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Take a Mac User to Lunch

A Slashdot reader writes "LinuxWorld is running a story explaining how Mac OS X may help break down the walls for non-Windows operating systems, including Linux."

10 of 477 comments (clear)

  1. Apple...Unix...Linux by Noofus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Up until OS X was released I used Linux (on my G3 and on various intel boxes) nearly exclusivly. OS X (after its quirks were mostly worked out), for me, is acting just like a Unix system. I control most things from its terminal. I run XDarwin and use blackbox as my primary control when I am writing code. I use the standard Aqua interface when I'm just being a bum and surfing. Its a web server, file server and just about any other kind of server I can get running.

    So now my time is spent working with both OS X/BSD and Linux and im loving every minute of it. Im forced to use Win 2K at work - but hells if I am ever gonna buy a windows box of my own.

    OK - the point: (I knew I was getting there) OS X is a great way to get people to migrate into a Unix world. The Apple servers are selling well, and its adding a great deal of Unix exposure...

  2. For the 76,432,564,345th time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It isn't about destroying Microsoft! Think about it; we destroy Microsoft and replace them with Apple. Another closed system! Why is that of any benefit to us, as users and developers? All we will have done is swapped the "Microsoft Tax" and all that comes with it, for an "Apple Tax", and the same all over again (See .mac Say no more).

    If you're just using Linux, or BSD or whatever, just because you want to destroy Microsoft, many you should re-evalute your belief system. Free Software is about having freedom; the freedom to use your software as you see fit, and the freedom to modify that software to fit your needs. Its not about destroying commericalism, simply because you think they have too much money.

    Yes, Microsoft have too much control over the industry, but thats only because the industry has allowed itself to be lead by the nose by them. It is true that Free software provides an alternative to that, and get out clause if you will, and yes, that may altimutly lead to the reduction of Microsoft. That would simply be a secondary, a side effect, if you will.

    So yes, take a Macintosh user out to lunch; and then try to get them to understand the issues surrounding the use of Free software.

    1. Re:For the 76,432,564,345th time! by BitGeek · · Score: 5, Insightful


      Darwin IS a Free Software platform.

      (Free as in open source, not free as in GNU/totalitarian)

      You can run X windows, or any of the apps you like on it. you can configure it as much as you like.

      You have the freedom, flexibility and choice you do with linux-- install whatever you wish, however you wish.

      Never even use the Aqua UI if you don't want. Plus, on top of all that, you get to run it on those really cool, innovative Mac hardware- IF YOU WANT. If you don't want, run it on x86 Hardware.

      Supporting Darwin is supporting FREE SOFTWARE, to the detriment of Microsoft.

      There is no such thing as an "Apple Tax". Darwin is Open Source and so it could never be a "Tax" that you have to pay against your will. IF you want to buy apple software too, like the Aqua UI, or .Mac, then you can-- but you don't have too.

      It is disingenuous to compare this to a company that charges people for its software whether they want it, use it or buy it, or not. Apple only charges people who freely choose to buy its software. Calling it an "apple tax" only undermines your creditability.

      And the important point is that by charghing for their UI and their software, and by making hardware, Apple is able to fund desktop unix in a way that nobody has been able to for Linux. Rad Hat has done an admirable job-- and most of their work and apple work compliments each other.

      The battle is between Free Software (eg. Darwin/Linux/BSD/GNU) and totalitarian software that you have to use whether you want it or not.

      Therefore, if you really believe in choice and freedom, you MUST support Apple and Darwin. Doesn't mean you have to buy their software or hardware-- but opposing it is opposing freedom.

      --
      Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/ 1816257
  3. Re:OSX is the proof by stew77 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wish the KDE and Gnome developers would take OS X as a hint on the golden rule to provide a usable UI: Less is more.
    Don't spam the user with options, dialogs, shortcuts and themes. Keep it simple, straightforward and consistent. OS X doesn't even allow you to change the default UI fonts or colours, since it is not necessary at all. Just throw away everything that is not essential, and focus on core functionality instead of gimmicks.

  4. MCSE's are a different matter by wazzzup · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I see a small percentage of Xserve's making it into shops that already have Unix servers or a substantial base of Mac workstations. I don't see Apple making much headway into 100% Windows shops run by MCSE's.

    People that have/allow Unix or Linux boxes in thier shops generally are more open to a wide range of technologies and have a good understanding of them.

