e.Digital Promises Another iPod Competitor

joefefifo writes: "e.Digital has a press release describing their Odyssey 1000, supposedly due out in the fall. Some stats: Looks like an iPod, uses USB 2.0., has a 20GB capacity, built-in mic for voice recording and navigation, FM Tuner with 12 presets, Mac & PC compatible, iTunes compatible, runs e.Digital's MicroOS 2.0. Except for the choice of OS, looks pretty sweet. Any chance someone will get it to run Linux instead?" Like Toshiba's little player, it uses USB 2 rather than Firewire.

Comments

Get over it

[G-funk]

Except for the choice of OS, looks pretty sweet

Huh? Except for the choice of OS? This goes too far. Who gives a crap if they don't use linux? It's not like it runs windows, it runs some OS they wrote, that does what it needs to do - play mp3s. If it works, and it does what it's supposed to do, good on them.

Now I'm all for somebody getting one and putting linux on it, but that's "hey a cool hack" value, not something that needs to be done to make the product worthwhile.

Re:Get over it

[Cardhore]

Yeah, I agree. It's not like F-22s or anything really care what operating system they're running, so why should a portable music player?

Re:Get over it

[Oculus Habent]

I understand your desire to have aa portable whatever-you-want, but sometimes you should accept that a device isn't designed/meant to be used in this fashion.

The screen isn't large enough for output not specifically formatted for it. The buttons aren't sufficient for inputting data, unless you want to scroll through the alphabet console-game style. Sure, it can be done, but is it worth it?

My iPod is a FireWire hard drive. It doesn't plug into a network, but you'd need a computer to make it worth anything as a network storage device. If you plug the drive into a computer, the computer can be the samba server much more easily.

Sure, you could play more types of audio formats, but what are you going to listen to? MIDIs? VQFs? OGG, I suppose. There are formats that you could listen to, but is it currently worth it? And, notably, Linux doesn't support any audio format "natively".

I'm not completely familiar with the USB standard, but I don't think you could get the device to talk properly to another peripheral. One big part of USB (not a FireWire limitation) is that peripherals must communicate through the host computer, and not directly.

I don't deny the work people put forth to install Linux on everything isn't amazing, and a testament to the perserverance and ingenuity of people, but, as with case mods, there's a "gee, look what I did" period, and then it's gone, becuase the functoin isn't worth the hassle.

DRM support

[NiceGeek]

I don't care how cool it looks...I'm not supporting any device that has DRM support.

Heard it before

[AIXadmin]

When the iMac came out, this same thing happened. With in six months there were rip offs from such notables as Dell, Gateway, and IBM. None of nock-offs have survived. The iMac is still around and selling well.

Apple just seems to have some kind of magic when it comes to product design. That few others if any have.

Re:Heard it before

[deviator]

It's not magic - it's the right mix of very smart people combined with management who lets those designers (really artists) realize their vision with few restrictions.

...ever notice how Apple isn't constantly concerned with "make it as cheap as possible?" Sometimes it seems they're the ONLY company who won't compromise ideals in favor of cost; that's why their designs are so successful.

Re:Heard it before

[NickV]

Wow... time to stop the troll that probably doesn't realize he is a troll... ok, here we goooo!

Uhh, I didn't say ISA or Nubus or whateverthehellyoucallit is _better_, just that anyone with legacy cards gets screwed with a Mac, whereas with a PC, anyone with a little clue can save a couple of bucks on a soundcard, printer port, serial port, or even a SCSI board for a scanner if they get a Mobo with an ISA slot.

Cough Cough... so basically you're pissed off that the mac doesn't allow you to use your old 2 Meg Matrox Millennium card and Adlib soundcard the way a PC does right?
First of all, all macs nowadays come with PCI on the motherboard. I'm sorry, ISA is a dead technology and one I don't really think we should be clinging on to. Extending your logic, do you think modern PCs should have support for Cassette data tapes? The PowerMac uses IDE and PCI and AGP, what more do you want? Commodore 64 Expansion Card support?

>And to top it off, today's Macs ARE PowerPC, dumbass.

Well, fuck you very much. I'm obviously no Mac afficando, but I do know I have better manners than you.

Ok you're right, he was obnoxious but he did effectively shut you up and immediately destroy a significant part of your argument.

>If you need a serial port, you can get an adapter.

Which won't work for my applications. And won't work with (albeit outdated) older software.

