Seeking Power Mac Recommendations?

Pauly asks: "I'm going to do something I've never done: I'm buying a Mac. I'm a long-time UNIX developer and user for whom the prospect of trading a noisy, heat-spewing workstation or two in favor of a civilized Mac is irresistible. I'm quite used to making x86/*NIX hardware decisions. However, I'm finding myself stumped as I look at the G4/OS X options."

"As attractive as the (i|e)Macs are, I'm pretty certain I'll be getting a G4 tower to re-use my subtantial dual-monitor investment. Specifically, for my needs as a developer and power-user, I wonder:

• Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
• Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
• Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
• What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
• Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
• Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?"

Comments

Some Answers

[dthable]

I don't know answers to some of your questions, but here's been my Unix to Mac conversion experience:

Heat and Noise
Granted my old PC was a monster with all those fans, but I've been shocked by how quite the G4 I bought for my wife is. The amount of heat is about the same, but I've found the cases to transfer the heat better than some of the PC cases I've owned in the past.

SMP Support
My god, I couldn't believe how well OS X handles this. I often just open the CPU monitor to watch the near perfect load balancing. I had a 400 MHz dual G4. Under OS 9, there were only a handful of applications that could even use both processors. Now, OS X takes care of that detail and it's like an instant speed boost.

Memory vs MHz
Even when I purchased PCs, I always took memory as a more critical upgrade that the small MHz difference that I could find. To this day, I have maxed out all of my machines with memory, even if it means passing up the next processor line. Memory is cheaper and still makes a difference in how fast applications will respond.

Good luck with the Mac upgrade.

Buying a PowerMac

[eXtro]

Most of my family are artists, so most of them use Apple computers. They're a lot quieter than any comparable machines I've seen. They aren't silent but compared to the boxes I'm using they seem like a whisper. If you feel the need to immediately spend extra money I'd recommend spending it on processor, there are no aftermarket options (that I know of) for replacing a processor on a current G4. Aftermarket RAM is available for substantially less than what apple charges. In addition their machines are amazingly easy to upgrade.

I'd recommending just getting the minimum configuration you can with the processor speed you want. You can purchase aftermarket hard drives, memory and other components later for substantially less.

For what one family member does with his G4 the SMP support is extremely helpful in terms of raw performance, but you've got to look at your applications and see if they exploit SMP. If you're writing your own code you can obviously make it support SMP, but you didn't really say what you were doing.

IDE on Apple's seem to work a lot better by default than IDE on PCs. I screw around with digital video, my sisters G4/733 captures via firewire without dropping a frame on the internal IDE drive. In order to duplicate this on my Windows 2000 box I had to install a second drive on a seperate bus from the system drive.

That didn't answer your question of course, but I just thought I'd point out that the comparision might not be so cut and dry.

I'd advice getting an aftermarket SCSI card and drive if you do decide to go that way however, you can save some money over Apple's prices.

Some answers

[Lally Singh]

• Depends on the PC you're comparing it with :-). The powermacs are about average, IMHO.
• Memory. MHz doesn't help when you're swapping.
• Pricewise, memory is best bought elsewhere. Most everything else is fairly reasonable.
• Whatever you want! Even the baseline powermac comes with a dual-head capable video card, only one of the outputs is in ADC. Try & find a converter, otherwise a 2nd card will be necessary. I don't know much about the success with 2 cards, but I doubt you'll have a problem.
• the powermacs come with 7200RPM drives by default, and I don't think the IDE is usually a problem. Only if you plan to do some major disk I/O would SCSI be worth the investment. You may be able to buffer it all with enough RAM.

Glad to hear you're making the switch! I have zero regrets and my life has become much simpler without the constant worry about my hardware & unix config. Good luck!

Answers

[medcalf]

PowerMac towers tend to be quieter than x86 boxes. They also tend to be cooler. Design pays.

Memory trumps megahertz, in general, under MacOS X, especially with lots of GUI apps running.

I tend to buy from Apple, except for RAM, but upgrade later from third parties. Get the extended warranty; you probably won't need it but you'll be annoyed if you need it and don't have it.

I'm not really qualified to answer about the video cards, but I've got a couple of friends who have dual GeForce 4 cards and are happy with them.

The SMP support is fantastic!

Unless you are running a server, the SCSI drives are no longer a great deal better than IDE.

Welll....

[SandSpider]

Are modern G4 towers quieter and/or cooler than comparable x86 workstations?
I do believe so. I recall some seriously loud fans on my roommates computers, and my DP 800 isn't nearly that loud. But I haven't done a scientific comparison by any means.

Is it wiser to spend money on memory or megahertz?
Depends on what you need it for. You will need at least 512 MB RAM. If you want super-fast processing, then spend the spare money on MHz, since it's tough to upgrade the macs for processor later. It's not so tricky with RAM.

Is it best to buy everything directly from Apple, or just a minimum to be fleshed out with cheaper, after-market add-ons?
With RAM, not Apple for sure. Everything else in the computer itself, go with Apple. You can get plenty better prices with after-market RAM.

What's the best video option for dual-head on Jaguar?
I'll be getting the GeForce4 Ti with the new machines I'll be ordering. It has two monitor inputs, and will work with the Quartz Extreme acceleration.

Does OS X make SMP worth the investment?
Depends on how much your time is worth. 2 1 GHz Processors will be slower than 1 2 GHz processor, but it's still plenty fast in OS X. If you want speed, get the Dual Processors. They are certainly nice.

Is the SCSI performance gain great enough to be worth the investment over IDE?
If you're not running a server, and you're not some anti-IDE frea...I mean, pro-SCSI evangelist, then no, don't bother with SCSI. for day to day use, IDE is well worth the price. SCSI is more reliable, and it has advantages in being full-duplex apparently, but I haven't run into any bottlenecks using it for my needs, which is print publishing.

Hope this helps

=Brian

BEFORE YOU BUY...!

[Spencerian]

Wait until next week, when the Macworld Expo trade show begins. Next Tuesday is the Keynote address by the Apple CEO, that showmaster himself, Steve Jobs. It's possible that a new Power Mac G4 box will be announced then, which may influence your decision.

OTOH, the current line of hardware is still very robust (albeit lacking badly in system bus, if you ask me) and may be found at cheaper prices as any new hardware is made available.

Generally, the most savvy Macintosh users don't buy anything during the months before the January and July trade shows, but Apple also introduces new product outside of the trade show more often as well.

If you really want to know about CPUs....

[n8_f]

Read some of the posts by BadAndy. He does a lot of embedded development with the G4 and knows them inside and out. I actually have this link bookmarked and check it out every morning after SlashDot.

To summarize, he would say:

• The main problem with the Mac right now is CPU bandwidth, not CPU speed, so hold off until Apple does something to alleviate it. It is widely expected that they will introduce new PowerMacs with the DDR northbridge used in the new Xserve shortly (MacWorld next week or Seybold). That is the bare minimum they can do (because the bus to the CPU is still 133mhz; still, it helps with DMA and it is possible they have hacked the bus to eek out a bit more performance; we really don't know). Wait for that.
• Get a dual.
• Don't necessarily get the latest and greatest CPU, as there has traditionally been a lot of errata to sort out in newer CPUs. You would probably be better off with a slower, older dual.
• If you don't want to wait, you would be better off finding an older dual 533 (if you can) or trying to get a good deal on the current duals (after MacWorld). The best value in the Macs available today would be a used dual 533 (if you can find someone that will part with theirs).

That said, before you do anything, WAIT. Wait until after MacWorld next week and wait until Jaguar is announced (it is supposed to ship in August, so it will probably be announced at MacWorld). Jaguar, with QuartzExtreme, will probably have a big impact on the card you want for dual monitor support.

From my experience, build to order your G4. Get the minimum RAM (single stick; if you have to choose between a 128 stick and a 256 stick you might want to go with the 256), minimum hard drive (optional, Apple isn't horrible and since you have to have one you might want to get one you'll keep) and get rid of things you don't need ($29 modem). RAM you can from Crucial or PriceWatch. Hard drive from PriceWatch or somewhere else. SuperDrives are nice.

Get the best CPU you can (see BadAndy's advice above). You don't really upgrade your CPU, so this is critical.

Don't get it from Apple, but do get RAM. It makes the biggest difference in OS X responsiveness. RAM is cheap, and while I am fine with 160MB in my iBook most of the time, I notice a difference on my slower home machine with 384MB. OS X's window server can basically use as much as you give it.

Hope that helps,
Nathan (n8_f@maccom)

"A general Mac purchasing guide" or "Some Tips"

[glowurm]

Most of this was written to help a friend out, I've updated it to reflect the situation you've discribed. I've included a couple of URL's below that should help in your search for a good Mac for your purposes. It might be worth noting that when you're buying an Apple, it often is a better deal to get a refurbished model and purchase additional AppleCare service agreements. Any reputable dealer will have more information on this for you, if you ask.

Go for MHz over memory. Memory can be added later. Invest in MHz. Also, it seems to be more prudent to buy your memory separately from the computer, for the dealers often use memory to pad the profit margin. For instance, Apple's current rate for 512MB memory on the PowerMac G4 is $300, vs. $71 at a memory retailer. Same thing goes for hard disk drives, though the difference won't be as great, and depending on the model it may be less trouble to buy what they're offering than to do the upgrade yourself. For reference, I have recently found an 80GB 7200RPM drive with an 8MB Buffer for about $114. That's a large, fast drive that surpasses most OEM hardware...

One thing you may want to keep in mind is that Macworld New York is coming up at the end of the month, and Apple may be introducing new hardware, or updating current line-ups at that time. The signs are good, and point to some changes I've been anxiously awaiting for some time now. For instance, Apple recently introduced xServe, which is a rackmount server with a motherboard that uses DDR memory. This change in memory type is an advance that should have been made some time ago, and may percolate down to the non-server models at Macworld NY. If you must buy now, go with the xServe, 1GHz Dual processor: as a professional, it would not be a bad investment. As a home user, it probably isn't suited to your needs, so a tower would be a better choice, but that DDR sure looks yummy!

http://dealmac.com/
Tips on hardware and software deals.

http://dealnn.com/
Tips on hardware and software deals. Different though.

http://www.ramseeker.com/
Good memory prices, provides merchant reviews. Another deal-site, not a retailer.

http://www.powermax.com/
Reasonable retailer, offers new, used and refurbished. Does packages.

http://www.smalldog.com/
http://www.smalldog.com/SmallDogPriceList.txt
Another reasonable retailer, offers new, used and refurbished. Does packages too. Second address is for the pricelist, gives a No BS rundown of the equipment they carry.

Now I've only listed a couple of places here, if you want more let me know. I think you'll notice that the big names (The Apple Store, MacMall, Etc.) aren't listed above, because I figured you could find those easily enough. If you want a list of big guys, email me. They have good deals too sometimes.

Oh, forgot to mention - Apple runs all kinds of rebates and promo's all the time so check their site out for the forms and such. And you don't always have to purchase directly from Apple to qualify, either.

I know I've not answered every specific question, but hopefully you haven't been too swamped with replies at this point and this will help with your purchase.

Good Luck!

PS: I bought an Power Mac G4 450 DP when they were first announced about two years ago, and still use it day-to-day for motion graphics, web development, video work, and fun. I've got 768MB RAM, and am running OS X v. 10.1.5, and my biggest bottleneck at this point is my hard disk drive speed. I will probably be investing in the drive I mentioned above: Western Digital model #WD800JB can be found on PriceWatch.com by searching for "8mb 7200" and if you want the larger model (120GB) look for model #WD1200JB.