    MCSE's - oy vey. I've seen Macs running on their own separate networks because "they can't do Windows networking" or "Macs can't do DHCP" or "Macs can't ". Hell, there probably isn't a Mac user out there that hasn't heard "I hate Macs". Then you ask if they've ever used one and you get "No." Basically, if they don't know whether or not a Mac can do something or not, it's assumed they can't.

    Unix sysadmins seem more open to other technology and generally better knowing how things like networks really function. MCSE's, on the other hand, know what button to push when happens and if that doesn't work, reboot. They don't really have a deep understanding of the underlying technology and generally don't keep up with computing trends. They know how to run a Windows network and "what else do I need to know, thank you" attitude.

    Because of MCSE's, I just don't see Apple making inroads into the corporate server room anytime soon.

    1. Re:MCSE's are a different matter by Animgif · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would actually like to respectfully disagree with you, wazzzup. I am an MCSE, work in a 100% Microsoft shop, deal with Dell servers and desktops running W2K all day long, and then go home to my lovely iMac! I have one of the new G4 flat-panel models and can't get enough of it! Infact, I have convinces 2 of my "MCSE" buddies to get them for their home use as well, ESPECIALLY since Microsoft released a native RDP client for OS X last week!

      So, I just think that your classification of all MCSE's as mindless drones is a little off...there are bad sysadmins on EVERY platform. Microsoft just tends to make a more "user-friendly" platform, thus leaving itself open to more under-qualified people getting jobs doing admin work.

      --
      ------ This has been provided as a public service! ------
  5. Mac running OS X == great development box by d3xt3r · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I am a software developer, right now working fairly exclusively in Java. For the past two years I had been a Linux on the desktop advocate and was willing to make due with some of my unhappiness with the available window managers. Gnome, KDE, etc, etc each have their strengths and weaknesses, but I am not here to start a Linux vs. XXX war.

    Point is, earlier this year - after reading a bunch or articles about how great the new Mac OS is - I decided to go check the Mac out. Let me just say, I was very impressed. I recently replaced my Linux development box with a TiBook. The Aqua user interface is incredibly intuitive, easy on the eyes, and has support for many things that a desktop linux system just doesn't, IMHO.

    Anyway, I still use Linux boxes for our servers but I have found the Mac to be the best development environment I've ever used. The UI might take a few days to get comfortable with (coming from the KDE/Gnome or Windows platform), but once you use it for bit, you really start to appreciate it's consistency and beauty.

    That said, my interest has been peaked by the new Xserve. Like I said, I do a lot of Java development and the JVM implementation on OS X is nothing short of amazing. Java Swing apps look native and don't feel over-bloated and the speed and efficiency of the JVM for non-UI tasks is also astounding.

    The pure java application that I am currently working on runs faster on my TiBook than on the Linux server on which I am also testing it. The process overhead and cpu usage for completing the same tasks are relatively lower on the Mac meaning I can run many more processes at once on the Mac. This is leading me to the conclusion that getting my hands on an Xserve might not be a bad idea before I go ahead and deploy on a Linux box.

    I think everyone else should take a serious look at the Xserve as well.

    Anyone wanna take me to lunch?

  6. Apple migrated to BSD lust like RISC by crovira · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple started out with the Apple I. It only sold to hobbyists, a small market. Apple learned.

    They quickly moved on to the Apple II on the 6052. That grew the company sereval times. Apple learned.

    The less said about the Apple III hardware the better. There were lots of manufacturing problems. Apple learned.

    Then came the Lisa. There were lots of marketing problems. Apple learned.

    The Mac started as a cute, slightly runky-dink 680x0 machine. They tossed out compatibility. Cost them their entire existing software base. Apple learned.

    The original Mac lap-top was an embarrassment. Apple learned.

    Then Apple became the leading manufacturer of RISC machines in the world when they went to the 60x hardware architecture. This was accomplished without repeating the previous mistakes. (What Apple learned was purely internal politics that time.)

    NeXT failed as a hardware manufacturer but it had great software. It was the NeXTStep... Jobs came back and Apple learned.

    Apple did the iMac because Apple had learned: Ugly, beige is boring "office-ware."

    Apple did the PowerPC, the colored iBook, the Titanium and the white iBook because Apple had learned.

    Apple did the sexy, "fold-out completely open" towers because Apple had learned: Hard to maintain is, uh, hard to maintain.