Not to mention that the older busses, such as ISA are just so much simpler to hack with.

First of all to part one, the adapter works natively in all applications on Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X. Sure it doesn't work on your 1986 copy of Excel 1.0, but once again, I don't think that's much of an issue. It works with ALL mac software made post 1996. And the ISA comment, I won't even go there it's so ignorant.

Well, you really don't need to guess. By all reason, if you were to cut out artists from the equation, Mac is dead.

You mean the HUGE digital video market? You mean the HUGE post production market? Ever heard of Final Cut Pro and how it's completely eroding AVID's market share (do you even know who Avid is?) Not to mention the XServes that are flying off the shelf because they are incredible 1U servers, which you obviously haven't even read the tech specs of (but nah, rhetoric always beats facts right?)

Oh, and companies like intel don't lie about the performance of their computers (well, in the case of PCs, CPUs) whereas Apple prefers to do the next best thing to lying -- finding one or two applications that are faster on your computer (mostly because they were designed on your computer) and say your entire computer is the best on earth.

Right, and companies like ATI fix benchmarks so when they see "quake2.exe" they perform 20% faster. Frankly those two apps are used (Final Cut and Photoshop) because that's what a HUGE mac audience looks for. No offense, but unless you want to play Unreal Tournament 2003 at 1600x1280 at 200fps (which is what ALL pc benchmarks perform to) you don't really need to care about benchmarks as much as how well the machine works. (GASP, what a concept!)

Blech. Keep those overgrown (and damn HOT) plastic tissue boxes away from me. Give me a computer with quality RF sheilding and a proper heat extraction system anyday. Not to mention I prefer to buy a decent monitor and speakers for even my cheap systems. And not to mention that a majority of non-geeks I know like to have a good monitor and speakers. I thought we gave up on built in monitors during the TRS-80 and PET days?

Ok, two points that highlight your innane cluelessness. Ever compared the heat disappation of a PowerPC to an intel or AMD processor? Probably not. Ever seen a completely fanless fully loaded AMD Athlon? You know the Athlon melts in 7 seconds without a heatsink right? (I did that once by accident, but got it replaced) There is one apple machine with a fan right now, and it's the PowerMac. They're beautiful, QUIET, machines. Have you ever even SEEN an apple machine (or at least heard one?)
The other point, have you ever seen the iMac screen or any Apple flat screen? I mean, these screens are used by major print houses because of their color accuracy. I stare at one of those "AMAZING SGI wide screen" monitors all day at work, one of those "AMAZING DELL 17" digital" flat screens at college and NONE match the viewing angle, color accuracy and refresh of the apple monitors. Read any review and you'll see the exact same thing.

And yes, I know you can buy Macs without built in monitors, I just think its insane that it often costs more to get one without a monitor than with!]

Wow, you didn't have on REAL point in the whole post. You can get a lowend powermac (without monitor) for less than the iMac.
How about doing some actual RESEARCH before posting? Maybe, just go to the apple site at least once instead of feeding off of your preconcieved blatantly biased notions?

Previous e.digital MP3 player no good

[mstra]

I got a Treo 10 several months ago (early in 2002), and the thing was truly no good.

Software never was able to consistently connect to the device, it's a TON heavier than my iPod, and I swear, the thing RATTLES.

I'll stick with my iPod, thanks.

m.

Archos Jukebox

[chaidawg]

Can anyone explain to me why people think there are no options for a PC based portable MP3 player? I have had the 20g Archos Jukebox for five months now and I couldn't be happier with it. Sure it only uses USB 1, but how often do you need to fill 20 gigs?

I put my 5 gigs of music on it overnight when I first bought it and spend a couple of minutes each week putting on my new music. All of that with 2 sets of rechargable 6 hour life batteris for $300. I will admit that the UI is not as pretty as on the iPod but for the price and size difference, I don't care.

If you want to take a look at one go to archos.com

Re:Archos Jukebox

[Kevinv]

I refill the 10GB on my iPod weekly. I'm at about 26 GB of MP3s (with still more cd's to convert yet) and it's easier to just delete everything on the iPod and upload whatever set of playlists i'm in the mood for.

No way would i go with a USB 1 device for over 250MB.

When will somebody manufacture

[t0qer]

Just a simple box that I can plug my OWN hard drives into?

