthy individuals and institutions. A great deal of the wealth in this nation is generated by that distribution. It's better than a gold mine, better than real estate.
Multiply this yearly welfare payment by about 21 years. We have, in the name of tax cuts, pumped hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars into the pockets of people who could afford to buy all those bonds and float all those loans. A goodly number of them are offshore... just about anyone can buy our money-making debt. To be really awestruck, adjust those dollars for inflation and recalculate what wealth we have transferred for a few bucks off our taxes.
Is it no wonder that wealthy people love tax breaks and don't mind a massive debt? Hell, I knew of an economics professor who straight-out declared that reducing or eliminating the national debt would spread destabilization around the world -- and he was right. Investors around the world love the money pump! It's like a rain of gold that will never end.
Now, for an exercise, compare the amount spent on debt service, which goes to wealthy/well off debt owners, to the amounts spent on aid for dependent children or Head Start. It's pitiful. The spending on our debt to the enrichment of the very well to do dwarfs anything we spend on the poor or schools.
The debt and deficit spending due to tax cuts are the biggest wealth redistribution scam in the history of mankind.
No one? In fact, there is huge interest in how the code works. A very large number of the aftermarket chips and often things like A/F ratio controllers are directly dependent on how this code works. As an example, I race Vipers, and it was very important to know exactly what both ECUs were up to for optimizing the fuel map (I say both because the Viper V10 is really a V6+V4, right down to having a pair of ECUs). Just watching how the cells change (even using a dealership's $3000 monitoring tool) won't help much unless you can see the code. It's like watching Windows Media Player GPF. You sort of know what it did, but you have no idea why...
Also, I've never saved the URLs but I've seen quite a few discussion forums on the 'net dedicated to reverse-engineering the code in stock engine computers. The discussions commonly include chunks of assembly code. They're very serious, and they're very interested in the code itself.
On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know.
Indeed... :P :)
Finally, this whole issue might be barking up the wrong tree. It may not even be the automobile manufacturers who keep this stuff "secret". I saw VW mentioned a bunch of times. A guy I know (who races Vipers) is an engineer who designs the chips for stock VW ECUs, and his company also writes the code -- and he doesn't work for VW. In other words, VW and other auto manufacturers do not necessarily own the code that runs their cars, it's often contracted out.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
I have three related stories about the absence of good diagnostic information, both showing WHY the auto manufacturers should open the protocols.
First story. I was on vacation at the Grand Canyon's South rim, and the plan was to head to the North Rim. While that is only a few miles as the neutrino flies, it's about 150 miles by road. Furthurmore, the South Rim is pretty damn far from anything else. So, I get into my car (a 1997 Grand Marquis that had just had its 100kMile service) and lo and behold, the "Overdrive OFF" indicator starts flashing - a fault has been detected in the automatic transmission. Between having the "Check Engine" light come on or this, I'll pick the "Check Engine" light any day - you can troubleshoot an engine in the field, and generally most engine failures are "limp home" failures. A tranny failure tends to be a "walk home" moment.
After poking, prodding, and checking, the light goes out. No explaination. So, we head off for the North Rim. 80 miles from anywhere the tranny goes "thump", the light flashes, and I curse. I managed to get to civilization, rent a UHaul truck and car trailer, and tow my car home. The dealership tells me the ATF had started to break down - they flushed it and changed the filter.
Now, BECAUSE the South Rim is so far from anywhere, and because so many vehicles go there, there is a service shop there. Had the car been able to tell me "Clutch #2 slippage detected - possible fluid breakdown" I could have gone to the shop at the South Rim, had the fluid changed, and gone on without having my plans screwed up. Instead, I paid US$900 to tow my car home, and US$200 for the service.
Second story: A couple of months later, I was going to work. I turned the key, and the "Check Engine" light stayed on. I checked the oil, listens for strange noises, and said "Emissions problem, not serious, call the dealer." Sure enough, the dealership read the codes, and said "Transient failure to pull a vacuum on the fuel tank vapor recovery - It's not showing now. Keep an eye on it. And damn guy, but according to this you've hit the rev limiter on this thing! How fast were you GOING?" Cost: $150. Had I been able to read the codes, I could have cleared it and kept an eye on it.
Third story: A few weeks later, I was heading home, pulled out from a stop, and the tranny said "bang" and the "Overdrive OFF" indicator began to blink. It turns out the fluid had gone bad BECAUSE the #2 clutch had failed. US$1300 later, I have a rebuild in place. I took the car to a tranny shop nearby, rather than the dealership. As I was demonstrating the failure to the mechanic (at that point, it was still intermittant) I commented "Yeah, I know how hard it is to troubleshoot intermittant failures - I am a software engineer". His immediate response: "Maybe you could write some software for us that would work on all of these cars!"
Conclusion: There is a clear harm to the consumer by the practices of the auto manufacturers, who together are acting in an anti-competitive and monopolistic fashion. I hope we CAN make them play nice (imagine a nice GTK front-end for diagnostics....)
www.eFax.com are spammers
Screw the codes! What I want is an led readout with a descriptive message that *I* can read.
I want to be able to call my mechanic and tell him that my car says my left front brake pad is bad. This way, I don't have to wonder if my car needs service, and if it's gonna be expensive.
Stupid engine lights. Stupid car mfr's. They don't *want* customers to know what's wrong because it *might* lose repair business. They miss the true point that customers would be happier with dealers and repair shops if they didn't have to take their word for what is damaged.
It would also be good for everyone, dealers, repair shops, and customers, if customers knew what the problems were as soon as they developed. As it is, the mechanic might be able to tell from the codes reported, but the customer doesn't know until he/she hears a weird noise or the car just won't go.
That said, if you want full information about your car, buy your car from a manufacturer who will give it to you (or your mechanic at least). There is no reason for government laws to mandate the release of this information into the public domain. If you really care about it, vote with your pocketbook. Most Americans don't seem to think like this though. Oddly, a sense of personal responsibility is usually only applied to others in American discourse. Whenever someone asks us what we're doing, we spout nonsense like "I shouldn't have to ... it should already be like that .... why should I clean up someone else's mess ... blah blah blah".
To recap: this is a campaign stunt. Consumers hold the power here, but they have to take some responsibility for how they use it (personally, I'd wish they'd not buy cars at all and take the bus or bike). There is no legitimate reason for government to make a law forcing this information into the public domain. You don't have a right to a car, nor to information about cars. If you don't like it, shop somewhere else... or don't shop at all.
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