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Michael Simms of LGP and TuxGames
jvmatthe writes "The scene for native Linux games has been sleeping for months now, given the demise of Loki. Now LinuxGames has posted a very interesting interview with Michael Simms, who leads both TuxGames and Linux Game Publishing (LGP), which details his views on where Linux gaming has been, where it stands now (including comments on WineX), and where it may be going in the short and long term."
We as a community of users are still not being good advocates. It's more than advocacy - it's basic manners and the ability to communicate.
If you flame or abuse somebody, you give them the excuse they might be looking for to ignore you.
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Somehow I think he meant that the ratio of linux gamers / linux computers would be similar to that of windows gamers / windows computers.
Bit of an optimistic guess I think, given how many people who run Linux also have windows machines / partitions for gaming.
Rather than splitting the *nix games development effort, back the only *nix that's getting any real support today and write for the Mac OSX. If the effort is split (and let's face it, it isn't - as of today it's all behind OSX - anyone seen WC3 for Linux ). Drop the dead donkey.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
is a killer app, a game which isn't available on another platform, which takes advantage of the special properties which open source and linux operating systems can offer... like really long uptimes... like keeping the game on in the background all the time in a minimal mode, so that it acts likes a server using p2p for playing (like doom3) when you're not playing it.
:-)
a massively multiplayer elite-a-like? a massively mutliplayer first person perspective action/RPG based in a bladerunner type city?
expandable using user programable add-on modules?
Oh, and release it under a license which doesn't allow for ports to non open-source operating systems
I've never really tried gaming on linux, but from what I've hear it's pretty difficult to get the games going. It can take hours sometimes to get systems set up to play the games correctly.
I wonder if anyone else has other experiances. A lot of people belive that most linux users who play computer gams have a windows partition for that.
But who knows.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
That would require spending thousands of dollars on proprietary hardware. It's kind of missing the point of Linux.
Besides, the mac world already has tons of people trying to bring games to it. They might be unsuccessful over all, but I doubt dropping support for the Linux world would help much.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
is a killer app, a game which isn't available on another platform, which takes advantage of the special properties which open source and linux operating systems can offer... like really long uptimes
When was the last time you ran windows? The uptimes are pretty good these days. Besides, if a game needed to stay running for months in order to enjoy it, you'd obviously have to write it to survive a system reboot... I don't want to buy an UPS to play a game.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"Oh, and release it under a license which doesn't allow for ports to non open-source operating systems :-)
1. Write brilliant game.
2. Exclude vast majority of potential buyers.
3. Profit!!
Bit of an optimistic guess I think, given how many people who run Linux also have windows machines / partitions for gaming.
/dev/dsp? Still, if it differs too much from Windows then games will not get ported. We need DirectX on Linux!!!
Linux's problem was that it was always a pain in the ass to get one of these games running. Does this version only work on Voodoo cards with Glide or does my Nvidia card work with it? Who knows? Who cares? People used to Windows games certainly don't. They click setup, the game installs, and uses DirectX and away they go. Linux needs DirectX or something similar to offer a standard interface to video and audio APIs. I suppose we have OpenGL but is there a standard audio interface?
That is not "insightful". It is totally false. Many Linux users *pay* for their distributions. Many *pay* for commercial software.
GPL advocates aren't any different than Windows users, when it comes to playing games. Most of them are willing to pay for commercial software, as long as it is of high quality. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that there is a whole lot more illegitimate gaming on the Windows side. I've known LOTS of Windows users that refuse to pay for any of their software.
For the record, I've paid for the following on my Linux box in the last few months:
Slackware 8.1
Lycoris
Mandrake
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Q3A
OpenSound.com sound drivers
Two Opera licenses
And I'm getting ready to buy a bunch of games from Tux Games. Neverwinter Nights is on my list. Perhaps if there was more software available, then Linux users would be buying more. The point is that there isn't as much right now, and most of what is available is GPL. We use, and advocate good GPL software because often, it is better than the commericial alternatives. But right now, the commercial games still have it. There aren't many GPL games that can match the amount of money and manpower that go into these big, commercial projects. Good, advanced GPL games are showing up, but not at the rate of commercial games.
Did it ever occur to you that some people love GNU/Linux, not because it is free, but because it is the best, most powerful x86 alternative to Windows? Maybe that doesn't make sense to you. How much have you paid for software lately?
There will be a market for Linux games. It just needs to be given a chance. Hardware drivers are very stable in Linux, and things like SDL make it really easy to write cross platform games. Linux's OpenGL implementation also seems faster than on Windows. It is growing as an OS, and getting more users. You don't really think that they all want to miss out on these games, do you?
There isn't much of one at the moment, granted, because most of the people who use linux are part of this hardened free-software crowd, but if Linux on the desktop becomes more widespread among your average computer user (fingers crossed), then there will be lots of people who would pay for quality games if they were produced for Linux.
There's a fairly strong argument that producing a decent library of games that run on Linux would help increase it's use on the desktop.
there's always SDL, openGL/AL. DirectX is nasty - why would anyone want to pollute Linux with it.
OpenGL is a completely open system for graphical rendering that is a much better supported (both morally and via standards) for Linux than any propriatory system would be. Most games created now that have 3D aspects in Windows are built to run on either DirectX or OpenGL, which means if the OpenGL side was ported, it wouldn't be too difficult to run. Why make a new standard like a DirectX clone on Linux when a perfectally good ones already exsists? (aka OpenGL).
:).
As for audio, I've noted on more recent distributions that support for audio has greatly improved. Several applications support several different options for recieving audio depending on what system you use, but it seems to becoming standardized fairly quickly. (I'd post links but I'm typing this telneted into a Linux box and using links..)
The problem I believe they were referring to with not having the right ratio of gamers prolly has something to do with Linux being more accepted in the Server market than the desktop market. I'm guessing a lot of companies that use Linux as a server probably don't also play games on them, as they are used in daily production and have more "important" tasks to do. And since the Linux desktop market is still relatively small, the market for games is going to be small. Also, a lot of linux users balk at buying software of any type for their box because of the attitude that software should be free(as in beer). Not saying that the attitude is good or bad, just that it makes selling games more difficult and the urge to port them less.
Saying that I've bought several games from Loki that have run fine on my Linux box. Nothing like going to a lan party with a bunch of Windows people and playing some games, with people wondering what kind of system I'm running
Food for thought.
Back in the day, this same thing played out over OS/2. I would say that Linux is more popular (and better than) OS/2, but it was a similiar situation in that a number of people thought if there could be/would be an OS/2 gaming market that OS/2 would succeed on the desktop.
Short story version is OS/2 didn't succeed on the desktop and OS/2 games sold in minimal numbers.
The interesting thing is this; OS/2 had Windows emulation. In fact, it had better Windows emulation then Linux does today [this is arguable in that Windows today is a different animal then it was then, but the point should stand]. And you know what, Windows emulation didn't help OS/2. It didn't help because anything that is a windows emulator is destined to break because you-know-who controls the windows API and the windows gaming API. If you start to be successful in writing something that doesn't actually require windows to run windows apps, then you-know-who will BREAK the API and you will forever be playing catch-up.
The short answer to getting your now broken app to run again is to what? That's right, reboot and run it under Win32, where it was written and where it runs correctly.
You know you're a geek if you've ever replied to a tagline.
I've found that Linux works wonderfully as a gaming platform. OpenGL apps are perfect, assuming you have drivers. nVidia, PowerVR, Matrox, and even some ATi cards have good 3D acceleration in Linux.
/dev/dsp to a Virtual Mixer device. All of this can normally be done for $25-$50, depending on the hardware and options that you want. It is worth it if you value excellent sound. Odds are than all AC-97 compliant sound chips will work with these 4-Front opensound.com drivers. I really advocate 4-Front as a provider for sound drivers. Their tech support is top notch, and they offer a great product, availble for most Unix platforms.
