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Seeking Power Mac Recommendations?
Pauly asks: "I'm going to do something I've never done: I'm buying a Mac. I'm a long-time UNIX developer and user for whom the prospect of trading a noisy, heat-spewing workstation or two in favor of a civilized Mac is irresistible. I'm quite used to making x86/*NIX hardware decisions. However, I'm finding myself stumped as I look at the G4/OS X options."
"As attractive as the (i|e)Macs are, I'm pretty certain I'll be getting a G4 tower to re-use my subtantial dual-monitor investment. Specifically, for my needs as a developer and power-user, I wonder:
- Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
- Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
- Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
- What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
- Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
- Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"
I don't know answers to some of your questions, but here's been my Unix to Mac conversion experience:
Heat and Noise
Granted my old PC was a monster with all those fans, but I've been shocked by how quite the G4 I bought for my wife is. The amount of heat is about the same, but I've found the cases to transfer the heat better than some of the PC cases I've owned in the past.
SMP Support
My god, I couldn't believe how well OS X handles this. I often just open the CPU monitor to watch the near perfect load balancing. I had a 400 MHz dual G4. Under OS 9, there were only a handful of applications that could even use both processors. Now, OS X takes care of that detail and it's like an instant speed boost.
Memory vs MHz
Even when I purchased PCs, I always took memory as a more critical upgrade that the small MHz difference that I could find. To this day, I have maxed out all of my machines with memory, even if it means passing up the next processor line. Memory is cheaper and still makes a difference in how fast applications will respond.
Good luck with the Mac upgrade.
Most of my family are artists, so most of them use Apple computers. They're a lot quieter than any comparable machines I've seen. They aren't silent but compared to the boxes I'm using they seem like a whisper. If you feel the need to immediately spend extra money I'd recommend spending it on processor, there are no aftermarket options (that I know of) for replacing a processor on a current G4. Aftermarket RAM is available for substantially less than what apple charges. In addition their machines are amazingly easy to upgrade.
I'd recommending just getting the minimum configuration you can with the processor speed you want. You can purchase aftermarket hard drives, memory and other components later for substantially less.
For what one family member does with his G4 the SMP support is extremely helpful in terms of raw performance, but you've got to look at your applications and see if they exploit SMP. If you're writing your own code you can obviously make it support SMP, but you didn't really say what you were doing.
IDE on Apple's seem to work a lot better by default than IDE on PCs. I screw around with digital video, my sisters G4/733 captures via firewire without dropping a frame on the internal IDE drive. In order to duplicate this on my Windows 2000 box I had to install a second drive on a seperate bus from the system drive.
That didn't answer your question of course, but I just thought I'd point out that the comparision might not be so cut and dry.
I'd advice getting an aftermarket SCSI card and drive if you do decide to go that way however, you can save some money over Apple's prices.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
Glad to hear you're making the switch! I have zero regrets and my life has become much simpler without the constant worry about my hardware & unix config. Good luck!
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
1.) My 933Mhz G4 is a bit louder than a generic maytag-like pc, and seems to be on-par, if not a little cooler than the pc counterparts(YMMV).
:)
2.)Spend money on Megahertz, and go for a G4. Macs don't lend themselves to cpu upgrades *as much* as some intel cpu's, so go with a clockspped you'll be happy with. As for memory, see #3.
3.)Look for the CPU and CD/DVD drive when shopping for a desktop. IDE drives are a breeze to add on to a new G4 desktop after the fact, and Apple's memory isn't very competitively prices. (Crucial memory works well for me). Apple's super-mega-loaded machines are nice, but go for what you need. The superdrives are awesome.
4.)Go for the Titanium GeForce card, as it has a ADC *and* DVI connector for nice dual flatpanel support. If you're doing VGA monitors, think about the GeForce4MX that has an ADC and VGA. It depends on what you are going to be doing, as 2 displays do require more resources on your card to operate well. As for Jaguar, I dunno. For Quartz extreme, any GeForce for the mac should be fine.
5.)I hear good things about duals, but my single 933mhz works great for Photoshop & Final Cut Pro.
6.)Unless it's a server/multiuser machine, IDE is a better all-around solution for you. Firewire external drives work great in OSX, and IDE's a re cheap
**Disclaimer**
Your Mileage May Vary, but I hope this helps.
