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Working Abroad?
"I've also noticed that to work in Asia, Hong Kong, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan etc you generally won't get a position from remote, you need to either transfer from an existing company or just go there. I've spent some time researching expatriation to each of these country's in preperation, however going there is the real research. There are various specialist expatriate websites that are quite interesting along with a handful of expatriate books to various country's around the world.
So in a roundabout way, I've decided to become a career traveller, start out in Europe (one of Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Spain) which has a higher chance of success of getting or even continuing my IT career and then then at a later date try the big leap of working in Asia.
I'd be interested in other people's thoughts and ideas, those who plan this, those who have done this. The tight IT market has become quite ugly, even for those qualified, do you give up pursuing a dream or stride on."
As an American citizen who lived and worked in Europe (Luxembourg) for a year, let me tell you - be *really* careful.
While I love Luxembourg and the Luxembourgish, the company I worked for were complete bastards. Their business plan seemed to be something along these lines:
1. Hire people from outside the European Union.
2. Make them work, screw them over, don't pay them on time, and then cancel their residency visas if they complain.
3. Since they aren't citizens, they have to leave pretty rapidly after the visa cancellation, making it more trouble than it's worth to sue you.
4. Profit!
Seriously, this was about how it went. When I started working at this company, they had around 45 employees. They have around six employees and five managers now. (heh) People quit because of the mistreatment, and because most of us still haven't been paid.
Okay, so, no, not all companies are like this. I'm planning on moving back to Europe just as soon as I can. Just heed my warning: You aren't a citizen, and they know that. This can make things tricky.
...but it's being eaten...by some...Linux or something...
I'm an American bound for the land of Oz because of the depression that is the job market in the US (and more specifically Northern California). I've been out of work since March and only just recently picked up a contract position thanks to a buddy of mine. Thanks to all of this my fiancée (who is an Aussi) and I are taking the opportunity to live, work and travel around Australia for at least a year. Due to the job market here, we're not waiting around until either of us get positions. But we've got the advantage of her not needing a visa to work (as it's her home country) and I'm able to enter on a spousal visa. So that is my experience on the matter... one thing you'll want to remember is the work visa application process, as it's rarely free and would be an added cost if you decide to go to a country and then find work (then again its different for Euros, isn't it?)! Good luck! Travel when you're young!
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
--
PS: Yes, it can be "Funny" and "Flamebait" at the same time. Though this may be neither.
Nope, no sig
i could barely fit the front page article in my browser window.. :)
I'm going to get modded down -1 Troll, Flamebait, Offtopic, Racist...
BUT
Half the people I call for tech support @ IBM, Dell, ______ Software, they all can barely speak fluent English. IF they can, they have such a horrible accent it doesn't matter anway.
What are these people doing phone support for? Router configuration is the same in French/English/Klingong, but phone support?
Back on topic, I don't think the language barrier will be THAT big of a deal. At least it isn't over here.
So you pick countries where they speak French, German, Swiss German, [tons] Asia, Dutch, et al. That's quite a lot of languages. Did you consider that perhaps the reason is that you cannot communicate? Lingua Franca doesn't get jobs. It gets dirty looks.
As for French, forget it. Unless you have a certificate from Alliance Francaise, forget it. That's the golden standard in Francophone countries. Get working. It'll take you about a year to get that -- if you pass their tests. It's not easy, the teachers are not nice.
Actually, if you have some cash, I recommend the Institute International de Rambouillet. They're pretty affordable, and the teachers are decent.
I say you should come to Canada!
:-)
:-)
I think it's time we turned around what we here call the "brain drain"!
I'm not entirely joking either. We may not sound exotic, but Canada is a great place to live! There is a great standard of living (health benefits, etc). We have some fantastic cities too! Out here on the West coast in Alberta, it's a mountain biking mecca in the summer, and Calgary, for example, is only 1 hour from many major ski resorts in the winter. And if you are afraid of the cold, not only are Vancouver and Victoria wonderful coastal cities, they rarely get snow. And thanks to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), I'm assuming it would be as easy for Americans to work in Canada as it was for me to work in America - with a letter of employment in certain fields you get a 1 year TN visa at the airport on the way out (doesn't get much easier than that).
Yeah, and like, we are nice too eh!
Why dont you try working for one of the many research groups at universities around the place. If you have some experience in research stuff then groups are quite keen to take on a few temporary people to share their knowledge. When I went on a confrence to France a few weeks ago I was asking around and I was told that several groups would be intrested in me going and working with them for a few months.
That sort of experience will allow you to show your emplyer that you are not going to run away because of the culture etc.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
If you're after the cultural experience, you might have to work a lousy job, and not work in the tech industry. The tech recession is pretty much global.