Sound options are pretty good too. The default kernel drivers work well, especially with cars that have built-in hardware mixers, like the SB Live cards, and some Yamaha products. The ALSA project also has good drivers for some cards. If you want extra functionality, it is worth it to pick up some commercial drivers from www.opensound.com. I use these with my Santa Cruz, and have control over the front, and rear DSPs. I can spatialize my audio with my KDE mixer. The drivers also have a DirectSound-style mixer, which mixes audio in real-time, and routes it to the DSP. This is truely real-time too, not like aRts, which claims to be real-time, but is still very latent. The OpenSound driver is a real, kernel level module, with real-time priority. It can also mix over 50 audio streams at one time, if you pay for the "Virtual Mixer Pro" upgrade. Plus, even the basic mixer will route hardcoded audio that tries to access
With proper video and sound drivers, things like SDL make it really easy to run games in Linux. MESA 3D provides for great OpenGL acceleration, and is very fast and pretty.
Now, if only game companies would get on those ports! I am ready to buy.
Most Linux users are there for stability, because they believe in it, etc. Thus the Linux gaming market will be mainly for people who are not hardcore gamers - just programmers, geeks, etc who are looking for the occasional game. I find it hard to believe the market will really rumble, since on the same hardware most people can install and run Windows games on their M$ OS of choice. There are exceptions of course, but I'd put my money on them being few and far between.
However, as implied in the interview, the key is predicting the future. Getting in on the ground, becoming a respected name in Linux gaming, could be a good strategy ready for one of several possible events:
I think the second point is most likely what Linux gaming could be all about. The console market is shifting towards a more "Home Entertainment System" with DVD and networking. Add a hard drive, get TiVO-esque services, run Linux for an OS and push Intel/Microsoft aside with a decent, lower cost alternative to the PC. Plenty people I know have VCRs, DVDs, HiFi etc without ever thinking they'll need a PC, but might like a games console that does all the above. The lines between devices are blurring more and more, and Linux could be the heart of some of the newer generation devices.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
You say:
"We're a Linux development company and we'd like to partner with you to port your product X to Linux.
"We're willing to pay you up-front for your developers' time to get us up to speed with your codebase and we'll take Y% of profit on sales of the Linux product.
"In other words, we're taking all the risk and you can't lose."
If they're not likely to make money from it so they can't afford to do it.
The biggest problem with sound in Linux is the lack of a standard, CPU powered mixing system. Windows has this in DirectX. A lot of driver developers are unwilling to do this in Linux.
/dev/dsp device. After this card was designed, DirectSound got big, and hardware manufacturers took a "winmodem" approach to things. Most modern soundcards do not actually mix audio on a chip level. It is usually done by the CPU, via DirectX. Some DSP chips accellerate this, just like videocards do to 3D graphics. It is a similar concept.
/dev/sndstat showed that there were multiple devices playing audio over *virtual* DSP devices without a hitch! The rear and center audio channels also worked with my 5.1 speaker system, and I could also spatialize audio to the front and rear. I bought the drivers, for a pretty low price, and I have never been happier. Over 50 programs can access the DSP at one time, even if they are hardcoded to /dev/dsp. The Drivers automatically route the audio to a virtual device, as DirectSound does. It all also real time too.
Many years ago, soundcard manufacturers started hardcoding mixers on a DSP level. The SB Live, for instance, can automatically mix streams of audio that access the
By rejecting the idea of a good, software mixer, I think that we alienate people who want to use Linux, and they can get frustrated by simple things, like sound device conflicts. Certain daemons like aRts and ESD can help this, but they are not given enough priority by the kernel to perform these operations, even if you set them to real-time. This has been my experience, at least. Plus, another problem arises... You actually have to write software to take advantage of aRtsd, or ESD. You can't just make it play standard audio to the DSP device, or else you have conflicts.
I was kinda torn with something... I was sick of aRtsd's latency problems. I was sick of not being able to take full advantage of my Santa Cruz, which was pretty powerful in Windows. It was like having a Winmodem. I checked out the drivers from www.opensound.com. I was happy to find that they offered a demo version of the drivers, that was fully functional. Installation was a snap. Just run a binary, and let it do the rest. The most amazing thing was its superior sound mixing, and its mixer! I was actually playing 3 instances of different MP3s at one time, while my messaging client was playing sounds too. A look at
In the way of USB, I haven't had any major problems. Most joysticks work perfectly by means of the HID (Human Interface Device) module in the kernel. It works pretty much the same way as a Windows USB joystick does. The only issue is that on sime distributions, you have to do a little configuring of the joystick device... Set a symlink or two, and set some permissions. That makes things abit more difficult, if you want non-root users to be able to use it. Heck, right now, I am even using a real PSX pad on my Linux box.
