Do You Know Where You Live?

An anonymous submitter writes "Thanks to GPS, it seems quite a few people are discovering they don't live where they thought. Prior to GPS, state, county and city borders were part law, part measurement, and part guesswork. Now, they're able to go back and discover where actual borders should be, and it's making many people unhappy. Some familes in Rhode Island are finding out they may actually live in Connecticut. Each state, county and city wants as much land as possible, because it means more tax income. The people caught in the middle simply want to know where they'll send their kids for school."

Comments

Borders

[ThereIsNoSporkNeo]

NOOOOOOOoooooooo...

I'm Canadian!

Re:Borders

[Angry White Guy]

Maybe we could use GPS to get back the portions of Alaska that stretch down our west coast!

Idiocy at it's best.

Re:Borders

[Medevo]

If you read history, in about 1900 Canada and the USA were fighting over Alaska (and those coastal regions). Since Canada was still pretty much a British colony the British and Americans formed a group of 5 (2 Americans, 2 British, 1 Canadian) that heard arguments from both sides, and were to vote based on the arguments. In the End the British decided to vote for the Americans to help improve relations (this is one of many times the British sold of Canada to create favors for themselves).

Medevo

Re:Borders

[_ph1ux_]

"I'm Canadian"

It like an american - but without the gun.

Re:Borders

[CableModemSniper]

Redundant unfunny Simpson's quote:

"Why should we leave America to visit America Junior?"

Re:Borders

[paladin_tom]

Ahem... may I as what you consider a real beer?

Yes, you've used "eh" correctly. It's most often used to transform a statement ("American beer tastes like cow piss.") into a question ("American beer tastes like cow piss, eh?").

However, if you replace "no" with "eh", you should remove the "Surely". Otherwise you're mixing "British aristocrat" with "Canadian lumberjack", in a way that nature did not intend.

Re:Borders

[Zone5]

Interesting opinion. Have you ever tried *listening* to one of the british trying to speak their own language? It's obvious that at one time they spoke the queen's english, but that is no longer the case. Canadians do in fact on average speak a more 'pure' dialect of the english language than do the english people themselves.

If one were to accept the premise that the shifting of a language over time in its homeland remained the accepted standard for that language, wouldn't welsh and manx both be considered alive and well, and stunningly similar to common english?

Re:Borders

[cmallinson]

Actually, it's like an american, but without pretending that you are the center of the universe.

Why would americans pretend they're from Toronto?

Re:Borders

[wdr1]

Actually, it's like an american, but without pretending that you are the center of the universe.

Or rather, it's like being an american, but without BEING the center of the universe. ;-)

-Bill

Related problem

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

I used to work in the Oil-n-Gas business (petroleum, not Taco Bell) and that industry is grappling with the same question about well spotting -- the exact surface location of a well. Historically, they are identified via footage calls from a known location (e.g. 354' N, 287' E of SW corner of such-n-such)
While the state agencies would love to have nice, precise lat-lon coords, the property owners often refuse access to the survey crews because an accurate survey may show that the property line is incorrect, and Farmer Smith never really owned the well, it's on Farmer Johnson's land.
The real financial impact can be huge.

Re:Related problem

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

the property owners often refuse access to the survey crews

It amazes me people can refuse access. Even if you believe in the virtual sancitity of private property you own, until the survey is done, you don't know you own it. Couldn't the state argue that, to know where your "denial" begins, they need to get on your land anyway?

For that matter, say Farmer Johnson thinks the well is on his land. Can't he grant access for the survey team to walk the perimeter of his land, and then see where the well ends up?

Re:Related problem

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Blockquoth right back atcha:

It amazes me people can refuse access. Even if you believe in the virtual sancitity of private property you own, until the survey is done, you don't know you own it. Couldn't the state argue that, to know where your "denial" begins, they need to get on your land anyway?

In some parts of the county (Mississippi, to be precise) the state survey crews have been greeted by shotgun-toting farmers (ranchers? I've not spent a lot of time in MS) when the survey crews come to call. When I say they are refusing access, I don't mean some lawyer in a suit, I mean a very simple, literal (and effective!) refusal. In a very rural setting like this, the survey crew isn't going to get a lot of support from the local sherrif, and the state law enforcement has better things to do.

For that matter, say Farmer Johnson thinks the well is on his land. Can't he grant access for the survey team to walk the perimeter of his land, and then see where the well ends up?

In many cases, this is exactly how the state (dept of revenue in some places, dept of environmental quality in others) is getting the job done. Doesn't always work though, there may be several wells along the property line, some on each side. It's an agrarian Prisoner's Dillema!
What's always been funny to me is that the state agencies that care about well locations don't care at all about property lines. One of the most effective efforts involved establishing fixed points for differential GPS, then sending backpack-sized receivers in with the well maintenance crews. It's a nutty industry all around.

No surprise

[Deadstick]

In writing the manual for some civil engineering software back in the 80s, I found that there are some very oddly laid-out survey markers out there, especially in the plains states. The client explained that most of these were laid in the mid-19th century, which was the peak period of American alcohol consumption.

rj

well...

[Auckerman]

I suspect in the cases sited, which used rivers to determine boundries, you will see the old common law agreements sticks. When you are measuring within a few feet to find a spot that moves (a few yards) with the seasons, on both sides of the border no less), you're new "accurate" measurement has little value and one is still stuck with simple common agreement.

Would be an easy case to present, and keeping common agreed boundries is a no brainer. If one starts using fixed points on boundries, who's to say a narrow river that is used as a boundry will not just move entirely into another state or county...imagine the implications for water management...

No rational person wants that.

Re:well...

[Lumpish Scholar]

No rational person wants that.

True; but we're talking about lawyers and politicians....

Re:well...

[ckedge]

GPS Coordinates, I'd imagine that they don't account for continental drift, eh?

One inch a year adds up over a century or two. So by default you can't use precise GPS coordinates, unless you account year by year for all the plate movement.

Very Easy Solution

[unsinged int]

Just make a 51st state that includes Everyone Living on the Thick Black Lines of the US Map. Think of all the interstate commerce with all the states they'd border! Oh, but wait, what about the people living on the border between the new Border State and the other states? Let's create another...ouch. **Brain implosion**

Re:use common sense...

[stoolpigeon]

such as taxes, etc, that's fine...they don't directly effect your day-to-day life

You must not have a job yet.

There is also a lot more than taxes or schools involved that directly impact peoples daily lives. State laws can vary greatly. I'm in the middle of my state. But what if I lived near some other state and suddenly things I own are illegal (I've got a rifle that would fit this easily in some places)

This is a pretty big deal and I think what will have to utlimately happen is people will need to move if they really don't want to live where they really live.

Reminds me of Four Corners....

[wowbagger]

Last year, I went through Four Corners - for those of you not up on your US geography, Four Corners is the point at which Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah all meet, being the only place in the US where 4 states meet.

I was struck by the arbitrariness of this location - it was nothing but a meeting of fictional lines on a map. There was no magical property of this location - c was still 3E8 m/sec (to 1 significant digit), 9.8 m/sec^2 acceleration, no majestic peaks, poles, or pyramids rising from the ground. Save for a decision made by a bunch of beaurcrats there was nothing special about this location.

This article strikes me the same way. Due to a complete non-event (the changing of a line on a map), people's lives are going through upheaval.

So we are able to more accurately define these imaginary lines. Why do we need to change the location of the border - why not just more accurately define existing practice. Look at a map of Kansas - the state USED to be a simple rectangle, until somebody decided to use the river to define the northeast corner. Now we have the silliness of "Kansas City, Mo!"

It just seems so wasteful!

Re:Reminds me of Four Corners....

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

there was nothing special about this location.

What is special about Four Corners is exactly that there is nothing special. The mid-US states are amazing in the political undertone. Look, those borders were drawn by some guys with a pencil and straightedge. No natural fortification. No concern for defensible borders. No historical or trade mandates. What a wonderful thing to break free of that mindset! Those lines were drawn for administrative convenience only.

Re:use common sense...

[Zapman]

The problem with this is that both RI and Conn. are planning on sending taxes to these residences, and BOTH expect to collect. If they don't they will take these people to court in either RI or Conn, where they will be guilty.

What do you do in that case? It certainly will impact you, especially if one state is a tourism state (collects lots of revenue from sales tax) and the other is a property tax state.

--Jason

For all you non-Rhode Islanders

[RadioheadKid]

First off, c'mon RI is so small anyways, just let them have a little more land. You know that little chunk that Massachusetts has along the top of CT, I think CT is still pissed off about that and taking it out on RI.

The other amusing thing is this quote: "It bothers me giving up my low-number license plate with my initials on it." It's kind of a hobby, maybe even an obsession, of some people in RI to try and get a low number (or as they say in RI "low numba") license plate, for example if you had w-12, you would be all the envy in the state. License plates are typically two letters and three numbers in RI.

Re:For all you non-Rhode Islanders

[jc42]

> You know that little chunk that Massachusetts has along the top of CT, I think CT is still pissed off about that ...

Well, I always thought that was a tab so that Massachusetts wouldn't just slide out to sea.

Re:use common sense...

[Dynedain]

But where does that funding come from to pay for the kid's schooling? Property taxes. No state is going to want to take a decrease in their property taxes without the associated decrease in students. So a change in tax structure will affect everyday lives. The money to pay for that kid's education doesn't just appear out of loopholes, and it would cost more to transfer the money between states than it does to send that kid to school.

And what happens when the parents have another kid? Does he/she go to the same school or to one in their "new" state? How long does it get grandfathered? One generation? One continuous family line? Does it stick with the property? If so, then give the property to the state where the people are using the tax money.

And there's more than just taxes to fund schools...you also have roads, sewer, zoning issues, etc. etc. etc....

Part of why the US isn't a true democracy is because the majority typically overules the minority. So, by correcting state lines, some 50 people out of a combined population of a couple million are affected....an extremely small minority that probably won't notice much of a difference anyways.

You mean?

[aengblom]

I can't believe these "surveyors" are that bad. I mean it's not as if the states aren't all different colors! I live in central PA so it's all green. New Jersey, as we all know, is orange! Perhaps we should get some non-color blind folks out there to define the borders!

Hint: Black line=new state!