    Apple went to OS X. It could even attempt this because it had SUCCESSFULLY migrated CPU hardware platforms before. It had SUCCESSFULLY migrated form factors (Mac, desk-top, towers, laptop.)

    Look at the Newton. Carefully. With time-lines, feature-lists, internal structures and compared with what else was out there and what spun off.

    Apple has survived more changes, flops, failures, created more products that are a delight to use, been imitated by more companies regardless of industry, than almost any other company I can think of BECAUSE it DOESN'T listen to its customers UNTIL they start saying "No We don't buy it." (*)

    It will soon have shiped more BSD/Darwin (OpenSource) RISC (G3/G4[/G5 soon?]) boxes than the sum total of Unix/Linux boxen out there.

    This is a GOOD THING.

    Will Apple grow to dominate the desk top?

    Get a grip. It doesn't even want to go there.

    That may be where the money WAS but growth is flat, the competition is outrageous, Linux is already there, its darn near (as in beer,) carving out its own space and has an enormous developper base.

    The OS wars are OVER. Unix is going to win hands down.

    Linux runs on EVERYTHING!

    Unix is used for every serious, mission critical system.

    OS X is locking up the creative market place.

    Windows has NEVER migrated to ANY other platform than the x86. Its not for want of trying. They have already failed at it.

    The new PC chip architectures (Intel/HPs & AMDs) are already Linux playgrounds. The chip makers are tired of the x86 architecture and want to get on to the next stage. But windows is holding them back.

    Windows is extremely vulnerable to security breaches and even more vulnerable to the processing requirements of biometric security data.

    The changes M$ themselves are fostering (DRM, and securing their sieve-like OS) are going to be their undoing. Entire countries are rebelling at having to get on and stay on the upgrade tread-mill. The day Linux becomes "good enough" (and OpenOffice is almost there,) M$ sales will start a downward curve faster than the supporting economy.

    Remember. Desktop machines are OVERHEAD. Reducing overhead is how M$ got to be where it is today. Its how Linux will get to where its going. Its been happening time and time again. (Read "The Innovator's Dilemma.")

    *) That is one thing Jobs and Linus share: The ability to say, "Lets do this because its cool (least I think so!)" And then tweak, fiddle and put in the hours fixing things until they damn well work. If they don't... "Well lets see what we can learn from this."

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  7. Just migrated my wife from Debian/x86 to an iMac by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    My wife had wanted an iMac since she first saw one:

    Her: "It so cute!"
    Me: "Yeah, but you're used to Linux, and I'm not sure if you'd like a Mac."
    Her: "I know, but it's so cute!"
    Me: "But you only get one mouse button!"
    Her: "It's just too darn cute!"

    The iMac commercial where the guy sticks out his tongue and the machine ejects its CD tray clinched the deal - we were bound to get an Apple. Last weekend we finally decided to make a short roadtrip (120 miles to the local dealer) to get her new machine.

    I have to admit, Apple did it right. Samba was easy to set up (I haven't bothered with NFS yet, but it's supposed to be equally slick) so she has access to her old Linux home directory, her old email, the MP3/Ogg directory, etc. The interface is just plain beautiful, and I was quite happy to open that terminal window and start playing with sudo. Last night, she just downloaded and installed software by herself for the first time ever ("Hey, that was pretty easy!"), which was something that she was never really interested in on Debian.

    Would I personally switch to Mac OS X? Probably not - I'm a big Free Software advocate. Still, her little iMac is the nicest-looking Unix workstation I've ever seen, my wife loves it and its ease of operation, and it took less time to integrate into our LAN than it's taking me to type this. I'm impressed. Congratulations, Apple. You made a Unix workstation that non-geeks can fall in love with.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  8. Re:OSX is the proof by tshak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OSX is the proof that all those people screaming that Linux on Joe Average's desktop is impossible are wrong.


    Absolutely not. It has nothing to do about the technology and everything to do with the company, or lack thereof. Programming is only a fraction of software development, and the Open Source community is made up of mainly programmers and software testers.

    OSX is proof that a proper balance of both Open Source and Proprietary software is required to make a good consumer OS. While Linux has spent years trying to get it right, Apple got it right in a short period of time. Apple has invested millions in market research, usability studies, product design, and more. They would not profit off of this investment had this all gone open source. However, what they did do is base the core OS on the OSS model. This makes sense as there is less room for proprietary innovation, and more room for community investment. It's this balance that allowed OS X to create the first successful Unix on the Desktop.

    --

    There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips