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Proposed Law To Open Code ... In Cars
SEWilco writes: "A Minneapolis Star Tribune story points out that small repair shops say they lose money because they don't have access to car computer codes. These 'codes' are the diagnostic messages used by onboard computers to report problems and perform tests. Older designs only required a jumper wire to make a test light flash code patterns, certain dashboard actions to display codes, or a cheap display terminal from a parts store. Now the interfaces and code meanings are more complex and undocumented, so only auto dealer repair shops can easily find causes of some problems. U.S. Senate S.2617 and House H. R. 2735
would force auto manufacturers to share the codes. Sen. Wellstone says that manufacturers are acting like a cartel, blocking independent shops and car owners. But GM is being helpful."
Basically, they're leveraging their IP. I say good for them, but most people here will probably want to skewer them.
People rarely think about this kind of thing before purchasing a car. Maybe they should.
This article here, even though it seems to be written for the person wanting to do their own maintenance, seems like it would have some handy information for small repair shops, as well.
It basically points out a few new programs and an physical interface that is designed for use with a laptop that can interpret many diagnostic codes. Just install the software, plug in your car and off you go.
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
Everyone saying this is some sort of victory for Open Source is an illiterate moron, or didn't read the article.
Most manufacturers (well, certainly most japanese ones, and I'm 99% certain all US..) have used ODB-II from 1996 onwards to allow a standardised interface to their diagnostic (and often tuning..) information. This is a standardised interface, and does exactly what is being requested here.
You can buy standard ODB-II scanners, or PC interface boards. You can read and write data values in real time, it is a great system.
Of course, it is only manditory in some US locations, and manufacturers are free to make non-ODB models for other markets. More pressure for them to all support this would be a good thing.
The biggest problem is that 90+% of 'normal' mechanics out there seem incapable of interpreting the complexities of modern fuel injection systems (I've helped design some, and even I find them hard to understand at times), more information does not always fix that problem! The number of times 'they' (your normal mechanic) fall back to a mode of just replacing bits at random to 'fix' a problem is high.
I recently ran into something somewhat similar. I have an older Acura Legend that has had a couple of nagging problems I've been trying to track down. First is a ticking sound from somewhere within the mass of emissions-control components. The other was an occasional failure of the air conditioning to cool.
Anyway, I was doing some searching on Google and Google Groups, trying to see if someone had been down either of these paths before. I ended up, through an Acura enthusiasts site, at Alldata, a mechanics' and do-it-yourself'ers online technical reference subscription site.
Alldata had a list of Technical Service Belletins (TSBs) for my car -- these are notices sent from the manufacturer to dealers notifying them of, let's say "anomalies", in their product to be aware of. Sure enough, one was titled "BUZZING FROM EMISSIONS CONTROL BOX" and another was titled "A/C INTERMITTENTLY BLOWS WARM AIR". Jackpot!
All I had to do now was subscribe to Alldata for a (relatively) measly $25 a year to read the full text of the TSB. But wait! It turns out that of the world's car companies, Honda (who makes Acuras) and BMW (you know what they make) do not allow their TSBs to be distributed to the owners of their products.
I called Acura's toll-free number and complained, and sure enough, they said they only provide and authorize distribution of TSBs to dealers. Seems Honda likes to keep secret what they know is wrong with their cars, giving their dealers an advantage and making owners and independent mechanics suffer along rediscovering what's wrong with Honda's shoddy products.
Anyway, fortunately, I discovered an excellent service, Taylor Automotive Tech-Line which is a kind of a pay-per-incident tech support for mechanics and others. A simple web form and $20 later, and they emailed me TIFFs of the "secret" TSBs. Both of which were exactly what was wrong with my car!
Turns out the air conditioning problem was caused by a circuit board chock full of cold solder joints that had cracked. Ten minutes with a soldering iron and fresh solder corrected that manufacturing defect. The clicking sound was diagnosed in less than five minutes with the help of the TSB and fixed by replacing a $59 chunk of plastic (a "Constant Vacuum Control Valve").
Taylor Auto Tech's motto, by the way, is "We Fill In The Cracks On The Information Highway". Thankfully, someone is.
Here is an article about it.
And you think it is bad now...
I have very little doubt that as the technology matures, they will be able to build a car that ONLY runs on "dealer gas", which has certain molecular marker "tags" in the gasoline to identify it, custom sensors (similar to that used for DNA analysis, only MUCH faster) in the fuel lines, etc hooked up to the computer. When I mean "dealer gas", though, it will probably be a "cooperative" agreement between a gas company and the manufacturer - or maybe it will be something where all gas will work, but a "certain" gas will work "best" - literally.
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Every time I plugged in my 96 Audi A4 Quattro, three or four undocumented codes would come up. One of these was due to a co-worker starting the car while it was in gear ( I was in the back seat, completely intoxicated after a lunchtime margarita fest.) I was lucky enough to know a mechanic who had _some_ of these codes in a database on a nice diagnostic computer. However, many codes were not listed at all, mostly non-critical or not a real error condition, and would not show up again when cleared. (these are the mystery codes) When I was a mechanic a few years ago working on Navistar Diesel truck engines controlled by the MC68HC11 microcontrollers (motorolla 68ks) all codes were documented and the engines could perform real-time checks of all the electronics. The ECU had to be plugged into a hand-held computer that would display all the engine's feedback in realtime on a 5X5 screen. I want one in my car, but that looks like its a few years down the road.
1) Most manufacturers in fact do NOT provide any information about their ECM codings or diagnostic trouble codes. The ONLY published codes are typically the OBD codes, which everyone knows anyway. While we're all proud of you for having three systems to do that at home, clearly you've never used them for actually diagnosing real non-emissions related problems with your car, or you own an older-model (early OBD2) American car.
2) Also blatently incorrect. Companies absolutely hold this information close. In the example I used, Audi's tech manuals cost well over an order of magnitude more than the "consumer" level manuals cost. They are virtually impossible to purchase, anyway, if you're not certified by them. Not coincidentally, virtually all certified mechanics work for dealerships. The manuals that we end users have access to have the very bare minimum of information to perform very basic maintennance on the car. For example, say I want to flush my brake fluid. The procedure that the consumer manuals lists is very different from what the tech manuals list -- they don't even mention that you need to cycle the ABS controller using a VAG tool.
a) Yeah, thats a pretty common excuse stated by people who want to spout off and make people think they know what they're talking about
b) In most cases, this is also blatently wrong. The basic principles of how cars work have not changed much. No one needs to know how the internal code that runs the engine works, but knowing what all the errors it can tell you mean is pretty damn important. Knowing that changing your brake fluid the "old" way isn't doing the job completely is important to know too. This isn't stuff that "backyard" mechanics don't understand, this is stuff they are being deliberately not told. There's a big difference.
You know, you're right, there's a big problem with people who believe what they read. On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know. Not that I'm pointing any fingers directly at you.
a little sniffing around yields this ODBScan Protocol Interface
They also sell the interface hardware and software for
There are also numerous places to download free OBD demos.
The problem here may not be just getting car manufacturers to divulge engine codes, but rather the maker of the ECU itself. For instance, Bosch produces ECUs or other engine components for virtually every car maker. Last year, Bosch had over $23x10^9 in sales in the automotive sector alone. Since nearly all European manufacturers rely on the Motronic ECU for higher-end engine applications, I'm sure that many Engine Control and Error Codes are similar amongst many different models and manufacturers.
I'm not entirely sure about whether or not the problem is the manufacturers' reluctance to supply codes. Perhaps they have a contract or something with the supplier of the ECUs to keep things hush-hush. Not only do the manufacturers make out by requiring service at their garage with their advanced tools, but the ECU supplier stays safe from the competition by not having all the details of their system easily divulged.
--- At my sig, unleash hell.
and I noticed a banner in the window that caught my eye.
This pretty much sums it all up. They offer FREE code retrieval.
Back when I had a Jeep Wrangler, I bought a Haynes service manual that showed me what its codes were. I could easily obtain the error messages through a morse-code system.
To see what the diagnostic computer felt was wrong, you turned the ignition key so that it went off/on/of/on/of/on. After the third and final "on," the check engine light would flash a certain number of times, which corresponded to a specific problem code.
flash - flash - flash
*pause*
flaah - flash - flash
... that would mean 33. 33 stood for Air Conditioning, IIRC. That code would always come back since my Jeep didn't have an A/C unit plugged into the diagnostic box.
Anyways... the Jeep was a '91. I miss it so much.
*tear*
After reading the many messages regarding this topic. Here is a breakdown of information. There are many trouble codes which can be transmitted by the ALDL unit. Also, which most people did not discuss here is the serial data. This data is streaming information which contains information on fuel mixture, speed, and A/C information. The serial data can be read from the ALDL to your computer. Please visit this site for a simple hardware interface and some information on ALDL timings. http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl8192/8192hw . tm
There is tons of software out there.
http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/ecu_software.htm
Here is the best site on the ALDL(ECM) protocol. Check this site out........
http://www.ws6transam.org/ALDL.html
I have a working interface board for my car computer. GPS, MP3, DVD and realtime (yeah right) automobile information from the ALDL unit.
Enjoy..!!!!!!!
As a datapoint I just replaced an oxygen sensor in a Jeep Grand Cherokee. The OEM part is $180. The aftermarket part is $60. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is the plastic interface plug on the end (the sensors are identical and are both manufactured by Bosch). $120 compensated me nicely for five minutes with a crimp kit.
Jeep is notorious for jacking up the price of old parts.