That's funny, since most linux users I know have purchased at least one distro. Not to mention countless books, which, while they may not be software, help to disprove the misconception that geeks don't pay for things. And while we're at it, geeks that use linux are one of the best markets for games, since we all know geeks love video games. And for your information, it's not only the hardened oss crowd using linux. Some of us just like it because it works. So why don't you try to get your facts straight before you lump all linux users together as free-loaders.
do not read this line twice.
Yes, I used to be Michael Simms' PHB :o)
At least I read Slashdot, hell, I even let them put "reading slashdot" down on their timesheets! :o)
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We as a community of users are still not being good advocates. It's more than advocacy - it's basic manners and the ability to communicate.
While I agree with your comment, and the quote you cited, 100%, I think it should be pointed out that, by last count, there are between 10 and 30 million GNU/Linux users. Given the large population of the 'community' (which is analogous to the population of New York or Mexico City) it shouldn't be too surprising that there are boisterous idiots somewhere in the crowd, nor should a rational person associate the behavior of a few such idiots with the population at large.
Unfortunately, one of the weaknesses of the human psyche is to associate unusual (especially negative) behavior of a few members of a minority group, such as GNU/Linux users, with the entire group while at the same time ignoring the same type of behavior among just as many (proportionally) members of a majority group.
This means that Windows users who behave similarly (and there are plenty of those) will not be associated with Windows users, while GNU/Linux users who do so will affect the repuation of the whole group. It isn't rational, or accurate, but it is nevertheless real. Just ask any black person in America who has had to contend with stereotypes vis-a-vis crime or loitering, while the exact same behavior is ignored in the majority (white) population. They are victims of exactly the same flaw in the human psyche (though other factors, such as prejudice and racism, do exist to exacerbate the problem, so the comparison isn't perfect). Pick any other racial/ethnic mixture, anywhere else in the world, and the same phenomenon exists. The interesting thing is that the mind draws such patterns irrespective of racial or ethnic prejudices (a relative of mine worked on a study regarding this very topic, and the results remained the same when distinctly non-prejudicial conditions were applied, things distinguishable but having nothing to do with ethnicity or economic status. Very interesting stuff actually, but I digress).
In any event I find your comment to be 100% dead on, but in fairness we should keep in mind just how large the community has grown, and just how inevitable it is that a group that size will contain a number of jackasses. Most importantly it should be emphesized (and probably reemphesized everytime this comes up) just how non-representative such behavior really is.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
IMHO the reason Loki et al fail is strictly economics. The goal for Linux games manufacturers should be to get as many Windows users to buy the Linux equivilents as possible. The problem with the Loki games from what I was seeing in my local retailers was that they cost the same as the Windows versions. Why in the world would a Windows user endure the headaches (for them, not me) of installing Linux when it isn't making their gaming any cheaper from their perspective. I know that Loki was probably bound by license agreements and their own costs from making that possible but I think that was a good part of why the ports failed. Even when the Loki products became cheap (their $5-$10 now) they're still not flying off the shelves which indicates that they will need to be considerably cheaper for a *long* time before any significant coup in the gaming market will occur.
THE PROBLEM WITH COMMERCIAL GAME PORTS (WITH A FEW NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS):
The problem with Loki was that their games releases lagged the release of the same game under Windoze by six months or more. Whilst the Loki version of the game was about the same price as the original ON THE DAY IT WAS RELEASED, by the time the Linux version was out at $40, the Windoze version was available at $19.99 or less.
Anyone with a dual-boot machine (pretty much a necessity for SERIOUS gamers who love Linux) would either buy the Windoze game as soon as it came out and not wait for Loki to catch up - or they'd wait - and be disappointed to find that the Loki version was so expensive.
Linux is still too small of a market for the big games companies to want to drain their valuable developer resources either co-developing the Linux version or having their programmers help out a third party with co-developing it. That means that we are doomed to seeing that six month lag.
Quake is an exception - the Linux versions of that series were done more as a hobby by the developers than as a viable business. They lost money on it.
THE PROBLEM WITH FREEWARE GAMES:
(...And I speak from bitter experience. I wrote 'Tux The Penguin: A Quest for Herring' and TuxKart).
It takes a team of programmers at least a couple of years to write a game that comes even remotely close to the quality of a MODERN commercial game...and that assumes that you can find OpenSource Artists and Musicians (which you can't - trust me).
That's OK - I could live with that - anything worth doing is worth the commitment. But these games have a 'shelf life' of just a couple of months
and then there are no more downloads, your work is gradually forgotten. That's to be expected - most games are something you play for a few weeks and then you are looking for something different. Remember that only one in THIRTY commercial games ever sees a profit.
So you spend years of your life developing something - only to find that your rise to fame is extremely short-lived. That's not a very rewarding experience.
Also, the 'Bazaar' effect where lots of people come on board a working software project to make it better either doesn't happen - or is a waste of time because the game has fizzled in popularity before the effect can build up to a useful degree.
If you 'commit early' and release your game before it's fully polished then people play it once, decide that it's crap and never return to play it again.
It's just not like most other OpenSource development. If I had written another GIMP or an Apache or even some other small-but-useful application, my work would be used and appreciated by others for years to come. Other developers would improve upon it. I would feel that all the effort was worthwhile.
Games are a lot of fun to write though - that's what keeps me doing it.
DEPRESSING CONCLUSION.
I think there will be no significant numbers of good Linux games until there are perhaps ten times as many people using Linux as there are currently. At that point, there might be enough of a market for the mainstream games companies - or smaller startups - to make commercially viable Linux games.
Meanwhile, there are more than 50 versions of Tetris and over a dozen Bomberman clones - because those games can be written quickly and without the skills of a dozen great 3D artists.
www.sjbaker.org
OMG, I didn't know Lord Voldemort was responsible for Windows!
It does make sense, though..
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Sounds like what will happen with MONO. Since it's not a game, however (unless you consider that some people are trying to beat MS at their own game, perhaps) I don't think people see the correlation between OS/2 and MONO and .Net. There's a very good reason that MS hangs on to even "simple" things like file formats. Being able to break alternate implementations in order to maintain monopoly status (what the marketeers call "market share") at will is probably chief among them. It'll kill MONO just like it killed Linux gaming just like it killed OS/2 (although there were other factors involved as well). It might kill WineX, although they seem to be happy in the play catch-up role. They certainly fill a niche.
I tried really hard to give Linux gaming a shot. I bought every single Loki game made, and a couple Hyperion ones as well. I happily lived without a windows partition for about a year and a half. But the game, pun intended, is over. MS won when it was "shown" that Linux gaming is not a viable market. Game companies think that all Linux users want things for free, and won't pay (I was probably among a small minority of peopel that bought Linux and Windows copies fo Tribes2, for example). Quake3 had dismal Linux sales, but a lot of Linux binary downloads. People won't wait for a Linux port -- they'll buy the Windows version and dual boot if they have to.
It would have been nice, but a Windows partition is in the future for anyone interested in playing games.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Hello? Never heard of SDL? It's pretty widely used by lots of Linux games.
I don't know why you hate Wine, but the future is more like this:
1) Wine allows people to play games on linux NOW
2) People actually start switching to Linux and using it regularly because they don't have to reboot for games and such crap
3) Native games continue to be release occasionally, such as the ones by Id Software. People using Linux purchase these because they are more stable and have better performance than emulation.
4) Because linux actually has a user-base of gamers now, from emulation, companies find that porting is a viable business strategy.
5) People make games for linux. New games are native, old classic also work using emulation. Everyone is happy except Microsoft!
Using your own logic, this is how things will happen. The better performance of native games guarantees that while Wine garners Linux a bigger user base, those users continue buying and supporting any native linux games that are available.
I've heard from people who have tired playing games on linux, assuming what I read was true, then my point stands.
I don't need to have seen a nuclear bomb go off to know they cause a lot of damage.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.