Working Abroad?

dazdaz asks: "I have spent the last 12 months applying for IT positions abroad (Europe and Asia) from the UK and out of it, have had 1 offer and 3 free trips! The offer I had unfortunately was not enough to live on and only came through because a friend had recommended me. For the other 3 positions, I had seriously under-estimated the cultural differences along with the tight competition I ended up as choice number 2 several times. Just briefly: my background is web/internet/unix/sysadmin with contract experience. I am looking at permanent work abroad for the stability and long term career path. I speak basic French, and realise that not 'speaking da lingo' does cut down my chances and will start learning a language when I reach my destination. My question is, do I continue to apply from remote, both directly to companies and through Agency's or should I take the big gamble and goto a country. This is a last resort due to the global economic situation and one that scares me in that it may not pay off and with limited financial resources the risk factor is higher."

"I've also noticed that to work in Asia, Hong Kong, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan etc you generally won't get a position from remote, you need to either transfer from an existing company or just go there. I've spent some time researching expatriation to each of these country's in preperation, however going there is the real research. There are various specialist expatriate websites that are quite interesting along with a handful of expatriate books to various country's around the world.

So in a roundabout way, I've decided to become a career traveller, start out in Europe (one of Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Spain) which has a higher chance of success of getting or even continuing my IT career and then then at a later date try the big leap of working in Asia.

I'd be interested in other people's thoughts and ideas, those who plan this, those who have done this. The tight IT market has become quite ugly, even for those qualified, do you give up pursuing a dream or stride on."

Comments

My advice: Be *really* careful

[Dimwit]

As an American citizen who lived and worked in Europe (Luxembourg) for a year, let me tell you - be *really* careful.

While I love Luxembourg and the Luxembourgish, the company I worked for were complete bastards. Their business plan seemed to be something along these lines:

1. Hire people from outside the European Union.
2. Make them work, screw them over, don't pay them on time, and then cancel their residency visas if they complain.
3. Since they aren't citizens, they have to leave pretty rapidly after the visa cancellation, making it more trouble than it's worth to sue you.
4. Profit!

Seriously, this was about how it went. When I started working at this company, they had around 45 employees. They have around six employees and five managers now. (heh) People quit because of the mistreatment, and because most of us still haven't been paid.

Okay, so, no, not all companies are like this. I'm planning on moving back to Europe just as soon as I can. Just heed my warning: You aren't a citizen, and they know that. This can make things tricky.

That's it, mail order bride

[drew_kime]

But we've got the advantage of her not needing a visa to work (as it's her home country) and I'm able to enter on a spousal visa.

Get a bride catalog from your target Asian nation. Marry her. Board a plane for your "honeymoon" which happens to be in her home country. Find an apartment and start looking for work.

--
PS: Yes, it can be "Funny" and "Flamebait" at the same time. Though this may be neither.

Do you know the language

[Profane Motherfucker]

So you pick countries where they speak French, German, Swiss German, [tons] Asia, Dutch, et al. That's quite a lot of languages. Did you consider that perhaps the reason is that you cannot communicate? Lingua Franca doesn't get jobs. It gets dirty looks.

As for French, forget it. Unless you have a certificate from Alliance Francaise, forget it. That's the golden standard in Francophone countries. Get working. It'll take you about a year to get that -- if you pass their tests. It's not easy, the teachers are not nice.

Actually, if you have some cash, I recommend the Institute International de Rambouillet. They're pretty affordable, and the teachers are decent.

Canada!

[HRbnjR]

I say you should come to Canada!

I think it's time we turned around what we here call the "brain drain"! :-)

I'm not entirely joking either. We may not sound exotic, but Canada is a great place to live! There is a great standard of living (health benefits, etc). We have some fantastic cities too! Out here on the West coast in Alberta, it's a mountain biking mecca in the summer, and Calgary, for example, is only 1 hour from many major ski resorts in the winter. And if you are afraid of the cold, not only are Vancouver and Victoria wonderful coastal cities, they rarely get snow. And thanks to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), I'm assuming it would be as easy for Americans to work in Canada as it was for me to work in America - with a letter of employment in certain fields you get a 1 year TN visa at the airport on the way out (doesn't get much easier than that).

Yeah, and like, we are nice too eh! :-)

Re:Canada!

[PD]

Something he didn't mention: Canada has had more recent waves of immigration than the United States. That means that their large cities are full of people from all over the world. One of the things that makes a city good to live in is a diverse group of people to live with and mingle with. That diversity makes things very interesting. One might say that the diversity of cities that have had large influxes of people from other countries is what separates a place like Montreal from, say, Enid Oklahoma.

They Are Pbly in India

[Llama Keeper]

Just a heads up, MOST Tier 1 support for Dell and Compaq has gone to India these days. Its actually a "premium" job over their to do tech support. I heard an article on NPR a couple of weeks ago about this (can't find the link). So if the people you are talking to have a funky accent, they pbly live overseas (god bless IP telephony)

Re:They Are Pbly in India

[larien]

Naw, probably more likely they've been outsourced to Glasgow; the chances of finding anyone who can speak English there are pretty remote!

I now patiently await a mix of moderation; I'm guessing +2 funny, -1 offtopic and -1 flamebait. *waits*

Re:They Are Pbly in India

[sql*kitten]

Just a heads up, MOST Tier 1 support for Dell and Compaq has gone to India these days. Its actually a "premium" job over their to do tech support. I heard an article on NPR a couple of weeks ago about this (can't find the link). So if the people you are talking to have a funky accent, they pbly live overseas (god bless IP telephony)

Actually, Indians speak superb English. Indian call centers take it very seriously, and coach their workers to learn accents that are almost identical to the Home Counties. The reason is simply that with what most of the world recognises as a "proper" English accent, they can communicate easily with most of the world which translates directly into happier customers and winning more business for their call center. Some go even further, they pay their staff to read Western newspapers and keep up to date on current affairs and soap operas so they can make smalltalk with customers who want to chat. If you call an Indian call center, you are likely to get a graduate who is well-paid in the local currency and smart enough and trusted enough to actually solve your problem then and there. If you call a British call center, you will probably get a temp on an hourly wage with an impenetrable Northern or Welsh accent who has to get a supervisor to do the most trivial tasks. Having dealt with both, all I can say is the British and American call centers seriously need to get their act together because at the moment they are lagging India in both cost and quality.

Re:They Are Pbly in India

[RhetoricalQuestion]

Actually, a funky accent is unlikely if the call center is in India.

Depending on the language-medium of the schools they went to, (English, Hindi, Marathi, Bengali, etc.) many Indians speak English with a British accent. These are more desireable candidates for call center jobs.

My cousin in India was offered one of these jobs after completing her BComm. Before you start, you are given intensive training on how to speak with an American accent. They even give you an American persona -- like, your name is Susan, you live just outside of Chicago, you went to Ohio State, etc. Those who are unable to learn to speak with an American accent are typically placed in call centers serving the UK.

It's a premium job over there because it's steady work, good pay, they transport you from your home to the call center and back, and all you need to qualify is the ability to speak, read and write English. (Having technical skills will get you a much hire pay, but is not necessary.)

So if someone has a funky accent, chances are that they aren't located in India.

Network Solutions..?

[TibbonZero]

I had a horrible experience with dealing with Network Solutions for getting some registration stuff fixed about two years ago. I didn't register the place domain to begin with, but the company I was with was trying to get me to fix it, and it was terrrible. I think they were from india as well. They had the accent, as well as had huge problems with verifying my passwords. P-A-S-S-W-O-R-D. You said BassBoard right...?

Going about it the wrong way?

[aaarrrgggh]

First some issues with what you have indicated:

had seriously under-estimated the cultural differences Then what are you looking for

looking at permanent work abroad for the stability and long term career path This is inconsistent with your desire to be a "world traveller."

speak basic French Took it in High School, eh?

start learning a language when I reach my destination So, what expertise do you REALLY have?

What you have failed to mention is why.

This is really important when you go to work as an expat. The term in HK was "FILTH." Failed In London, Try Hong Kong. Most of the people that end up as long-term expats are middle-aged and have personal/marital problems. While they were "failures" in London, they excelled abroad (in part) because of these problems.

In HK, an expat would make 3-4x what a local Chinese person with the same training would earn. An employer would pay the person that with certain expectations:

Better managerial skills. Some cultures don't believe in deadlines, or admitting to problems... western businesses have a much easier time relating to westerners in this regard.

Better client-relationship skills. If the "money" is from other western businesses, the expat social network is useful.

No personal life, strong work ethic. You might be paid more, but you will be working a hell of a lot more hours... or expected to be considerably more productive.

Expert. Someone who has training that far exceeds local availability, and clients that are willing to pay more for it. Look at the Oil Industry as a prime example here.

on the other hand, if you are wanting to see different cultures, you are looking at it the wrong way. If you have qualifications that can earn you some money on the side, try doing something else as your mainstay, and save the computer stuff for building relationships and managing long-term plans.

I recommend scuba diving personally...

Denmark sounds like a good start...

[Ratface]

From the list you posted there I would highly recommend Denmark as a) The country is officially bilingual (Danish & English) and b) there is a pretty strong market for IT folk there.

Having said that, the Netherlands are also extremely English friendly. I don't know so much about Switzerland and afaik Spain's IT industry is pretty backward compared to the other countries.

Myself I took the plunge 4 years ago and moved to Sweden to be with my gf. It was the best thing I have ever done in my life, but if I could go back and do it again I would have to say that the one thing I would change is that I would have tried to set up a job before I moved. Instead I spent 4 months out of work, concentrating on learning the language enough to get an entry level job. I went from a UK salary of 45k to a Swedish salary of around a third of that!

Getting back to a decent salary level has taken me quite a while. However, if I had lined up a job with an English speaking company (many multinationals use English as their corporate language), I would have been able to keep my salary level high. The cost would have been that it would have undoubtedly taken me longer to integrate, learn the language and so on.

If you're looking to experience the country and are less worried about learning the language at each place, stick to multinationals, arrange your jobs in advance and you should be ok. If you are looking for adventure and something that pretty much forces you to pick up some of the local language, then jump right in and move first. But be prepared to work with whatever you can find in order to pay the bills and get started!

Good luck! Sounds like you're gonna have a fun time ahead of you.