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The Empire Strikes Back - in China

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the oh-no-agreements-at-all dept.

jaymzter writes: "Reuters is reporting that Microsoft is dumping $750 million into China over the next three years. According to MS CEO Steve Ballmer, "What's good for the local industry in every country is good for Microsoft", especially when that other country is actually promoting and developing home grown Linux. From the article it looks like MS is willing to overlook China's legendary software 'sharing' as long as the government stays tight with Windows."

27 of 308 comments (clear)

  1. Birds of a feather by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Some would say considering China's human rights record.... that M$ and China would make a good team.

  2. Microsofts point of view... by Rasta+Prefect · · Score: 5, Interesting


    With active promotion of Linux in China, Microsoft has to be realizing that it's better to let rampant piracy of their products continue and make some profit from those who do buy than to allow the creating of a large incubator for Linux - something that could potentially threaten their market share in countries with more enforced IP laws.

    --
    Why?
    1. Re:Microsofts point of view... by dubiousmike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Having worked for a few commercial software companies, one being a music software company that was one of the more pirated at the time, I found that the company's standpoint on piracy was that it was not all that bad, in most cases.

      Those who will use your software in a professional capacity will usually pay for it.

      Those who will not use it in a professional capacity, will learn it and possible work for an employer who either already owns it or will likely buy it for said "now former non-professional" to use it.

      At the end of the day, you have an increased user base. Revenue doesn't really change as the non-professionals wouldn't have paid for it anyway.

      Of course, I didn't work for Microsoft or a similar company who's products are meant for absolutely everyone (in their book) and thus every pirated copy really is considered lost revenue.

    2. Re:Microsofts point of view... by _Upsilon_ · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Those who will use your software in a professional capacity will usually pay for it. Those who will not use it in a professional capacity, will learn it and possible work for an employer who either already owns it or will likely buy it for said "now former non-professional" to use it. At the end of the day, you have an increased user base. Revenue doesn't really change as the non-professionals wouldn't have paid for it anyway.
      This is essentially the point of view which I've looked upon all this for years.

      I believe that there should be a 'personal use' license for most of the big software packages out there. They could make it downloadable (even if it did require registartion) or put it in the stores without hard-copy manuals, or a box. Sell them in a shrinkwrapped jewel case and price it like an audio CD.

      The pros would still pay for it, and it would do wonders for increasing the user base.

      I believe, IMHO, that people would be more than willing to pay for good software if the prices were not as absurd as they are now (for big packages anyways, think MS Office, or Adobe PhotoShop)

      Geoff Holden

    3. Re:Microsofts point of view... by jaoswald · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think Microsoft's view is probably more forward-looking than this.

      I suspect that MS believes that by investing in China, they can build up China's domestic software industry. That domestic industry will find that their business will be much more profitable if their intellectual property rights could be protected.

      Western companies complaining about piracy probably doesn't mean squat to the Chinese government. They figure that piracy of western software helps keep China's foreign reserves higher, while still allowing the domestic economy to benefit from the software. When Chinese software starts getting pirated, the Chinese businessmen are going to start working their connections to get the government to crack down. Plus, the pirate shops will start getting legitimate contracts to produce domestic software.

      I'll bet that the Chinese government will sit up and take notice when it's not just foreigners asking for copyright enforcement. And that, eventually, will redound to Microsoft's benefit.

      Or, maybe Bill Gates figures he's got 40 billion dollars to piss away just because he feels like it. NOT.

  3. hey Ballmer by Patrick13 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hey Steve-O--

    my friends and I pirate MS software too, give us $750,000,000 too. What's good for us is good for the net economy...

    --
    ::.. check out some Cell Phone Reviews
  4. Good news/bad news by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Good News:

    China gets an even bigger IT infrastructure.

    The Bad News:

    They spend most of it on hardware upgrades. Forever.

    The Good News:

    More technical knowledge of computers in the country.

    The Bad News:

    It's all directed at creating anti-Pallendrome mod chips.

    The Good News:

    More people in China get onto the Internet!

    The Bad News:

    All they can get is MSN, and only if they use Internet Explorer.

    The Good News:

    China gets to upgrade their military computers.

    The Bad News:

    The first BSOD launches WWIII.

    --
    52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
    1. Re:Good news/bad news by cruelworld · · Score: 3, Funny

      I used to believe that Windows 2000 was stable.

      If I'm logged in as Administrator and using Internet Explorer, it will eventually hang my machine.

      This also happens to at least two other people that I know.

    2. Re:Good news/bad news by Archie+Steel · · Score: 3, Informative

      If I played Half-Life and paused twice in a row it did a reboot (Windows 2000). I've heard of quite a few WinXP crashes as well. Don't confuse "crashes less than Windows 98" with "never crashes". Oh, and regarding "current" Microsoft operating system: according to my weblogs, as many people still use Win98 and WinMe as Win2k and WinXP...

      All in all, Windows is still less stable than a well-configured Linux system (with a non-experimental kernel), IMO.

      --

      Reminder: find a new sig
    3. Re:Good news/bad news by Archie+Steel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      IIRC correctly, you did not propose a theory, but rather made an arbitrary assertion, something along the lines "Current Microsoft OSes don't crash." Not "rarely crash" or "crash less often than they used to" or even "crash less than other OSes". Now, to give examples that current Microsoft OSes (by that I assume you mean Win2k and WinXP) can crash, as some of us have done, is indeed proof that your assertion is in itself not true (i.e. they do crash, regardless of actual frequency of occurence). Now, if you have an actual theory to formulate, we can have an intelligent conversation. Otherwise you'll just end up offering opinion as fact, as you did in your original post.

      --

      Reminder: find a new sig
  5. They will strike 'piracy' later.. by aralin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Seems that Microsoft finally noticed that not everybody is equal and although Europe and US are already hooked on their drugs, China is still not and so they just need to back up a little, distribute for free a little while longer, before they will collect. And China is a potential market of the size of Europe and US together. So be sure they will collect eventually.

    --
    If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    1. Re:They will strike 'piracy' later.. by kcbrown · · Score: 3, Insightful
      What I have to wonder is whether or not people in the U.S. and in Europe notice that they're getting significantly worse treatment than China from Microsoft and decide to do something about it.

      Of course, probably nothing would come from that anyway, what with "intellectual property" being so screwed up in the west ("What's ours is ours, and what's yours is ours. Now bend over!", say the corporations, with the court system seemingly going along with this).

      --
      Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
  6. How long can they keep it up? by sterno · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft has huge reserves, don't get me wrong, but it seems like, more and more, they are having to spend a lot of money to fend off their competition. 750 million is only a drop in the bucket, but it does add up eventually.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
    1. Re:How long can they keep it up? by Sabalon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Depends on how they are "spending" it. Are they giving away licenses to Windows? If so, what is the cost to them - $0.

      Lets see them really donate $750mil by going to CompuUSA or something, buying $750mil copies of WinXP and shipping it over there.

      Hell...I can give you $4BILLION worth of RedHat...buy one cd for $69 amount and print up a certificate saying you can copy/install it 5.7million times.

      It's like the case a bit ago where they were gonna help everyone out by giving them their software which'll cost them minimal cd costs.

    2. Re:How long can they keep it up? by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 4, Funny

      good point. I wonder if that means that they get to write off 750mil...

      Kramer: Jerry, just write it off.

      Jerry: what? what do you mean write it off?

      Kramer: big companies do it all the time.

      Jerry: you dont even know what a write is, do you?

      Kramer: ....

  7. dosent matter by Ksop · · Score: 3, Funny

    linux open relay
    or
    windows open relay

    were all still going to get spam from china

    1. Re:dosent matter by Lao-Tzu · · Score: 5, Funny

      It does so matter.

      A windows open relay will have more downtime. Yippee!

  8. Very likely by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Agreed with your points, but there are a few more things to consider:

    Microsoft really is lagging in the Chinese market (200:1 copies of licensed Linux to Windows according to some estimates). This is because the only competition to pirated Windows at the moment comes from Linux.

    Also, Gates at one point make a comment to Money magiazine (in 1998) where he stated that they need to get the Chinese addicted to software, so they will start paying for it. This has seriously hurt Microsoft's image in China (can you say Opium War?)

    Finally, the major anti-piracy cases Microsoft has tried to bring in China have been ill-timed and seriously backfired.

    So Microsoft is coming in from behind in the fight against Linux in China, and it is trying to make up for past blunders...

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  9. Re:Had VA thought of this... by JCCyC · · Score: 4, Funny

    I get the queasies when I see any Western companies kissing the Chinese govt's butt, be them Open Source or anything else. But M$ is special:

    Chinese PM: Linux secure, Windows dangelous. Fuck off.
    Ballmer: But Mr. Chairman, Linux promotes freedom, while we promote tyranny! It's us who are you natural allies!!!
    Chinese PM: Zounds, you're light! Let's make a deal.

  10. $750 Million? Depends how you count... by WEFUNK · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft makes an annoucement that they're "investing" $750 Million somewhere, but what does that really mean?

    I mean, where does that figure actually come from? I imagine it's the total retail price of products they're going to give away. Or it could be the total "discount" they're prepared to give off stand alone or bundled packages (50% off each product X expected volumes). With .NET is this just giving away the razor while charging for the blades (something they want to do anyway and are possibly just piloting in China)? Does the number also include promotion and advertising budgets (beyond any give-aways)? And how much is for "real" apps vs. silly "$700 of free Microsoft Software" packages with programs like Free-Cell having MSRP's of $25 or more?

    The bottom line is, this is a pretty silly press release/story. They can pretty well choose an arbitarily high number if they base it on the suggested retail value of product, when in actual fact, their actual net investment (variable costs) might be next to nothing. They're not even giving up opportunity costs if they're just competing against pirated copies.

    Linux distros should do the same thing by assigning an arbitrary retail value to every freely distributed copy and calling that the open source "investment" in each implementation/industry/country.

    --
    My next sig will be ready soon, but friends can beat the rush!
  11. Neat... by Danse · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now I see that I have been right all along!! I'm not really pirating MS software, I'm helping MS to maintain their dominant user-base! What's good for me is good for Microsoft!!



    --
    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    1. Re:Neat... by ignavus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now I see that I have been right all along!! I'm not really pirating MS software, I'm helping MS to maintain their dominant user-base!

      Yes, you are. You are an accomplice to a corporation with the morals of a drug pusher.

      Get legal. Use open source.

      MS: Free, as in "the first one is on me"

      MS: Unfree, as in "We'll charge you when you're hooked"

      Only suckers play MS's game. If you are already dependent, *plan* to get off their software. For all new projects, use open source equivalents. For old projects, gradually port them to the open source equivalents. You *can* do something about it. Start now.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
  12. China trusts Microsoft? by weave · · Score: 3, Funny
    Imagine the good that ole Bill could do. Plant a trojan in every copy, set to go off years from now. When the magic date hits, start sending state secrets to U.S. on one hand, while opening up a tunnel around their firewall blocks and blast every normal computer user in the country with a real look at the outside world of news, events -- and boobies!

    He could trigger a revolution! :-)

  13. Pretty much what they did in Mexico too by Locutus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is what they did as a test run in Mexico. They know these countries are poor and by throwing a few million bills at them, they sucker them into the Microsoft Windows upgrade cycle. Linux can only offer reliable, secure, and inexpensive software while Microsoft just plain pays them to use Windows.

    Wasn't it Microsoft who paid $5billion for AT&T to used MS-WinCE on a few hundred thousand set-top boxes? And then they couldn't provide the backend software to run it so AT&T walked away with $5billion.

    When you have $40+billion in monopoly money and billions still streaming in, you can start paying people to use your product when you know they will not be able to move off it in the future.

    Ask any drug dealer how this works......They'll tell you it a sure thing.

    I hope China asked for cash too. ;)

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  14. How China Linux Works - why microsoft will fail by akbkhome · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is very funny for anybody who knows how the linux china market works.

    Before you start, you have to understand that there are a number of Linux Distribution companies in China, most of the started small and rode the tech bubble there, raising capital on the hope of following companies like Redhat etc.

    The difference in china is that prior to getting listed, they had to be 'blessed' by the powers that be - The communist goverment. - due to rampant quasi corruption, this usually means that if the cardres that added their blessing usualy buy in personally - and stay in (due to the chinese habit of sticking with the family).

    What this means is that all the major Linux companies have very prominant central party members on their board. - imagine George Bush's son on the board of Redhat. - with no accountability stuff..

    Basically the top guys are so tightly into the idea they can make money from their connections using linux, that microsoft is fighting a battle that it lost a few years ago...

    --
    Taking PHP to the next level: phpmole, php codedoc, php-gtk pear installer, DataObjects for php, ldap schema viewer and
  15. Re:microsoft is against chinas ideals by liverdonor · · Score: 4, Interesting
    This is just the sort of generalization that has caused problems for humans for many 10^3's of years.

    Please try and understand. China isn't a communist country. China is a country full of people who are possibly even more capitalistic than we are here in the good ole' US of A - but they just happen to have a corrupt oligarchy of a government whose only goal appears to be staying in power, and are unfortunately not blessed with a strong constitution and separation of powers that we (and other parliamentary democracies) have.

    Remember, there's no history of democracy in China. Ever. Most Chinese people I've met would like to have it, but many are skeptical that it would work.

    This atmosphere helps nourish Linux and the Open Source movement in China - there are large numbers of talented and engaged software engineers, many of whom have little or no money to spend on expensive (and mostly bullsh*t) software licences and hardware. Open Source fosters innovation, and it's better than piracy because no one can prosecute you for pursuing it, and you get the source, whereas pirated commercial software is rather opaque in that regard.

    Personally, having worked at MS in my past, I would hope that China can grow their own OS's. I hope that MS fails there - it would be a huge help to the Open Source cause if they fail.

    --
    ... can we have your liver, then?
  16. Bill Gates starts World War III? by dcavanaugh · · Score: 4, Funny

    I used to think that World War III would start in the Middle East, but now I know better. The Chinese will think all the Microsoft bugs and security loopholes are a cyber-attack from the United States, when it's really just the products behaving as designed.