Marcelo Tosatti on UnitedLinux (And More)

PDAJames writes "There's a new interview with Marcelo Tosatti online. He talks about what it's like to be kernel maintainer after nine months on the job and identifies the biggest problems with the kernel now. He also defends UnitedLinux against Mandrake's criticism. He would, since he works for Conectiva..."

Comments

What a twisted pervert!

[buzzbomb]

It's not like working on 2.5 (the development kernel).
Yeah, that kind of thing is really sexy.

Marcelo is a kernelophile! He should be locked up for having feelings like towards kernels! ;)

Re:What a twisted pervert!

[jcoy42]

Marcelo is a kernelophile!

Look
here and read about Linus' thoughts about how Tux should look (this is from the early days before Linux had a logo).

After you've read the whole article, it should be quite obvious that Linus has a "thing" for penquins. If you've read up on Linus at all you would know that it probably borders on a fetish.

Now re-read that last paragraph and ask yourself- what exactly was Linus doing that had him being chased by a speeding penguin..

I think the marrage was just a publicity stunt, much like when Troy McLore married Thelma ..

Unfounded criticism

[RocketJeff]

"He also defends UnitedLinux against Mandrake's criticism. He would, since he works for Conectiva..."

Yes, I know it from the submitter (not an editor), but it's still a dumb comment.

Just because you're an employee doesn't mean that you can't have opinions and express them. If anything, I'd think an employee of a company dealing with Open Source software would be more likely to express dissatisfaction when warranted. I suppose PDAJames (the submitter) only says nice things about the company he works for?

Re:Unfounded criticism

[famazza]

Now a days Tossati is so influent not only in Brazil, but also worldwidely, that he doesn't need to agree with Conectiva. He agrees only if he wants to.

Today Tossati can open his own linux company and be his own boss for the rest of his life. If he's saying that UnitedLinux is cool then it is cool for him (for him).

Besides this, what the heck! As stated by GigsVT here Tossati develops the kernel, not applications, nor distros.

Heh

[GigsVT]

There are some simple problems that non-technical users might have with Linux, such as installing new software, or finding certain files that they need in the system. What's the solution to that?

Why do people keep insisting on asking kernel maintainers questions that only related to user level apps? What's the point? That's like asking the Gaim team about the newest block device code.

Re:Heh

[freuddot]

Why do people keep insisting on asking kernel maintainers questions that only related to user level apps?

If you accept these two facts (er. assumptions):

a) The kernel is not the UI and as nothing to do with usability
b) The main thing keeping Linux out of the desktop market is that Joe Public is unable to USE it.

Then, you must accept that the main reason why Linux doesn't work on the desktop market has nothing to do with Linux itself, but rather is an usability problem.

If you don't accept that, then you must assume that kernel maintainers have something to do with Linux success, and by extension with the UI / UserLand.

To answer your question, how about people on /. are not ready to accept this ?

Re:Heh

[kigrwik]

> a) The kernel is not the UI and as nothing to do
> with usability

You're mostly right, however there are some overlapping areas.

For example (cheap shot, I know :) take CD burners.

Why the fsck should I need scsi-ide emulation to have my 100% IDE burner act as if it were an SCSI one ??? (and hang the SCSI stuff once every now and then, btw)

Answer: (as far as I understand it, IANAKH)
because at the time it was easier to "route" the IDE
burners through the SCSI API instead of moving the common code to the upper level.

But try to explain to Joe User why he should
add hdc=ide-scsi to his lilo.conf ! He'll find that dumb, and I can't blame him.

That's just an example, but it *does* mean that kernel and "user experience"(tm) are not separate things.

Re:Heh

[reaper20]

*sigh*, once again ... we have people living in the past.

Grab a modern linux distro, install ... wow, look, burner recognized, icon on desktop ... Click, burn.

User doesn't know/care about any of what you just mentioned.

Re:Heh

[CarrionBird]

How about hardware drivers?

For example: To a convert who's used to one WDM driver working (to a degree) for 98, me, 2k, xp, WhatEver, It doesn't make much sense that his video driver must be recomplied for every version of every distro. Methinks people from the MacOs side would think the same thing.

It may not be a big deal for a developer type person, but someone who's just want's to try Linux out & isn't a programmer will have a hard time getting his 3d card going. So, a lot of guys walk away thinkng "Well Linux can only do 3d if you have X card with Y distro and stand on one foot, so I'll just stick with Lameos 99 which at least will support XYZ card.".

Even if you don't care about the unwashed masses, we're all affected by the lack of vendor support that results.

Re:Heh

[mark_lybarger]

guess what... windows cd-burning software also uses scsi emulation. that's what the atapi is all about on those cd-rom drives. it give software developers a common interface to program to.

which "upper level" are you referring to? to my understanding the (scsi) emulation layer is an upper level. this makes all the code common. as others have mentioned, most big distros will recognize your cdrw and load the scsi modules on boot. launch xcdroast and your in business.

Re:Heh

[kigrwik]

> which "upper level" are you referring to?

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that there were plans to move some of the SCSI code (incl. that which is used by ide-scsi) that doesn't specifically belong to SCSI to a higher, more abstract level. This way, devices that need SCSI-*like* functionality don't feel the drag of the whole SCSI interface.

But I'm not a specialist, so check google for that. (I just did, but I've got waaaay too many results :)

Re:Heh

[kigrwik]

heh, lol :)

It's true I haven't tried consumer-level distros in a while. That's good if they get that one right.

However, kindly allow me to modify my point in:

When the sh*t hits the fan and Joe User tries to understand why his drive won't respond, won't he feel weird getting those SCSI errors ?

(Besides, think of the poor Mandrake/Suse/RHAT dudes that do the behind-the-scenes configuration stuff ! I think they'd like a more consistent behavior from the kernel :)

Re:Heh

[GoRK]

Well you are wrong about one thing: "100% IDE"

Burners are ATAPI devices - Calling them "IDE" is sort of like saying "Ethernet" when you mean "http" or something else like that. ATAPI was invented to bring SCSI devices into the consumer market with minimum cost to hardware manufacturers (ie no change of command api's in the devices firmware). As far as the command set goes, they are actually almost 100% SCSI. Ditto with ATAPI zip drives and tape drives. Heck, even the parallel port zip drives are SCSI (with a built in ppa SCSI controller). USB mass storage uses the SCSI command set also -- and I think Firewire does too (I may be wrong about firewire). ide-scsi is *not* a SCSI emulator. It is a transport, the same as the USB mass storage transport.

IMO, the mistake was to write a seperate driver for ATAPI in the beginning that did NOT tie to the SCSI system - we might have a mature ATAPI/SCSI interface by now that did not have the problems that we see today.

And why do you mention only CD burners? I use ide-scsi for regular CDROMS, zip drives, and tape drives. The application support is much better (ie i can do cd to cd copies, use all backup software, etc)

~GoRK

Re:Heh

[mark_lybarger]

i guess i'm too lazy to search google for "remove code scsi higher level". ok. ok. ok.

the original post was regarding the complexity of using linux scsi drivers to access ATAPI CDROM drives, specifically CDRW drives. i don't see the relavence of moving any code, or the "drag of the whole SCSI interface".

at any rate, you seem to be suggesting an ide-super-duper-scsi interface. how would using this interface make setting up the device for the user any easier? they're still not using an IDE device, and the applications are all written to take advantage of the SCSI interface. maybe if the ide-super-duper-scsi interface would talk to both ide and scsi devices, and applications would use the new interface, we'd be all set.

Linux Magazine interview

[larry bagina]

devloperWorks has this interview with Marcello from March. Ignore the Java exceptions :)

Can't we all just get along

[ShwAsasin]

Although I am Mandrake/SuSe/RedHat user, I still find each distro great in their own individual way. I think United Linux offers an interesting solution to the bigwigs (Red Hat, and Mandrake on a lessser scale) but it will be tough for them especially when RH/Drake have both the server / desktop markets in their palms.

But we all know that things can change in a 90 degree turn on a day, i.e. Sega Saturn vs. PS, Genesis vs. SNES, OS9 vs. OSX, etc...

Only time will tell.

Re:Can't we all just get along

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Apple never personally called it OS9, = 7 it was System {5,6,7}, and with 8 and 9, they called in MacOS {8,9}, mostly to version the OS separate from the machines for sales to clone makers.

IBM created the PS/2, they added MicroChannel so they could have something proprietary, and charge for "added value" and not get their ass kicked by clones. Sucks when you're in a commodity market. Maybe that woulda flied in the early days, when IBM was pretty much the main guy, but you can't add it after the fact. People who knew about tech will avoided it because of lack of hardware and drivers. People who didn't avoided it bcause of price. The PS/2 thig is part of their letter/number naming conventions: OS/2, DB/2, OS/400, AS/400...

he makes some good points

[idfrsr]

I think that he has made some good points about the value of UnitedLinux. It's nice having all the choice when selecting your distro, but for software companies writing for linux systems has to make sure that they can run on all distros is certainly an expensive undertaking.

And I think that pushing embedded linux is also an excellent point. It is a marked that linux can take over (unlike the current desktop).

I was disapointed he didn't talk to much about linux on the desktop, and what his views are about where/how to proceed. Anyone know of other interviews of his where he mentioned them?

Wise words from a young man

[red_dragon]

This bit really stood up, IMO:

It's just technology, so why do these clashes come up, do you think?
Because people are there. Egos show up.

And it could not be explained any more simply than that.

Marcelo

[MrHat]

I just try to be as technical as possible. It is very important to me... People do not use the right words some of the time. Starting a fight is really easy. But instead of saying, for example, "You are full of shit," you can just say, "I don't think you are really right." You have to use the right words.

Slashdot could learn a lot from this guy.

Re:Marcelo

[Prior Restraint]

Slashdot could learn a lot from this guy.

No we can't, you dumbass! You're completely full of shit!

;-)

Can't go to the U.S.?

[Ami Ganguli]

He said he got turned back at the border once for having a B1 visa when he needed a B2, and now he can't go back. What's the deal here? Is he banned for life?

Re:Can't go to the U.S.?

[Anonymous Coward]

To be allowed to enter the US after being rejected on an incorrect visa, he needs to go through some long bureaucratic process which may or may not result in the ban being lifted. He probably figures that it isn't worth doing until he has a really good reason to go to the US.

Re:Can't go to the U.S.?

[4of12]

He said he got turned back at the border once for having a B1 visa when he needed a B2, and now he can't go back. What's the deal here?

Uhm, you haven't been following the earlier posts which clearly explained how Marcelo was much wiser for his years in terms of dealing with people and personalities as well as being a technically adept kernel hacker and having the ability to think about a huge number of diverse kernel patches being applied to a production system used by millions worldwide.

Shoot, if the United States were to start letting people like Marcelo into the country there's no telling what kind of mess we'd be in!

Now, if he were slyly willing to work off the books in a meat packing plant or a demolition site for forty dollars a day he might have a better chance...

Re:Can't go to the U.S.?

[SurfsUp]

To be allowed to enter the US after being rejected on an incorrect visa, he needs to go through some long bureaucratic process which may or may not result in the ban being lifted.

That's exactly true, starting with the fact that the u.s. immigration service won't even talk to anybody who'd not a u.s. citizen. You Americans have no idea what a bad impression your representatives are making at the border, if you did you'd demand changes.

Re:Warning I don't know what I am talking about

[jcoy42]

this is a pronoun. I think we need a noun to answer your question.

Re:Not allowed in the US?

[sofar]

Damn, I wish this would happen to Bill Gates, or maybe George Bush, or how about...

akpm

[neroz]

No offense to Marcelo, 2.4.18 was a great release.. but I honestly think Andrew Morton would have been a better choice for maintainer. The delay between 2.4.18 and 2.4.19 has been several months long - a few months is acceptable because of the IDE changes, but this is just a bit much. The time between pre-releases has been too long recently as well - the longer between each pre, the more changes that are made between them == less testing of the changes seperately.

(Yes, I know all the arguments about how it is a "stable" series and all - but some people want new features, and 2.5 is not an option, thanks to IDE being 0wned by Martin).

This is _NOT_ a troll.

Re:akpm

[famazza]

Just one question...

• Do you prefer to have a dead kernel release that always crashes your filesystem?

Re:akpm

[guybarr]

I know all the arguments about how it is a "stable" series and all
but you want to discard stability of a STABLE branch for features - not a great deal for users who wish to actually use the system.

- but some people want new features, and 2.5 is not an option, thanks to IDE being owned by Martin
have you considered that IDE instabilities are in 2.5 because this is where new features and engineering reforms should be done, regardless of who is the maintainer ?

my belief: there should be a split to 3 branches:
1) long-term dev-branch: this branch is where large-scale (>months) changes are made and tested.
2) medium and short-term dev-branch: this branch is what you're looking for, where features and fixes which take months or less are made and tested, really tested, not like the 2.4 VM fiascos, before becoming stable.
3) stable branch: this branch changes once a year or less, except for very minor bug/security fixes.

changes will NOT be imported directly from 1->3, only 1->2 , 2->1 and 2->3 .

this will give you both stability for those who need it, long-term dev and testing environemnt for the systemic reformers, and short-term devellopment for the medium- to small-scale changes.

and before anyone of you jumps and shouts "but this is exactly the debian model of stable, testing, unstable branches" I say that both branch 1 AND 2 are dev. AND testing branches, the criterion sugested is the changes scale, not the targeted audience (though ususally decisions may be similar between models).

Attitute Problem?

[blancolioni]

He also defends UnitedLinux against Mandrake's criticism. He would, since he works for Conectiva...

Marcelo was polite and reasonable throughout the interview, and gave clear reasons for his position. What's with the bitchy editorialising?

Re:Attitude Problem?

[blancolioni]

Hello, AC, you big wuss you,

It's perfectly valid to make the point that he has an interest in promoting United Linux, since he does work for Conectiva.

There are ways and ways, my son. "He would, since he works for Conectiva" suggests that Marcelo is incapable of making a technical case for UnitedLinux. This is far from the truth. By all means point out the connection, but lets not dismiss anybody's opinions merely on the basis of who their employer is.

Linus

[bgarcia]

But instead of saying, for example, "You are full of shit," you can just say, "I don't think you are really right." You have to use the right words.

Slashdot could learn a lot from this guy.

Hell, Linus Torvalds could learn a lot from this guy.

Re:Linus

[SurfsUp]

Hell, Linus Torvalds could learn a lot from this guy.

Heh, very true, especially as Linus was at least partly wrong in the first of those tirades: buffers couldn't handle buffers bigger than page size then, and still can't, even today.

The trouble is, the audience tends to love this mudslinging, and that just encourages the behaviour.

Re:Linus

[hazyshadeofwinter]

This guy could stand to learn something from... umm, himself. (C'mon, somebody had to post it!)

Re:Linus

[bgarcia]

Kernel developers aren't going to run back to Windows crying.

No, but it's still impolite to tell someone that they're "full of shit", especially when the *do* tend to know something about what they are working on.

Re:Linus

[bgarcia]

Great find!

Oh well. At least he said it to Linus, who should obviously be able to take it since he dishes it out so well. :^)

mod down

[Fourier]

"Informative" my ass. When was the last time ZDNet couldn't handle a little slashdotting? Quit stealing their ad revenue.

Being Normal?

[davidu]

There are a lot of potentially clashing personalities in the Linux world. How do you deal with them?
I just try to be as technical as possible. It is very important to me... People do not use the right words some of the time. Starting a fight is really easy. But instead of saying, for example, "You are full of shit," you can just say, "I don't think you are really right." You have to use the right words.

He forgot to mention however that this kind of atitude does not apply on the DJB lists.(qmail@, djbdns@, etc) hehe

-davidu