- Choose a style: tower, laptop, desktop (iMac)
- Choose a CPU speed: this is where cost can deviate the most
- Choose options: DVD recordable, type of display, etc.
I recommend generally not buying things like RAM directly from Apple, it's easy to add yourself. Mac OS X should have a minimum of 384MB of RAM, but hey it's cheap. I also would say save your money on SCSI. FireWire is the way to add external drives.Getting an SMP box is definately beneficial under Mac OS X, but a killer video card will buy you a lot more perceivable performance for everyday use. You probably should just plan on getting the video card directly from Apple with your machine.
All the other things like mice and stuff work so easily on Mac OS X. Anything USB or FireWire should most likely just work when you plug them in.
PowerMac towers tend to be quieter than x86 boxes. They also tend to be cooler. Design pays.
Memory trumps megahertz, in general, under MacOS X, especially with lots of GUI apps running.
I tend to buy from Apple, except for RAM, but upgrade later from third parties. Get the extended warranty; you probably won't need it but you'll be annoyed if you need it and don't have it.
I'm not really qualified to answer about the video cards, but I've got a couple of friends who have dual GeForce 4 cards and are happy with them.
The SMP support is fantastic!
Unless you are running a server, the SCSI drives are no longer a great deal better than IDE.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
I do believe so. I recall some seriously loud fans on my roommates computers, and my DP 800 isn't nearly that loud. But I haven't done a scientific comparison by any means.
Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
Depends on what you need it for. You will need at least 512 MB RAM. If you want super-fast processing, then spend the spare money on MHz, since it's tough to upgrade the macs for processor later. It's not so tricky with RAM.
Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
With RAM, not Apple for sure. Everything else in the computer itself, go with Apple. You can get plenty better prices with after-market RAM.
What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
I'll be getting the GeForce4 Ti with the new machines I'll be ordering. It has two monitor inputs, and will work with the Quartz Extreme acceleration.
Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
Depends on how much your time is worth. 2 1 GHz Processors will be slower than 1 2 GHz processor, but it's still plenty fast in OS X. If you want speed, get the Dual Processors. They are certainly nice.
Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?
If you're not running a server, and you're not some anti-IDE frea...I mean, pro-SCSI evangelist, then no, don't bother with SCSI. for day to day use, IDE is well worth the price. SCSI is more reliable, and it has advantages in being full-duplex apparently, but I haven't run into any bottlenecks using it for my needs, which is print publishing.
Hope this helps
=Brian
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, will not hate it.
I too, have just switched from the x86 world. I got my 800mhz g4 PowerMac in feburary, and have been soooo happy with it. I'm a developer that just couldnt' resist the UNIX with a nice gui and nice 3rd party support. Here are some answers to your questions:
1. They are MUCH cooler than x86. if you open up a g4 while its running, and touch the heatsink, its not a single bit warm.
2. memory is so cheap that you shouldn't worry about it. MHZ and Memory aren't really comparable in money terms for a Mac. There is too big of a gap. I would spend what you think you can on the MHZ, and try to save for at least a stick of 512 to drop in there.
3.I'd say shop around, that goes for anything you buy, there really isn't anything you get special from buying from apple. If you are gonna pay cash, maybe try ebay,there are some good deals to be found there.
4. if you buy one of the CURRENT quicksilvers, ie 800, 933, dual 1ghz. You can buy an adapter from www.drbott.com for $35 that will convert the ADC video port on the video card to vga. I have done this and am using dual monitors on my G4, and the best part is that BOTH monitors are accelerated under jaguar. If i had gotten an add on pci card, only my main monitor would have been accelerated.
5. Os X completely takes advantage of dual CPUS. Developers do not have to write their apps to take advantage of SMP systems, like windows does. Every app under Os X will feel the dual cpus, from aol instant messanger to Adobe Photoshop to Quake III.
Let me know if you have any other questions. you can email me here
Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
I have a G4/833 Tower, as well as a Pentium IV 1.7 Ghz. The 1.7 is in a steel ATX supertower with a processor fan, two 4" smart fans, and a fan on the video card. It's noisy.
The G4 has an excellent enclosure for heat dissipation, and uses a processor heatsink and one 3" case fan. It produces the same percieved noise levels as the whitenoise from my external computer speakers when I crank them all the way up.
Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
It really depends on your application. I develop on my Mac, and I do some Photoshop work, as well. Memory is definitely an issue for me, and I have 512MB of memory. I use PC-133 SDRAM, which is thankfully very inexpensive. You have four slots to work with, and I'd recommend configuring at least 384 MB of RAM for mid-user applications. If you want to be a power-user, get a half-gig or more. And buy all of the processor power that you can afford. You won't be sorry.
Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
I like using the Apple Store for the "build-to-order" config options, just because it's handy. For things like RAM, unless you're taking advantage of some sort of promotional deal, get the RAM from a third party. Almost all RAM is lifetime-guaranteed, anyway. I really like getting into the G4 case. You just pull the latch, open the hood, and look around.
What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
Jaguar's not out yet, but I don't think it's gonna cause me to change my config. I use the GeForce 4 card that came with it along with a Radeon 8500 for my dual-head setup. It's actually probably a little bit of overkill, but everything works great.
Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"
Not for my use, but a good friend of mine does a ton of video editing, and he swears by his SCSI-3 RAID. It's certainly noticeably faster, but it's also a lot of $$. I love the speed of my Mac, and I also like to avoid spending lots of $$ for frills. I'd say that if you're thinking of going SCSI-1, don't waste your time. Only SCSI-2 or -3 are going to make a noticeable difference over Ultra-ATA, IMHO.
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
I don't know what your workload is, I do a lot of Mathematica on a dual 1GHz PowerMac. On the positive side I never get noticeable lag in GUI operations or other activities while running a long calculation in the background, even when both columns on the CPU meter are totally green (usually for about a second or so). On the other hand, Mathematica itself is not SMP aware and when other system activity is low I still see the load switching between CPUs on the CPU meter. Benchmark tests confirm that my box is actually slower than a single processor due to overhead as processing switches between CPUs.
So, if you are not running SMP aware apps, but do regularly run processor intensive apps in the background then the dual processors are worth it if only because of lost productivity due to a nonresponsive GUI otherwise. On the other hand, if you only run processor intensive task while away from the machine then save yourself the money and wait (and pray) for a faster CPU.
Get your extra memory elsewhere. Apple charges a lot more for memory than 3rd party places.
To summarize, he would say:
That said, before you do anything, WAIT. Wait until after MacWorld next week and wait until Jaguar is announced (it is supposed to ship in August, so it will probably be announced at MacWorld). Jaguar, with QuartzExtreme, will probably have a big impact on the card you want for dual monitor support.
From my experience, build to order your G4. Get the minimum RAM (single stick; if you have to choose between a 128 stick and a 256 stick you might want to go with the 256), minimum hard drive (optional, Apple isn't horrible and since you have to have one you might want to get one you'll keep) and get rid of things you don't need ($29 modem). RAM you can from Crucial or PriceWatch. Hard drive from PriceWatch or somewhere else. SuperDrives are nice.
Get the best CPU you can (see BadAndy's advice above). You don't really upgrade your CPU, so this is critical.
Don't get it from Apple, but do get RAM. It makes the biggest difference in OS X responsiveness. RAM is cheap, and while I am fine with 160MB in my iBook most of the time, I notice a difference on my slower home machine with 384MB. OS X's window server can basically use as much as you give it.
Hope that helps,
Nathan (n8_f@maccom)
The maintenance tasks occur daily, weekly and monthly.
/etc/crontab. Do 'man 5 crontab' to learn more about it. Restart after you've edited the files - sorry I don't know a better way to restart the cron daemon, perhaps someone can tell us.
h ill/macjanito r.html
You can change the times that the scripts are run - just edit
Alternatively, go to http://www.nonamescriptware.com and get Cronathon which will do the job whenever you like. They have some other nice stuff there too.
Another app that you can use is MacJanitor:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~brian_
chang
To explain my motives, I'm tired of incessantly admining/configuring/fighting the system at home. I have the money to pay Apple to do that for me now. I still advocate Linux on the desktop at work, but I don't get paid to tinker at home.
Actually, between the girl and I, we'll be doing all sorts of development (one of us always seems to be working from home). She'll be spanking the memory writing Java Swing code in JBuilder, and I'll be spanking the CPU's with computationally intense C++ financial modelling algorithms. I also plan on picking up Objective C along with making some GUI toys for XML authoring I've been tinkering with on Linux using QT.