All I want, and please hear me out, is a pretty plastic box big enough to fit a laptop drive. Put a rechargable lithium ion battery in it. Some sort of LCD screen, Alphanumeric, TFT display, I don't care.

Keep the OS in a rom so I don't have to worry about storing it on the hard drive. Make sure there is enough OS to format the drive fat32.

And I want all this for about $100 bucks. I think that's fair. Why do I need to buy another laptop drive when I got so many sitting around?

Re: When will somebody manufacture

[pjrc]

Just a simple box that I can plug my OWN hard drives into?

Have you see my little open-source mp3 player circuit board project?? Yes, a shameless plug, but on-topic. I have the Neo guys also sell a box that you can plug your own drive into... or at least they did some time ago.

All I want, and please hear me out, is a pretty plastic box big enough to fit a laptop drive. Put a rechargable lithium ion battery in it. Some sort of LCD screen, Alphanumeric, TFT display, I don't care.

Saddly, there's nothing simple about pretty plastic boxes and li-ion batteries. Injection molding involved tooling costs in the range of $20k to $60k. Li-ion batteries are complex and take special circuits. They're only sold to a small number of companies who make custom battery packs (because the packs include critical safety circuits). High tooling setup fees also apply to Li-ion battery packs.

Keep the OS in a rom so I don't have to worry about storing it on the hard drive. Make sure there is enough OS to format the drive fat32.

Yep, did that. It's all GPL'd too, available from a CVS server, or on this firmware download page.

And I want all this for about $100 bucks. I think that's fair.

That would be fair, if you and millions of others were serious buyers.

But the do-it-yourself market is a niche, and the economy of scale associated with mass production just isn't possible. Still, I've tried to keep the costs low (and also keep it buildable for hobbists with hand soldering). By the time you add the LCD, it's at about twice the "fair" $100 mark. If you go price the parts alone (not even soldered together) at small quantity, you'll find you're well over $100. If you're Creative Labs or Apple building millions in China, you can make it that cheap, but a niche market as small volumes, it just isn't possible.

Anyway, later this year I'm planning to make a car stereo cd changer protocol emulator board, so this thing can emulate a cd changer (but with lots of discs with lots of files... depends on the limitations of each deck and its protocol).

E.Digital is a penny-stock scam!

[Anonymous Coward]

Many, many people see e.digital as being nothing more than a pump-and-dump penny stock scam, and there certainly is enough evidence to back it up.

This article barely touches the depth of shady deals this company is engaged in:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/bauder /20020707-9999_1b7bauder.html

They've announced several vaporware mp3 players, which caused a stock pump, and when nothing panned out the 'dump' came and the stock once again dropped. The few units they were able to manufacture are now being liquidated on ebay and various liquidator companies.

Most recently, the company has engaged in extremely questionable financial arrangements in order to stay afloat - they recently took out a $1.5 million loan with 100% of their company's assets as colatteral, to a shady off-shore entity, in a clear case of death-spiral financing.

This company currently has several hundred million outstanding shares, and is still issuing more.

The principals of the company have made something of a career out of pump-and-dump companies - look at the histories of Patriot Scientific (java procesor hype) and ATC (hyped audio technology). They're also involved in promoting movies and solo-flying machines. All the same gang. Decades of scam companies, lies and misleading statements to shareholders, and never once a real product or profits.

E.Digital does not deserve in any way to get this kind of exposure on slashdot.

(Disclaimer: I have never owned any shares, but I do know several people who were hoodwinked into purchasing shares, and lost a huge amount of money.)

Re:E.Digital is a penny-stock scam!

[HEbGb]

I'll have to agree, based on what I know about them. From $0.05 to $24, and back to $0.45, all without profit or real sales, is quite a ride.

There's quite an active discussion of them over at the Reging bull stock chat site.

A very long but extremely informative post about these financial issues is here.

DRM Support!! Whoopee!

[-tji]

Wow, look at that feature list... 20GB storage, 16MB buffer, AM/FM radio, and best of all:

# WMA Digital Rights Management (DRM) support

Those marketroids really know how to sell a product. I'm sure customers will be clamoring for that feature.

Re:DRM use isn't mandatory

[sweet reason]

buying a DRM-enabled device does have an effect even if you don't use the feature: the more DRM-supporting boxes there are in people's hands, the less the RIAA will have to worry about losing customers who can't play DRM-encumbered music.

USB? Ugh.

