Slashdot Mirror
No Love From Microsoft For Xbox Modders
RandyOo writes: "Only 4 days after news of an XBox port of MAME was posted to Slashdot, Microsoft contacted the admin of mame.net and downloads have now been removed. Knew I should have downloaded it earlier this morning ... Thank goodness for P2P!" And scubacuda writes: "According to The Register, one group of Xbox hackers have decided to halt development on its Xbox mod chip. It will be interesting to see how other developers follow suit."
"No, Master!"
Microsoft can kick and whine and scream all they want to, but it's far, far too late. They knew that all the other consoles get chipped. They knew that their hardware was ripe for a Linux/Mame/Etc.. port. They knew that they were going to have to fight this, even if every other console maker has been doing it from the beginning of time.
Sorry, Bill. Take a good look at Sony, your main source of competition. What have they done? Released a Linux kit... and therefore eventual Mame compatibility.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
It sounds as if Microsoft is pissed because their SDK was used. I don't have an Xbox SDK, but I'd imagine that there is some pretty hefty licensing requirements that disallow posting any code built with it on the net.
Now, if someone manages to build Xbox binaries with other tools (gcc) and without the libraries and headers that come with Microsofts SDKs, I don't think Microsoft will be able to do anything about that.
Take a look at the GameBoy Advance scene -- there are at least two non-Nintendo compiler chains that you can use to build GBA binaries. Plenty of people have their own sets of header files available for use (I have a heavily modified set of my own). Nintendo realises that they can't stop them. But, if any of the offical GBA SDK shows up on the net, better believe it that Nintendo's lawyers are working to quickly get it offline.
So, this doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft's poor business model and everything to do with protecting their intellectual property.
dennis
So, once again, the home consumer is being punished for a company choosing a stupid business model... How long until this is written into law?
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Commencing flame.
No really, mod chips let me import games (which I purchase) from Japan. Pure and simple.
What the fuck is the point of globalization and "the international market" if they are selling neutered hardware that wont let you even USE the stuff you can now have access to in other markets?
It's a fucking joke. Anyone who supports increased global trade, but opposes mod-chips is a total hypocrite. We are not becoming a global community, but a two tiered society - powerful producers and powerless consumers.
Well, fuck that. Like the Boston Tea Party, sometimes you gotta break the rules when they've been sufficiently and effectively stacked up against you.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Almost (with you and I as the only exception, apparently) belive the quote with a straight face.
"Hey, MS shouldn't care, it isn't like we are stealing from them. We are just using their machine to play games we stole from other people. In doing so we are causing MS to loose money (on the hardware) and not buying the games they get the licensing fee from. This is totally ridiculous."
Come to think of it, if they allowed MAME, they might be susecptable to a DMCA lawsuit.
Very very few of the CE games were any good. Rogue Spear may have been the only one. So apparently the developers you get from having WINCE are not so hot. All the good ganes seemed to use the Sega OS. Not that it really matters unless Sega had to pay a lot for the CE licence. If they were smart though there is only a CE payment on the CE using games...of corse MS would want a payment per unit shipped, CE or not.
I think Sega killed their consoles more or less just because they couldn't design a PS2 level system with the moeny they had left, and in the time needed. I doubt they killed the DC because they were too costly, if so, why did they let the price drop to $100 or so? But, yeah, I don't see how MS had much influence on killing the DC.
I'm not entirely convinced Microsoft is doing this because they don't want users to run MAME or because they're worried that people will buy an Xbox, mod it, and just use it to run their own software without ever buying a single officially licensed Xbox game. Quite honestly, that seems like such a small drop in the financial bucket that I doubt Microsoft really cares that much.
I think Microsoft's main concern is that people will use modded Xboxes to screw with Microsoft's Xbox Live offering. You know, the one they're investing, like, 80 gazillion dollars into? I'm no security expert, and I have no idea what kind of "military grade" security Microsoft has implemented with their Xbox Live infrastructure, but based on this article on Wednesday, it does seem to rely heavily on the fact that they're using a closed, Microsoft-only system.
What does that mean? Again, I'm not really sure, but I'd wager good money it means the most likely way somebody could f*** up Xbox Live for users is by using compromised Xboxes. That's something Microsoft definitely doesn't want, and I'm guessing that's why they're showing no love for modders.
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"
I'm only replying because by some miraculous wonder, you did not get modded down.
There is absolutely no legal reason to own a modified console.
I'll repeat the obvious, Import games that are regionally encoded with no plans to ship to your region.
"Well, my modified Dreamcast lets me make my own games and play them!" No, it lets you play burned games that you download from the Internet.
There are people that do write their own DC games. Just because the majority of people use it to steal games that aren't being produced, or sold right now does not make everyone who modifies thier machine a pirate (and the people who do steal games are not right just because they aren't available anymore, either).
as soon as you put a burned game into that machine, you've committed a felony
This is not always true. You are allowed to make backup copies of software you legally own. I only bring copies of my music CD's to work, does that mean I'm a felon whenever I listen to "3 Doors Down"?
Why do you think Microsoft included an ethernet adapter? It's because when "Xbox Live" goes live, they can see your machine. They could see your saved games, they could see how often you play, and nobody would be the wiser. Why? Because the entire operating system is proprietary, and there's no way to disassemble it. You couldn't even install a piece of software on the Xbox to trap packets coming out of it, because it would have to be approved by Microsoft.
And you AREN'T bothered by them watching what you do on your home entertainment system? Remember that they are adding a PVR to this machine, they will watch that as well. (My only hope is that they use information about what people REALLY watch on TV to keep from cancelling the good shows. Of course, I know I'm going to be sadly disappointed by finding out what people really watch). What happens if someone watches an adult movie on their X-box one night when the kids aren't home, only to have "adult entertainment" ads invade their home for the next few weeks when the kids are home. This should bother everyone.
No legit user would ever want or need to open up their console to play games
I agree and disagree with this statement. This IS why people buy console machines. You have a black box, toss in a game, flip a switch, and you're playing. That's all it's supposed to be, no more, no less.
I disagree with it because many legit users open their machines for fun. Who didn't open up their nintendo or atari at some point (usually near the end of it's life) just to see what it was like on the inside? Saying no legit user should ever have to open it up for any reason is akin to saying no driver should ever look at their engine: They don't know what is happening, and could only either break it, or be doing it for an illegal purpose.
The amount of "good" games is controlled by the console manufacturers already. Sony releases fewer games in the U.S. as it does in Japan, Nintendo is not much better. I'm sure that Microsoft will do the opposite (release more games in America than Japan), at least I hope so. Modern games being copied hurt game developers severely. Older games aren't the same way. The people who put the blood and sweat to work on them usually aren't with the same company 15 years later. There are Three different games that are freeware for MAME even.
As for your last argument, THAT should have earned you flaimbait -1 right away.
Mod chips don't make felons - copied games make felons.
TDY
Sure, research from Enigmah-X, based in China, has been shut down, but we can purhcase these chips. I believe Liksang.com, located in Hong Kong, still sells these chips. If you ever make a trip to the Far East, be sure to check out China and Thailand. A popular Asian philosophy that implies that "knowledge is free" is a reason why local officials drag thier feet to shut down production operations or enforce intellectual property laws. Movies, software, video games, and a long list of other items are considered "knowledge" there, which explains the existence of their large "piracy" market. Mod chip development, which involves research and development, is also considered as something needed to attain what is considered "knowledge", for example video games. (However, China has begun a recent crackdown on software-related piracy in recent months, as it tries its hardest to enter the WTO).
In Thailand, you can obtain PS2 and Xbox games from 2.50-5 bucks a pop. Ps2 and Xbox mod chips in Hong Kong cost less than 110 of US currency in the local markets and stores, last time I checked. X-box Mod chip development will likely pop up in Asian countries, so be on the lookout if your interested in this subject.
The Asian mentality which states that "knowledge is free", which is Confucian in origin, is something a so-called "Westerner" may not understand, especially when that person lives in a country full of IP laws. This explains the seemingly endless battle of American companies, such as Microsoft, against the gargantuan "piracy" markets of Asia.
Also, this quote from a paper of a student of Rutgers University titled "Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China" describes the situtation of IPR (Intellectual Protperty Rights) in China:
"Confucius's concept of the transmission of culture and Marx's views on the social nature of language and invention arose from very different ideological foundations. Nonetheless, because each school of thought in its own way saw intellectual creation as fundamentally a product of the larger society from which it emerged, neither elaborated a strong rationale for treating it as establishing private ownership interests.[15] Deeply influenced by these two ideologies, China falls behind all developed countries and many developing countries in the field of intellectual property protection. It is also not difficult to understand why most of Chinese did not know what were IPRs in 1980s."
