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Working Abroad?
"I've also noticed that to work in Asia, Hong Kong, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan etc you generally won't get a position from remote, you need to either transfer from an existing company or just go there. I've spent some time researching expatriation to each of these country's in preperation, however going there is the real research. There are various specialist expatriate websites that are quite interesting along with a handful of expatriate books to various country's around the world.
So in a roundabout way, I've decided to become a career traveller, start out in Europe (one of Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Spain) which has a higher chance of success of getting or even continuing my IT career and then then at a later date try the big leap of working in Asia.
I'd be interested in other people's thoughts and ideas, those who plan this, those who have done this. The tight IT market has become quite ugly, even for those qualified, do you give up pursuing a dream or stride on."
As an American citizen who lived and worked in Europe (Luxembourg) for a year, let me tell you - be *really* careful.
While I love Luxembourg and the Luxembourgish, the company I worked for were complete bastards. Their business plan seemed to be something along these lines:
1. Hire people from outside the European Union.
2. Make them work, screw them over, don't pay them on time, and then cancel their residency visas if they complain.
3. Since they aren't citizens, they have to leave pretty rapidly after the visa cancellation, making it more trouble than it's worth to sue you.
4. Profit!
Seriously, this was about how it went. When I started working at this company, they had around 45 employees. They have around six employees and five managers now. (heh) People quit because of the mistreatment, and because most of us still haven't been paid.
Okay, so, no, not all companies are like this. I'm planning on moving back to Europe just as soon as I can. Just heed my warning: You aren't a citizen, and they know that. This can make things tricky.
...but it's being eaten...by some...Linux or something...
--
PS: Yes, it can be "Funny" and "Flamebait" at the same time. Though this may be neither.
Nope, no sig
I'm going to get modded down -1 Troll, Flamebait, Offtopic, Racist...
BUT
Half the people I call for tech support @ IBM, Dell, ______ Software, they all can barely speak fluent English. IF they can, they have such a horrible accent it doesn't matter anway.
What are these people doing phone support for? Router configuration is the same in French/English/Klingong, but phone support?
Back on topic, I don't think the language barrier will be THAT big of a deal. At least it isn't over here.
So you pick countries where they speak French, German, Swiss German, [tons] Asia, Dutch, et al. That's quite a lot of languages. Did you consider that perhaps the reason is that you cannot communicate? Lingua Franca doesn't get jobs. It gets dirty looks.
As for French, forget it. Unless you have a certificate from Alliance Francaise, forget it. That's the golden standard in Francophone countries. Get working. It'll take you about a year to get that -- if you pass their tests. It's not easy, the teachers are not nice.
Actually, if you have some cash, I recommend the Institute International de Rambouillet. They're pretty affordable, and the teachers are decent.
I say you should come to Canada!
:-)
:-)
I think it's time we turned around what we here call the "brain drain"!
I'm not entirely joking either. We may not sound exotic, but Canada is a great place to live! There is a great standard of living (health benefits, etc). We have some fantastic cities too! Out here on the West coast in Alberta, it's a mountain biking mecca in the summer, and Calgary, for example, is only 1 hour from many major ski resorts in the winter. And if you are afraid of the cold, not only are Vancouver and Victoria wonderful coastal cities, they rarely get snow. And thanks to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), I'm assuming it would be as easy for Americans to work in Canada as it was for me to work in America - with a letter of employment in certain fields you get a 1 year TN visa at the airport on the way out (doesn't get much easier than that).
Yeah, and like, we are nice too eh!
Why dont you try working for one of the many research groups at universities around the place. If you have some experience in research stuff then groups are quite keen to take on a few temporary people to share their knowledge. When I went on a confrence to France a few weeks ago I was asking around and I was told that several groups would be intrested in me going and working with them for a few months.
That sort of experience will allow you to show your emplyer that you are not going to run away because of the culture etc.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
If you're after the cultural experience, you might have to work a lousy job, and not work in the tech industry. The tech recession is pretty much global.
If you think that the financial situation is better elsewhere, it isn't.
Just a heads up, MOST Tier 1 support for Dell and Compaq has gone to India these days. Its actually a "premium" job over their to do tech support. I heard an article on NPR a couple of weeks ago about this (can't find the link). So if the people you are talking to have a funky accent, they pbly live overseas (god bless IP telephony)
Rule of Life Number 2: Remember, it can all go to hell at any minute. --Jimmy Buffet
I had a horrible experience with dealing with Network Solutions for getting some registration stuff fixed about two years ago. I didn't register the place domain to begin with, but the company I was with was trying to get me to fix it, and it was terrrible. I think they were from india as well. They had the accent, as well as had huge problems with verifying my passwords. P-A-S-S-W-O-R-D. You said BassBoard right...?
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Let your company send you abroad (not a broad).
I work for a large multi-national company that has offices all over the world. I met a guy from our Singapore office who said that they were looking for transfers. So I applied and worked there for over a year. We had a great time, and our standard of living was much better than "washing dishes to pay for the trip".
If you want to go to Europe, work for a European company in your home country. If you want to go to Asia, work for an Asian company. Then build those contacts!
// Alan Porter
had seriously under-estimated the cultural differences Then what are you looking for
looking at permanent work abroad for the stability and long term career path This is inconsistent with your desire to be a "world traveller."
speak basic French Took it in High School, eh?
start learning a language when I reach my destination So, what expertise do you REALLY have?
What you have failed to mention is why.
This is really important when you go to work as an expat. The term in HK was "FILTH." Failed In London, Try Hong Kong. Most of the people that end up as long-term expats are middle-aged and have personal/marital problems. While they were "failures" in London, they excelled abroad (in part) because of these problems.
In HK, an expat would make 3-4x what a local Chinese person with the same training would earn. An employer would pay the person that with certain expectations:
Better managerial skills. Some cultures don't believe in deadlines, or admitting to problems... western businesses have a much easier time relating to westerners in this regard.
Better client-relationship skills. If the "money" is from other western businesses, the expat social network is useful.
No personal life, strong work ethic. You might be paid more, but you will be working a hell of a lot more hours... or expected to be considerably more productive.
Expert. Someone who has training that far exceeds local availability, and clients that are willing to pay more for it. Look at the Oil Industry as a prime example here.
on the other hand, if you are wanting to see different cultures, you are looking at it the wrong way. If you have qualifications that can earn you some money on the side, try doing something else as your mainstay, and save the computer stuff for building relationships and managing long-term plans.
I recommend scuba diving personally...
You have your whole life to make money.
As long as you can earn enough to put a roof over your head and food on the table, go out and get that job. I mean, get the best deal you can, but don't sit around at home doing nothing (or doing something boring) because your year in Hong Kong isn't making you a millionaire.
Chances are that your time working overseas will teach you more about yourself, your world, and (perhaps surprisingly) where you come from) than anything else you'll ever do.
I've worked all over the world and there's nothing like the challenge and thrill of integrating yourself into an alien culture. You're never so alive as when everything around you is different, when everything you see demands your analysis and comprehension. It's amazing fulfilling, and anyone who denies it to themselves is crippling their future just as soon as if they'd chopped off their own leg.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
From the list you posted there I would highly recommend Denmark as a) The country is officially bilingual (Danish & English) and b) there is a pretty strong market for IT folk there.
Having said that, the Netherlands are also extremely English friendly. I don't know so much about Switzerland and afaik Spain's IT industry is pretty backward compared to the other countries.
Myself I took the plunge 4 years ago and moved to Sweden to be with my gf. It was the best thing I have ever done in my life, but if I could go back and do it again I would have to say that the one thing I would change is that I would have tried to set up a job before I moved. Instead I spent 4 months out of work, concentrating on learning the language enough to get an entry level job. I went from a UK salary of 45k to a Swedish salary of around a third of that!
Getting back to a decent salary level has taken me quite a while. However, if I had lined up a job with an English speaking company (many multinationals use English as their corporate language), I would have been able to keep my salary level high. The cost would have been that it would have undoubtedly taken me longer to integrate, learn the language and so on.
If you're looking to experience the country and are less worried about learning the language at each place, stick to multinationals, arrange your jobs in advance and you should be ok. If you are looking for adventure and something that pretty much forces you to pick up some of the local language, then jump right in and move first. But be prepared to work with whatever you can find in order to pay the bills and get started!
Good luck! Sounds like you're gonna have a fun time ahead of you.
A little planning goes a long way...
You want to work overseas, but your not willing to show that you want to. No wonder nobody wants to hire you. Show some effort.
Your second language is the hardest to learn, and you don't even know it. Start brushing up on it. Ideally you would get others to help (SO, kids, roommates). You should have entire days where you don't speak a word of english, and yet you have normal conversations.
Now learn some hard ones. French is a fine language (the people that speak it is a different matter), but it is too close to english. Learn something different. Russian, Hebrew, and Korean. Note I said and there, learn them all. I picked those there (there are several others with similear properties), because they are both very unlike english, and unlike each other to a large extent. They also have a different alphabit. Whereever your dream job takes you, you will have expirence with learning similear languages, so you can pick it up faster.
I'm told that after about 10 langauges you can pick up new ones in a matter of a few days. You will impress the interviewer with your fast learning if you don't speak the language when the interview is scheduled, but you do the interview in his native language.