[__david__]

Why do all these companies think that USB 2.0 is ok? Has anyone ever benchmarked USB 2.0? It is sssssslllllooooowwww! [1] Some needs to smack these designers and make them put a REAL bus (like FireWire) on these devices. When you are talking about significant ammounts of data its very important that your bus be as fast as it can be. Sadly, USB 2.0 just doesn't cut it.

I've been waiting for some company to come out with an iPod competitor to drive the prices down, but no one is going to be able to compete (in my mind) until they make a FireWire version.

-David

[1] We've run many tests at our company with USB 2.0 and FireWire to ATA bridges, and without fail the USB 2.0 are (at best!) half the speed of FireWire. This is especially pathetic when you see that USB's max bandwidth is 480 Mbits, and FireWire is 400. I don't know if its inefficient protocols, crappy drivers, crappy host bus chips or crappy bridge chips but whatever it is USB 2.0 is substandard. Avoid it.

Re:USB? Ugh.

[iphayd]

"This is especially pathetic when you see that USB's max bandwidth is 480 Mbits, and FireWire is 400."

This is the only incorrect statement in your post, and it is also why your results are crappy.

It should read...

"USB2's results are so pathetic because its max. bandwith is 480Mbps, while firewire has a sustained rate of 400Mbps."

USB2's 480Mbps is FUD, aimed squarely across Firewire's bow. The pathetic thing is that it is working.

Re:usb 2?

[gerardrj]

That page you linked to shows that USB-2.0 real-world througput is often 1/2 that of FireWire when talking to the same device.
So the question remains... if FW and USB2 PCI cards cost about the same, and FW is masterless, is faster, and is already standard on so many devices, WHY use USB2?

Never happen, for two reasons

[ColGraff]

One, the average user - you know, the kind that thinks Yahoo is cool and is scared of command prompts - is not going to be very willing to install his or her own hard drive. Yes, I know, it's simplicity itself, but too many people have an unreasoning fear of computer parts, and will not touch them. Period.

Two, the whole trend is towards more digital rights management, which is all about controlling what goes on a player. Forcing the user to buy a unit with the hard drive sealed in, and loading music using proprietary software, makes controlling what goes on the player much easier than letting people use their own drives.

Also, I hope when you say "ROM", you mean flashable ROM - it would stink if you were stuck with only the formats available when the unit came out, and couldn't upgrade to new standards later.

Percentage of USB Ready Computers

[Scyber]

Is greater than Firewire Ready Computers. That is the simple reason why they supported USB2.0. Granted using it on USB 1.0 would be slow, but at least it can be used. If you were a 3rd party company looking to sell a product to as many people as possible you would make the same choice too.

Re:Not *truly* Mac compatible

[Oculus Habent]

Most PCs don't have USB 2.0 yet. FireWire is becoming more available. DEll now offers a video editing studio with FireWire card for $50. It is already being used in a number of peripherals (many USB 2.0 devices also have FireWire interfaces).

FireWire also allows devices to communicate directly, reducing system overhead.

It also allows more power than the USB specification.

--
Just my thoughts.

Apple doesn't charge a royalty for Firewire

[Catbeller]

Another fine myth: Apple charging freight for using 1393.

Nope. Years back, the fee was $1.00. Now, I think it's nothing.

How much does Intel charge for USB? And why are they influencing the market by retarding adoption? Firewire is superior to USB 1&2 in every way, and Firewire 2 will be insane.

FW is expensive because Intel wants it that way. They don't want Apple to succeed, and they've too much investment in USB teh to let it go.

Re:usb 2?

[Oculus Habent]

nVidia's new nForce2 chipset has USB 2.0 and FireWire support. I have seen firewire on the front panel of some Compaqs (a little while ago). It is available on Dells. I can't speak for anything else, as I don't regularly go computer shopping. The latest in MicroATX computers (Shuttle) have FireWire onboard.

Sure, USB 2.0 is a bit faster. But it incurs more host overhead (especially communicating between two devices) and doesn't offer as much power.

USB 2.0 would be great if FireWire didn't already exists. It is not needed, and the decision between USB 2.0 and FireWire hurts people's ability to purchase new devices.

USB 1.1 is fine for what it is: high speed serial ports. Keyboards, mice, tablets, floppy drives, low-end webcams, some scanners... It doesn't need to be more than that. FireWire is physically as easy, and is a more versatile technology.