As one can see, the IP battle between West and East began with ideas created in the West and East. Microsoft's successful attempt to shut down R&D on the Enigmah-X is part of it.
As one famous Chinese scholar once wrote:
"To steal a book is elegance."
More information on the reasons behind the East-West IP battle can be found in here:
"Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China", an essay written by Sheng Ding
"To Steal A Book is an Elegant Offense: Intellectual Property Law in Chinese Civilization" by William P. Alford
So, even if MS manages to kill of all of the mod. chip makers, you can still do a homebrew mod by flashing a flashrom on your computer mobo with the hacked bios and wiring it up. This puts the power to mod. you XBox in your hands, but unfortunately it looks as if MS is targeting people illegally using their XDK. What we need is an open sdk for the XBox and/or to wait a bit longer for XBox Linux. Anyway, I'm glad I grabbed MAMEX already.
'He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.' - Douglas Adams
This is a joke! The hardware does not belong to Microsoft. When you buy the hardware you should be able to do what you want with it. You are not bootlegging software, you are opening the box so that you can run open source code. there is no
way Microsoft should be able to stop users from doing what they want with the hardware.
So.. why not boycott the piece of junk and build a
true opensource product?
Microsoft making a big song and dance about this will surely result in more publicity for MAME. Wonder how long it'll be until there's a MAME that'll work on X-BOX without needing a mod-chip? That'll really hurt MS as lots of people get lots of great games, and MS don't make a dime out of it - heck, they actually lose money because the console itself is a loss-leader (even if they are using slave labor over in China now to make 'em)
It wasn'y clear from any of those links on what gounds microsoft objected. It wasn't a port of one of their games, was it, but rather to their platform?
How is this different from apple throwing a hissy fit because I've ported galeon to run native on carbon (which I haven't, but for sake of argument)?
I truly am confused, not just shocked, shocked. Not askign you to justify M$ reasoning, just explain it.
MS have never said Xbox would be "integrable" with "other stuff". They never pushed the fact that it was based on standard PC parts. They always pushed it as a killer game console, nothing else.
There will never be a "commercial OS" to run on the Xbox, if MS have anything to do with it. Repeat after me: It's a game console, not a PC.
The online service has not been opened yet, but even so you can still play half a dozen games, including Halo, Tony Hawk (2X & 3) and Nascar Heat, over the net. Not quite "no inter-web games available", whatever that means. When Xbox Live opens in a few weeks, there will be dozens of net-based games, as promised.
And clearly you haven't looked at what uses the hard drive HAS been getting. First off, virtually infinite save games. Second, rip your music & play it from there without the CD, or play it instead of a game's supplied soundtrack (this is really nice). Third, caching game data really does speed up game load times, especially during the game itself. Fourth, it allows you to add content to a game, as DOA3 did with their recent bonus add-on disc.
Fifth, and most important, games are starting to use the hard disk for LARGE amounts of persistent data. Morrowind is a current example of a huge, really detailed world that is simply not possible without the HD. Project Ego is an even more ambitious RPG that preserves & evolves every last detail of the world - forget doing that on a memory save card!
And of course they're pissed off at modders. They will oppose anything that gives people a reason to buy the Xbox (which they take a loss on) and not buy games from it, at least until they can break even on the sale of the box. They will (of course) also oppose anything that might promote or allow piracy of games, to protect their publisher partners.
They haven't "given us a bunch of resources", they're selling a game console, just like Sony et al. And just as with the other consoles, people are seeing the Xbox as a challenge - one with more promise than PS2, DC etc, since it has a built-in HD & ethernet, a faster CPU, more RAM, better gfx & sound and it's a largely familiar architecture.
You're complaining that the Xbox is "useless" because of its lack of non-gaming support, yet you claim MS doesn't belong in the gaming industry? Make up your mind.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Use the SDK to build gcc.
In practice, a cross-compiling port of the GNU Compiler Collection also requires a port of GNU Binutils, which is strictly not part of the GCC project, but is almost always distributed alongside GCC. Binutils contains the assembler and the linker. The Xbox SDK's linker signs the code with Microsoft's private key, and parties to whom the Xbox SDK is disclosed are contractually restricted from disclosing Microsoft's private key. The unmodded Xbox will not run unsigned software. Therefore, how will you make a linker whose output the Xbox will accept?
Will I retire or break 10K?