If you think that the financial situation is better elsewhere, it isn't.
Just a heads up, MOST Tier 1 support for Dell and Compaq has gone to India these days. Its actually a "premium" job over their to do tech support. I heard an article on NPR a couple of weeks ago about this (can't find the link). So if the people you are talking to have a funky accent, they pbly live overseas (god bless IP telephony)
Rule of Life Number 2: Remember, it can all go to hell at any minute. --Jimmy Buffet
It's great that you're skilled and personable enough to be considered second for a job. However, being second-choice doesn't put money in the bank.
Taking a risk such as moving abroad, while adventurous and assertive, might be quite a sting considering today's economy. While you're free to choose your own path, I'd suggest you wait until things settle down or you confirm a job offer that you can live off of.
All of us here on Slashdot are geeks---we can barely talk to Broads, let alone work them!
Oh, you meant overseas...
Karma: Marginal (mostly due to the border around the website)
I had a horrible experience with dealing with Network Solutions for getting some registration stuff fixed about two years ago. I didn't register the place domain to begin with, but the company I was with was trying to get me to fix it, and it was terrrible. I think they were from india as well. They had the accent, as well as had huge problems with verifying my passwords. P-A-S-S-W-O-R-D. You said BassBoard right...?
Tibbon
tibbon.com
are you stupid ?
have you looked at monster.ca's job forums ? Canada has a nearly 65% unemployment rate for IT...the highest in north america.
moving here ? youve got to be kidding.
Have you thought about trying to work for a large international company, such as IBM or Sun or ... MS(/me ducks). I would think it might be possible to get a job at such a company in your native country and then proceed to transfer to a new geographic location within the company.
Let your company send you abroad (not a broad).
I work for a large multi-national company that has offices all over the world. I met a guy from our Singapore office who said that they were looking for transfers. So I applied and worked there for over a year. We had a great time, and our standard of living was much better than "washing dishes to pay for the trip".
If you want to go to Europe, work for a European company in your home country. If you want to go to Asia, work for an Asian company. Then build those contacts!
// Alan Porter
Have you been taking English lessons from Billy Connoly? Or maybe vice-versa? ;-)
had seriously under-estimated the cultural differences Then what are you looking for
looking at permanent work abroad for the stability and long term career path This is inconsistent with your desire to be a "world traveller."
speak basic French Took it in High School, eh?
start learning a language when I reach my destination So, what expertise do you REALLY have?
What you have failed to mention is why.
This is really important when you go to work as an expat. The term in HK was "FILTH." Failed In London, Try Hong Kong. Most of the people that end up as long-term expats are middle-aged and have personal/marital problems. While they were "failures" in London, they excelled abroad (in part) because of these problems.
In HK, an expat would make 3-4x what a local Chinese person with the same training would earn. An employer would pay the person that with certain expectations:
Better managerial skills. Some cultures don't believe in deadlines, or admitting to problems... western businesses have a much easier time relating to westerners in this regard.
Better client-relationship skills. If the "money" is from other western businesses, the expat social network is useful.
No personal life, strong work ethic. You might be paid more, but you will be working a hell of a lot more hours... or expected to be considerably more productive.
Expert. Someone who has training that far exceeds local availability, and clients that are willing to pay more for it. Look at the Oil Industry as a prime example here.
on the other hand, if you are wanting to see different cultures, you are looking at it the wrong way. If you have qualifications that can earn you some money on the side, try doing something else as your mainstay, and save the computer stuff for building relationships and managing long-term plans.
I recommend scuba diving personally...
Let me just balance the picture here by pointing out that I am an H1B visa holder. (I.e. I am allowed to work in the USA for a limited time.)
American companies have pulled the exact same stunts with me.
You have your whole life to make money.
As long as you can earn enough to put a roof over your head and food on the table, go out and get that job. I mean, get the best deal you can, but don't sit around at home doing nothing (or doing something boring) because your year in Hong Kong isn't making you a millionaire.
Chances are that your time working overseas will teach you more about yourself, your world, and (perhaps surprisingly) where you come from) than anything else you'll ever do.
I've worked all over the world and there's nothing like the challenge and thrill of integrating yourself into an alien culture. You're never so alive as when everything around you is different, when everything you see demands your analysis and comprehension. It's amazing fulfilling, and anyone who denies it to themselves is crippling their future just as soon as if they'd chopped off their own leg.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
Any idea how many people from other countries try to come to USA for the work here? If theres a slump here there never was a boom there.
In short, land a contract from home ground, or get employed in a multinational and then transfer.
On a side note China, Taiwan, India and Korea are fresh markets that are slightly growing compared to most others now that are shrinking. They might have a use for you.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
In other words, if you know how to search for things, read and comprehend, you can often make better decisions than a local who knows exactly what's going on around them.
Of course you need to learn how to gently relay that information to your colleagues who aren't keen on speaking/reading english but if you simplify it enough for them it usually works fine.
As a caveat, I did come over with my US company, but many of my friends just moved here and got a job.
I used to be in the military. The army actually. For like 10 years, and recently seperated. I know from firsthand experience that due to the military downsizing of the previous decade, a lot of military functions are now being performed by government contracters. Opportunities abound overseas, and has a contracter I believe you get some benefits (ID card, etc.). In Europe probabally the best bet would be working in Germany. Flexibility is the key, however, especially for a sysadmin. Most (95+%)military computer systems I have seen/used are Windows based, however. As long as your not terribly picky you should be able to get a job fairly easily. Some suggested references:h rma.hqusareur.army.mil (govt svc positions in europe)
www.halliburton.com (brown&root)
www.itt.com
www.dyncorp.com
www.c
a little research should yeild more
%
From the list you posted there I would highly recommend Denmark as a) The country is officially bilingual (Danish & English) and b) there is a pretty strong market for IT folk there.
Having said that, the Netherlands are also extremely English friendly. I don't know so much about Switzerland and afaik Spain's IT industry is pretty backward compared to the other countries.
Myself I took the plunge 4 years ago and moved to Sweden to be with my gf. It was the best thing I have ever done in my life, but if I could go back and do it again I would have to say that the one thing I would change is that I would have tried to set up a job before I moved. Instead I spent 4 months out of work, concentrating on learning the language enough to get an entry level job. I went from a UK salary of 45k to a Swedish salary of around a third of that!
Getting back to a decent salary level has taken me quite a while. However, if I had lined up a job with an English speaking company (many multinationals use English as their corporate language), I would have been able to keep my salary level high. The cost would have been that it would have undoubtedly taken me longer to integrate, learn the language and so on.
If you're looking to experience the country and are less worried about learning the language at each place, stick to multinationals, arrange your jobs in advance and you should be ok. If you are looking for adventure and something that pretty much forces you to pick up some of the local language, then jump right in and move first. But be prepared to work with whatever you can find in order to pay the bills and get started!
Good luck! Sounds like you're gonna have a fun time ahead of you.
A little planning goes a long way...
You want to work overseas, but your not willing to show that you want to. No wonder nobody wants to hire you. Show some effort.
Your second language is the hardest to learn, and you don't even know it. Start brushing up on it. Ideally you would get others to help (SO, kids, roommates). You should have entire days where you don't speak a word of english, and yet you have normal conversations.
Now learn some hard ones. French is a fine language (the people that speak it is a different matter), but it is too close to english. Learn something different. Russian, Hebrew, and Korean. Note I said and there, learn them all. I picked those there (there are several others with similear properties), because they are both very unlike english, and unlike each other to a large extent. They also have a different alphabit. Whereever your dream job takes you, you will have expirence with learning similear languages, so you can pick it up faster.
I'm told that after about 10 langauges you can pick up new ones in a matter of a few days. You will impress the interviewer with your fast learning if you don't speak the language when the interview is scheduled, but you do the interview in his native language.
One possibility to explore is that of working for the US Guvmint as a Civil Servant. There are numerous jobs available worldwide at any given time, usually requiring a pretty wide spread of IT skills. Given that you will live in the local community (in most cases), get "orientated" to the culture through welcome-aboard programs, and are with a group of (mostly) like-minded individuals, the culture shock is minimal. Although the wages aren't market-competitive, your living expenses will be covered, as will be your moving expenses. At the same time, you can (and probably will) start to explore your options for local employment when you're ready to take the plunge. A good starting place is USAJOBS The positions associated with the Navy are probably the most challenging... :-)
Barcelona is a nice place to live.
In winter we have the Pirynees and Andorra, 1 hour by car and you're skiing in pretty good mountains.
In the summer I go to the beach, in the city there is a decent one, and there are a lot of nice
villages around with nice seaside.
In the city there is a lot of things to do, restaurants are excellent. Most of the movie theaters show the pictures in spanish, but there are some that don't translate the movies. Then you can go to dance till 4am or more if you want. There are many streets prepared for skating and biking. I know some people who go to work by bike.
About the language it's important to know spanish, though I've worked with consultants who came for short projects who only spoke english and it was ok. It depends of the kind of work you do. Most of the people in the city only speak spanish, but some words in english.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-954667.html The article claims there are numerous IT jobs going begging in Europe.
...any country that can give us Pamela Anderson Lee and Jim Carrey can't be all bad...