Especially for her, screen real-estate is tantamount in importance (our current workstation uses dual 19" monitors). Therefore, I think I'll have to stick to a tower to power our current screen real-estate (and eventually a Studio Display) even though I would MUCH rather have the iMac -- I'm a staunch minimalist at heart.
That may be true, but I'm not necessarily good at one of them. Ok, either of them....
Shop around before you buy. With Apples current attitude toward industry standard parts, you can, generally, use all sorts of commodity, over-the-counter parts that are labled for PCs (NOTE: video cards don't follow this rule. Niether do modems. For most other types of cards you can either find Mac drivers online, or you can download programs from the manuacturers to flash that card's ROM for Mac use. It is best to do some research before you buy)
Best by what measure? The ATI 7500 is a nice enough card (I use a RADEON 7000 PCI at home in B&W G3) but I'd prefer an 8500. It's a shame that Apple doesn't offer it. OTOH, the NVidia card does sound very nice. I don't know, what are you planning to use the machine for? Most applications, IMO, don't benefit too much from SMP, and the premium kills and 'sweet spot' opportunity. Still, it depends on your application. On a server, sure, but not for most desktop applications. Besides, you can always add a third-party SCSI card at a later date.Overall, my advice is to buy a middle of the line machine, skimp on memory directly from Apple (upgrade though a third party), possibly skimp on the hard drive as well (upgrade through a third party), get the best optical drive and video card Apple offers (software support is vital for both, so get them from Apple), and everything else is a toss-up. Buying middle of the line saves you some money, which is good since this is your first Mac: if you discover you don't like Apple products (not that I think that's likely to happen) you won't feel so bad about the money you spent. Once you are comfortable with Apple hardware, you can decide home much (or little) you want to spend on your next machine.
In general, unless there are compelling reasons to go for the top of the line, buying middle of the line is a good policy. When your machine is, inevitably, made obsolete, you won't feel so bad, since you weren't cutting edge to begin with. With Macs, you have the added advantage of, generally, being able to upgrade the system (new CPU, memory, disks, etc.) without needing an entirely new motherboard, so the middle of the line system will last longer than similar systems on the PC side.
After 15 years or so of PC dedication, I just got myself a PowerMac. I've never been happier. As for your questions:
Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
My new machine is far quieter than my old machine, but far from silent. With the clocks going up on the G4, and the near-excessive nVidia offerings, cooling is becoming much more important. But, it has fewer fans than my old PC, and they're put in places where they actually do things.
Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
Both. You can always get more memory later, and it will be worth it. MacOS X will eat your memory as fast as you can feed it, especially if you're doing anything video-related.
Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
Mine came with the academic discount, so it would have been more expensive to get individual components. I'd say finding your own hard disks would be cheaper, and same with ram.
What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
GeForce4 Ti 4600. Ouch. I've never been motion sick from a 3d shooter until Apple mailed me that hog.
Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
I think so. It's nice to be encoding a 10-gig MPEG4 and have no noticable slowdown in my other applications. Again, I think it depends on what you want to use the machine for.
Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"
I don't have SCSI, but the IDE drives have been just fine. Although I haven't looked into it myself, setting up a RAID with IDE drives is probably trivial, which could give a good performance boost on your disks.
My PowerMac is the most expensive machine I've ever burned my bank account on, but as I've had trouble-free operation and excessive performance, it's worth it. That whole BSD-ness behind the Apple makes my heart melt.
-agent oranje.
Most of this was written to help a friend out, I've updated it to reflect the situation you've discribed. I've included a couple of URL's below that should help in your search for a good Mac for your purposes. It might be worth noting that when you're buying an Apple, it often is a better deal to get a refurbished model and purchase additional AppleCare service agreements. Any reputable dealer will have more information on this for you, if you ask.
Go for MHz over memory. Memory can be added later. Invest in MHz. Also, it seems to be more prudent to buy your memory separately from the computer, for the dealers often use memory to pad the profit margin. For instance, Apple's current rate for 512MB memory on the PowerMac G4 is $300, vs. $71 at a memory retailer. Same thing goes for hard disk drives, though the difference won't be as great, and depending on the model it may be less trouble to buy what they're offering than to do the upgrade yourself. For reference, I have recently found an 80GB 7200RPM drive with an 8MB Buffer for about $114. That's a large, fast drive that surpasses most OEM hardware...
One thing you may want to keep in mind is that Macworld New York is coming up at the end of the month, and Apple may be introducing new hardware, or updating current line-ups at that time. The signs are good, and point to some changes I've been anxiously awaiting for some time now. For instance, Apple recently introduced xServe, which is a rackmount server with a motherboard that uses DDR memory. This change in memory type is an advance that should have been made some time ago, and may percolate down to the non-server models at Macworld NY. If you must buy now, go with the xServe, 1GHz Dual processor: as a professional, it would not be a bad investment. As a home user, it probably isn't suited to your needs, so a tower would be a better choice, but that DDR sure looks yummy!
http://dealmac.com/
Tips on hardware and software deals.
http://dealnn.com/
Tips on hardware and software deals. Different though.
http://www.ramseeker.com/
Good memory prices, provides merchant reviews. Another deal-site, not a retailer.
http://www.powermax.com/
Reasonable retailer, offers new, used and refurbished. Does packages.
http://www.smalldog.com/
http://www.smalldog.com/SmallDogPriceList.txt
Another reasonable retailer, offers new, used and refurbished. Does packages too. Second address is for the pricelist, gives a No BS rundown of the equipment they carry.
Now I've only listed a couple of places here, if you want more let me know. I think you'll notice that the big names (The Apple Store, MacMall, Etc.) aren't listed above, because I figured you could find those easily enough. If you want a list of big guys, email me. They have good deals too sometimes.
Oh, forgot to mention - Apple runs all kinds of rebates and promo's all the time so check their site out for the forms and such. And you don't always have to purchase directly from Apple to qualify, either.
I know I've not answered every specific question, but hopefully you haven't been too swamped with replies at this point and this will help with your purchase.
Good Luck!
PS: I bought an Power Mac G4 450 DP when they were first announced about two years ago, and still use it day-to-day for motion graphics, web development, video work, and fun. I've got 768MB RAM, and am running OS X v. 10.1.5, and my biggest bottleneck at this point is my hard disk drive speed. I will probably be investing in the drive I mentioned above: Western Digital model #WD800JB can be found on PriceWatch.com by searching for "8mb 7200" and if you want the larger model (120GB) look for model #WD1200JB.
I've heard some rumors about apple making a rackmount g4, mostly for pro audio applications. I question the reliability of them though.
c-hack.com |
While I agree that the low-end G4s as they stand are a better price/performance deal, there is more involved than simple clockspeeds with Apple's three configurations. The higher-end systems will net you more memory, better video cards, more storage space, and I believe the two high-end configs feature more cache.
:-)
It may not make enough of a difference, but it's something to consider. As always, there's BTO customization.
But please wait until MWNY.
Check out this mp3 file of the XServe fans....
more info and experiences at this guys homepage
I've got one arriving next week, and from all reports, I'll be wanting to look into whacking it into my networking cabinet just to get it out of my room...
Not quite sure why Apple are marketing it as a workstation though....
Using Xserve as a rackmount workstation
Digital video professionals who are thinking of using Xserve as a rackmount workstation can get built-to-order units from the Apple Store.
i don't read slashdot anymore.
Since you mention you're a developer, definitely check out their developer discounts. If you register as a developer and spend the hundred dollars or so, you get a once-in-a-lifetime discount of about 20-25% off any hardware. A substantial savings over the retail price.
the normal reps don't usually know about this -- you'll have to order through the developer's phone number.
enjoy
-Q
If there is one thing that the towermodel of the powermac isn't, then it's quiet. I used to own a G4/733 but got so fed up with all the noice that I sold it and got an iBook instead.
The G4/733, as all the other Quicksilver macs, has two big fans (three actually, but the third is quite small and doesn't make a lot of noice), one for the PSU and one for the slots. Since the cooling for the CPU on that model is the same as the cooling for the dual 1GHz model, it's possible to disconnect the slot fan and almost reduce the noice level bu half. But that's only if you have ONE harddrive and no other expansion cards but the gfx-adapter.
It worked for me but your milage may vary. I'm a happy iBook owner now since my mac is quiet, small and portable.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --