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Professional Apache 2.0

Robert Nagle writes: "Apache's HTTP server has been by many measures the most popular web server on the web, and perhaps the primary application that drives people to Linux and open source. Three years ago, Wrox published the definitive book on running the Apache server by Peter Wainwright. Excellent though the book was, it badly needed updating. In May 2002, Wrox published another book, Professional Apache 2.0, which covers the new generation of Apache server, as well as older 1.3x versions that are still running production servers around the world." Robert's review continues, below. Professional Apache 2.0 author Peter Wainwright pages 873 publisher Wrox rating 5 Stars reviewer Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer ISBN 1861007221 summary Excellent, comprehensive Guide to the latest version of Apache.

Although Apache changed a great deal in its version 2.0, it is a credit to the Apache folk that the config files and command line options have basically remained the same for sys admins. For this reason, the book seems to include a lot of material (CGI security, building, core modules) from the original book. However, a closer look reveals many changes. Almost every chapter includes a discussion about how features differ in both versions of Apache. The book does a good job of giving an overview of Apache's architectural changes and how the use of multi-processing modules (MPM) allow the admin to choose an optimal implementation of apache. This edition, noticeably bigger than the previous one, contains many more examples of how one can extend apache functionality (configuring for binary distribution, setting up virtual interfaces, load sharing). Many sections have been expanded. The discussion of security and SSL is more detailed, yet more succinct; so is the section on content negotiation, (which is twice as long as the previous book), doing proxy server configurations, rsync and benchmarking performance. The discussion on hardening the server was great and up-to-date, although I wish the book spent more time discussing on patching and upgrading.

What is new to the book? We find a longer discussion of graphic administration tools for Windows and Unix, including webmin (which actually I wanted more of). We also have discussions of newer modules such as mod_ruby, mod_python, mod_dav as well as a brief description on how to install tomcat alongside apache. The discussion of mod_dav was especially helpful and interesting to me (and I was especially glad that the author acknowledged the Subversion DAV module, something which is bound to become more important). The php stuff hasn't changed much (although at the time the book was published, 2.0 compatibility with PHP was still an iffy proposition). The book's discussion of mod_perl isn't significantly different, although it does point out migration issues and some additional features.

Generally, the book is clearly written and contains enough examples to find any configuration you want. A few parts required rereading (especially the part about proxies and proxypasses), and occasionally I needed a better explanation of what the example code was supposed to do.

No book can be everything for everybody, and nobody can accuse the book of not having enough content (it is after all more than 700 pages!). I found myself wishing for other things. The book briefly discussed 2.0's support for ipv6, but I longed for a fuller explanation and a more detailed example (Fortunately, I had seen a good ipv6 tutorial on Linux Journal ). Also, I would have liked more information about other web application servers (like zope that Apache sometimes coexists with, content frameworks (such as cocoon) and other goodies produced by the Apache Foundation. The author might legitimately feel that such subjects lie outside the book's scope, but such topics are becoming more important.

In summary: for newbies who are looking for a guide to start with: this is the definitive book to read. It's definitive and a little imposing, but it is well written and logically arranged.

For people already familiar with Apache 1.3 but looking for more depth about ipv6, php, content frameworks or Tomcat, it might be better to read books on those specific subjects instead of this one. Indeed, Wrox will soon be coming out with a book specifically on Apache and Tomcat.

For experienced system administrators, the material in this book may not be terribly new, but they will still appreciate the variety of configuration examples for managing large numbers of virtual hosts and the convenience of having documentation of the 1.3/2.0 differences at their fingertips.

You can purchase Professional Apache 2.0 from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

88 comments

  1. Only one complaint... by Flabby+Boohoo · · Score: 2, Informative

    The font of the main text was difficult to read after a long day's VDU-gazing. More importantly, some explanations are not expressed clearly enough to allow the meaning to sink in without the occasional paragraph re-read, and some sections could benefit from diagrams to illustrate the points.

    1. Re:Only one complaint... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what is the status of MOD_PERL and loadable modules in general ?

    2. Re:Only one complaint... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmmm..... isn't that actually 3 complaints? :-)

    3. Re:Only one complaint... by bunratty · · Score: 3, Funny

      Uh, isn't that three complaints?

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    4. Re:Only one complaint... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I goofed up... as I was writing it, I thought of a couple more and forgot to change the subject.

  2. mod_perl? by Chris+Croome · · Score: 1

    Whats the situation with regard to mod_perl with Apache 2.0? Is it ready yet?

    --
    Check out MKDoc a mod_perl CMS
    1. Re:mod_perl? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Discussion should be applicable to mod_perl whenever it is ready.

    2. Re:mod_perl? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Discussion should answer the question asked.

      Thank you, drive though.

  3. Who is Peter Wainwright anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've never seen him on the Apache development list.

    1. Re:Who is Peter Wainwright anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You know, it's an amazing myth perpetuated by O'Reilly's publishing strategy that only people who create products are qualified to write about them.

      Someone who administers Apache servers for a living might actually be in a better position to tell admins what they need to know than the person who implemented some cool feature and wants everyone to know about it.

    2. Re:Who is Peter Wainwright anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sure you never noticed his earlier book?

  4. ultimate reference bookcase... by sp00nfed · · Score: 0
    Can anyone recommend other books on php/mysql/perl/apache/iis that would be good for someone starting out with web development?

    If you were going to create the "ultimate reference on web development" out of books you've read... what would you include?

    1. Re:ultimate reference bookcase... by nigord · · Score: 1

      1) MAN ;) LOL 2) Many O'Reilly's book... Great tools to the learn/test/crash/repeat approach.

    2. Re:ultimate reference bookcase... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got plenty of PHP books from Wrox. Neat.

    3. Re:ultimate reference bookcase... by hendridm · · Score: 2

      I thought JSP, Servlets and MySQL had some good JSP and MySQL content in it.

      If you're looking to learn PHP, you should check out the documentation on PHP.net.

      If you want to learn ASP, try Planet Source Code.

      Step one is to decide on the platform and language you want to learn first. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.

    4. Re:ultimate reference bookcase... by bLanark · · Score: 1

      If you want to write fast perl on apache, or write Apache modules in C, get "Writing Apache Modules with Perl and C" by Lincoln Stein, Doug MacEachern.

      However, wait for version 2 unless you can beg, borrow or steal it, 'cos despite the review above, I reckon quite a few things might change.

      Also check out perl.apache.org, especially the mod_perl guide.

      --
      Note to ACs: I won't mod you up, even if you are being funny or insightful. So take a chance! It's not real life!
  5. Apache Week review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  6. Better books... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Wrox published the definitive book on running the Apache server"

    Come on... I have never seen him on dev@httpd.apache.org or users@ mailing lists. There are plenty of better Apache books. For authoritative Apache 2.0 coverage you can get books from Apache group members themselves, such as Teach Yourself Apache 2.0 or Apache 2 Complete reference

    1. Re:Better books... by mwrm · · Score: 1

      Just because they are Apache devs, doesn't mean they are expert admins. An admin book should be written by admins and not programmers. Big names do not always make the best authors, especially if they've never stepped out of academia and into the real world.

    2. Re:Better books... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Okay, I tried to resist, but I've got to answer this ...

      I really, really hate the "academia vs. real world" dichotomy that a lot of techies try to set up. Yes, business programming problems are different from classroom programming problems. Yes, academics develop a lot of ideas about programming that seem brilliant in a theoretical context but prove pretty much impossible to implement in production shops. Yes, there are shitty CS profs out there who don't keep up on the latest developments in the field and fill their students' heads with ideas that are outdated, impractical, or just plain wrong.

      But. There is at least as much of a problem with "real-world" programmers and admins, many of whom are mostly self-taught and therefore have no idea where the gaps in their knowledge are, who really ought to pay more attention to academic computer science. A lot of the code I have to work with as a DBA and Web developer is, frankly, astonishingly bad. Yeah, it gets the job done, but the fact is that it would get it done a lot better if it were written by people who had some exposure to the theoretical underpinnings of CS like set theory and algorithm analysis -- and, just as importantly, to the people who develop those underpinnings.

      The vast majority of the whiz-bang technologies that make computers as useful as they are came out of university labs -- not corporate R&D shops that are all "D" and no "R," not teenage genius hackers in their basements, and sure as hell not people who think that academia and the real world are somehow two separate domains, never the twain shall meet.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:Better books... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think he was talking about BUILDING Apache, just using it effectively. You don't have to know the theoretical underpinnings of software to use it effectively.

      Admins are essentially glorified power users.

    4. Re:Better books... by arivanov · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To the moderator: do not jump to moderate as flamebait until you have read it till the end please. As a person who have worked both in Academia (in more than one country) and in Corp (once again in more than one country) I have to say that you are deeply mistaken.

      Excuse me for the engineering language but current academic CS is mostly full of shit. It is mostly a collection of people who excel in vendor and sponsor nasoanal relationships. Especially the latter.

      What you describe is not CS. It is good old MATH. And what makes most programmers write shitty code is lack of solid background in mathematics. The subjects you have mentioned like set theory are just a scratch on surface. Game theory, optimisation, numerical methods, to be continued ad naseum.

      I will also disagree with some of your conclusions on selftaught as synonimous with lacking. A selftaught programmer coming from a mathematical, physical or even chemical background is often a better programmer then the surrogate CS engineers printed in some countries which have cut down their math requirements for CS to almost nothing. And which do not have any of the subjects mentioned in their BSc programmes for most colleges.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    5. Re:Better books... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2

      Well, I do consider CS a branch of applied mathematics, actually. And so do most of the decent CS academics I know. I'm sorry if you've had experience with a bunch of bad ones. I certainly agree with you that more programmers need more math. (Having been a math major and a CS minor, I could scarcely argue otherwise.)

      I don't think self-teaching is a bad thing. But -- and this is an important but -- one thing most of the self-taught people in any field don't know is, well, what they don't know. They may no just as much or more than people with formal training, but almost invariably there are huge gaps in their knowledge and they simply don't know those gaps are there. If they come from a (decent) academic background, they'll know where the gaps are and how, if necessary, to go about filling them.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    6. Re:Better books... by mwrm · · Score: 1

      I'm not disputing that most of the best software comes out of university labs, but the point is that these university labs aren't using them to the extent that admins are. Admins use the software in environments that often aren't anticipated by the devs and as such are in a better position to tell us about their experiences. A good admin book should be about life in the trenches. The UNIX System Administration Handbook is a great example of this: the authors have been there and seen it all.

      I just objected to the "he's not a big name author so let's not listen to what he has to say" sentiment. Pick the best tools for the job and if a book by someone you've never heard of is the best tool, then use it.

    7. Re:Better books... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with both of you. I do computer science, and love the course. Parts of it are just dumbed down to ridiculous levels, but that just gives me more time to focus on what I enjoy.

      I have contracted in many areas of what I had considered computing. Databases, lotus notes, intranets, coding, etc.
      Then I went to university and discovered the more mathematical side. I'm now at a summer placement using karman filters extensively, and the maths side has been a great help.

  7. Review from ApacheWeek by Styros · · Score: 4, Informative

    ApacheWeek also has a review of this book found here, link

  8. Amazon link by bujoojoo · · Score: 1, Informative

    Here is the Amazon link.

    --
    This space for rent
  9. Re:I am offended by jimm · · Score: 1

    OK, I'll use Comanche instead.

    --
    Transcript show: self sigs atRandom.
  10. Re:My opnion of it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The parent post is just a copy-and-paste karma whore, from this Amazon.com review. Please mod Redundant.

  11. Master... by (trb001) · · Score: 0, Troll

    Excellent though the book was, it badly needed updating.

    Thanks, Yoda...

    1. Re:Master... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      That's perfectly acceptable English word order...

    2. Re:Master... by (trb001) · · Score: 1

      it was a joke dude, just laugh and move on...

    3. Re:Master... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Shouldn't that have been:

      Excellent though the book was, updating it needed badly.

      At least that strikes me as more yoda-like.

  12. tomcat for win32 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am look for resources on changing the vitural memory for tomcat in windoze..does anyone have suggestions?

    1. Re:tomcat for win32 by Lieutenant_Dan · · Score: 1
      I am look for resources on changing the vitural memory for tomcat in windoze..does anyone have suggestions?

      Did you try installing some physical RAM into your machine? I personally use only 32-pin SIMMs with all my production servers.

      --
      Wearing pants should always be optional.
    2. Re:tomcat for win32 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      an application that we use and we are trying to port to tomact requires more virtual momery than normal. Is there a way to change it manually..

  13. Apache 2.0 goes nowhere by mcrbids · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Adoption rates for Apache 2.0 will continue to be slow until things like PHP are supported.

    No way until then.

    Yeah, you can "get it" to work, but when it's good and production stable then I'll consider it...

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    1. Re:Apache 2.0 goes nowhere by EvilEddie · · Score: 0

      Amen to that brother, I had to go back to apache 1.3 because I couldn't get my beloved php to work with apache 2.0

    2. Re:Apache 2.0 goes nowhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PHP doesn't work on Apache 2.0! And I thought it was because I didn't know what I was doing(which I usually don't) I was playing at home with FreeBSD 4.6, Apache 2.0, and friggin PHP wouldn't compile. Luckily I didn't spend to much time on it.

    3. Re:Apache 2.0 goes nowhere by dswensen · · Score: 1

      That's funny, I'm running PHP on Apache 2.0 and didn't seem to have any problems. Strange.

    4. Re:Apache 2.0 goes nowhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, php, AND perchild MPM. That would be awesome for virtual hosting. Basically some really good ideas brewing around 2.0, perhaps they'll become reality by 2.1? Here's hoping.

      Until then, 1.3.26 rules.

    5. Re:Apache 2.0 goes nowhere by Desert+Raven · · Score: 1

      Man, what slack-jawed moderator scored this as flamebait?

      The comments made in the post are dead-on as far as I'm concerned. I run production web-servers, regardless of actual stability, I cannot justify running unsupported software combinations on production machines. I have an obligation to my clients to provide as stable an environment as possible. This means that I cannot upgrade to Apache 2.0 until PHP officially supports it, since I depend heavily on PHP.

      It doesn't mean that I'm saying anything bad about either one of them. In fact, it only means exactly what I said, I cannot upgrade until PHP is officially supported on Apache 2. Where in the @#$% does anyone get the idea this is flamebait?

  14. can anyone recommend... by koogydelbbog · · Score: 1

    a book / reference that is more tuned to writing apache 2 modules? (rather than installation / administration which the ones mentioned so far have been)

    thanks
    andy

    1. Re:can anyone recommend... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you are talking about shared objects, try Kylix

  15. Re:My opnion of it by mwrm · · Score: 1

    Seems this isn't the first time either... See this

  16. Re:Professional Apache by mirko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't see the moderator point, though.
    Anyway, I'd say the Professional Apache is Stronghold.
    Not because of any feature because it *is* Apache but because of its support.
    Many geeks won't need this but mostcorporations includign the one I work for actually require such software to be properly marketed and supported.
    "Properly" stands here for "using a proper contract".

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
  17. Something to know about WROX books by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A couple of years ago I get an interesting e-mail from an "author agent" from Wrox. They were looking to publish a book about Perl and asked if I was interested.

    No, not in writing the book -- in writing a chapter. Apparently they go out and find programmers off the Internet to each write a chapter of the book. Well, I thought that was a strange way to run a railroad, but what the hell. I asked her about the compensation package.

    $1000. Plus $1000 as an "on-time" bonus. No royalties.

    Well, that totally sucked. And on top of that, the deadline was like two weeks away! So I was supposed to write a quality chapter (presumably with lots of tested examples) in two weeks. For $2,000. Yeah right. That's going to produce a quality product.

    Ever since then, I've never gone near Wrox books. This one might be different, but screw them. I don't trust them at all.

    --
    Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    1. Re:Something to know about WROX books by caudron · · Score: 1

      You may as well stay away from Sams, Que, and all the rest too. This is how most if not all tech publishers work. I've been approached a few times. I have a friend who has participated in the process. It's not so bad, though the deadline you suggest is unusual. Either way, they all use collaborative writing and low compensation as the norm. Wrox still puts out the most consistently good tech books of them all, imo.

      --
      -Tom
    2. Re:Something to know about WROX books by broody · · Score: 1

      Oh well.

      As a consumer I care about the quality of the end product, not the process that creates it. I am sure that statement gets those Six Sigma and ISO900X gurus' panties in a bunch but it remains true. If someone writes quality work, I could care less how long it took to write.

      --
      ~~ What's stopping you?
    3. Re:Something to know about WROX books by happystink · · Score: 2

      Uhh, I know many people who have written computer books, and $2000 for a chapter is not too shabby at all. If the book becomes a huge massive hit then yes, not getting royalties would be too bad, but if you really expect a huge amount more than $2000 for one chapter of a computer book, I think you're aiming way too high.

      --

      sig:
      See the "..for smart people" banners Wired runs here? Look elsewhere guys.

    4. Re:Something to know about WROX books by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      If this isn't unusual, then maybe it isn't surprising that most computer books are complete crap. I don't think you are going to get highly qualified people with great writing skills who are going to spend the time necessary to write and debug good in-depth examples for two grand.

      I would be interested to know what O'Reilly pays authors, since those books are pretty consistently good.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    5. Re:Something to know about WROX books by chromatic · · Score: 3, Informative

      The O'Reilly contract is available here. It's a bit old, but the details look the same. (short answer: it depends on the advance)

    6. Re:Something to know about WROX books by Saeger · · Score: 1
      As a consumer I care about the quality of the end product, not the process that creates it.

      Then go buy some Nike's you fuckwad.

      --

      --
      Power to the Peaceful
  18. Drives people to Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If Apache is driving people to Linux, you would think apache.org would run on that instead of FreeBSD.

    1. Re:Drives people to Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They probrably run FreeBSD for some frivilous reason like wanting a site that doesn't suck and can stay up for more than 5 minutes.

  19. CGI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just use PHP thru the CGI. I wonder how that is different from the filter module Apache has?

    Now if only I could get Apache 2.0.40 to compile with mod_ssl->openssl. It has been a real PITA. Tried both static(.a files) and threaded(.so) compiles on openssl. Tried --enable-ssl=(w/o)shared. Nothing works on this Red Hat 7.2 build.

    I belive it to be a problem with Apache compile not fining some gcc file with this gcc version 2.96 on RH7.2. I hate hacked version of linux! But that is about the only thing you get with co-location.

  20. this one is great for starting out. by twocents · · Score: 1

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnIn quiry.asp?userid=0ECFT32QIF&isbn=0672317842

    But after you get into using PHP/Apache etc more, just use the web:

    www.php.net is a prime example of a very, very well executed site that usually gives you all the answers you need.

    That and www.devshed.com (no, I'm not affiliated with either so I'm not a pill pusher!) That site should keep you cranking for a month or so.

  21. That's funny... by Pyrosophy · · Score: 4, Funny
    Apache's HTTP server has been by many measures the most popular web server on the web, and perhaps the primary application that drives people to Linux and open source.

    And here I thought Microsoft Windows was the primary application that drives people to Linux and open source...

    1. Re:That's funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... especially given how you can get apache for practically any platform...

  22. Re:I am offended by felddy · · Score: 1
    From: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/A/Apache_Web_server. html
    The first version of Apache, based on the NCSA httpd Web server, was developed in 1995. Because it was developed from existing NCSA code plus various patches, it was called a patchy server - hence the name Apache Server.
  23. Oreilly doesn't seem to do this. by Codex+The+Sloth · · Score: 2

    I've met quite a few people who have written OReilly books (the **whole** book) so this doesn't seem to be the case. YMMV.

    Thanks for the heads up on Wrox -- I never bought them anyway, but now at least I have a reason not to...

    --
    I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you ... oh wait, I'm #93427. Ha ha! In your face #93428!
  24. Wrox Rocks by scott-thomason · · Score: 1

    You may not like the process, but I have several Wrox books, including the first edition of the Apache book reviewed here, and all of them are excellent. When they use the marketing phrase "programmer-to-programmer", they really mean it. Wrox Rocks.
    ---scott

  25. Re:Professional Apache by KlomDark · · Score: 2

    Uh huh, sure... Watch out on the "most" label. I know of two Fortune 20 corps that use the apache.org version of Apache, and are really annoyed by the fact that Covalent has shifted their focus to supporting only Covalent-supplied versions of Apache.

    Although I totally understand Covalent's point of view - they were killing themselves trying to provide support for any weirdly compiled/strangely hacked version of the apache.org source.

    Covalent's Raven smokes StrongHold for a pre-built and "properly marketed" Apache distro. Most of the Apache developers are employed by Covalent, and Covalent funds a LOT of the ongoing Apache development.

    No, I'm not employed by, or have any financial interested in Covalent, just have been massively impressed with their service and support. We ask for on-site Apache training, they send Ryan Bloom. We look at their Raven package, and they send Dirk-Willem Van Gulik. It's like asking for Linux training and getting Linus fucking Torvalds! :)

  26. I Am a Wrox Author by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can comment on this having written material for two of WROX's books (never you mind which ones)...

    You are correct in that they prefer "multi-author" books. This achieves a couple of things. First, the book is turned out in a much shorter amount of time. This is a legitimate business model, one that adheres to time-to-market and competitiveness. Of course, it takes a very good editor to manage multiple authors and to coordinate their activities. I wish that I could say that my editor was one of them. Sadly, s/he was not. There was *zero* communication between the authors and, in fact, we didn't even know who the other authors were until we got close to publication time. As a result, we also did not know what was being included in the book. This was unfortunate since it would have resulted in a better product overall. In spite of that, however, the book was very well received and sold quite a bit.

    The advantage of the multi-author approach is that it provides us as authors with more time to focus on a particular topic. Furthermore, each author can be picked for their relative area of expertise and right on that. So, for example, with a book on J2EE, the person writing on JMS should be more knowledgeable than the person writing on EJB. Similarly, a person writing about Servlets may not know as much about LDAP. Having each author focus on one or a few topics will (hopefully) provide a better treatment of each topic.

    From the perspective of royalties, Wrox isn't all that bad. If you write a single chapter, you get paid $1,000. That might not sound like much but no one writes technical books with the hope of getting rich. Not on royalties, at least. You make it up on the "bragging rights" when you go on a job interview. Although, be warned that in the current economy, this can backfire on you. Many authors, myself included, have had a difficult time finding work because many recruiters assume that our rates will be to high since we are published. So, they don't even bother to ask. Once I removed the book credits (and articles and lectures and....) I started getting a lot of offers.

    If you write more than one chapter, you get a cut of the royalties. Wrox pays 10% of the sale price (less returns) as a royaly. This 10% gets split among all of the authors who are participating in royalties (this list does not include those who got paid a set fee). Thus, if a book has 10 authors splitting the royalties, you will get 1% of the sale price. If a book sales at $35, that means that you're getting a whopping 35 cents per book. Less taxes. Like I said, no one writes these things to get rich.

    The sad reality of all of this is that you don't end up seeing much money as a result of your efforts. I have received pretty much zilch for my contributions. The only saving grace is that royalty-based authors get a (small) advance.

    One major complaint that I have against Wrox is that they treat your work as a "Right-to-hire." Work that I did for one book has since been used in others, with nothing paid to me save a small credit inside. This is akin to musicians not being paid for when their music appears on one of those compilation CD's.

    I love the idea of writing a book. I very much would like to do it again. However, I would not do it again with Wrox. If you are an aspiring author, I would strongly suggest O'Reilly or A!Press, both of whom have very solid track records with their author-relationships.

    Wrox, my love....you helped me realize a life-long dream and for that I am ever thankful. But like my first real girlfriend, you may have popped my cherry, but you're not the one that I'm going to be spending the rest of my life with.

    1. Re:I Am a Wrox Author by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      Wrox, my love....you helped me realize a life-long dream and for that I am ever thankful. But like my first real girlfriend, you may have popped my cherry, but you're not the one that I'm going to be spending the rest of my life with.

      Indeed. That's what they're counting on. To carry the analogy further, it's not unlike a girl who knows you are so desperate to get laid that you'll spend any amount of money to get into her pants. So you wine, dine and travel only to get a modiocre payoff (if anything).

      I get the feeling that Wrox trolls the Internet looking for poor, unrecognized saps that they can talk into doing a helluva lot of work for next-to-no money just for the privilege of "being a published author". In my case, I wouldn't mind doing a book, but I'll be damned if I'm going to accept slave wages for it.

      Unfortunately, there are probably a LOT of people they can talk into doing it. Oh well; I guess I can't fault them for finding a niche and exploiting it.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    2. Re:I Am a Wrox Author by kubrick · · Score: 1

      Oh well; I guess I can't fault them for finding a niche and exploiting it.

      Isn't that the same argument free-market capitalists use to excuse drug dealers?

      In other words, if no-one sees anything wrong with this behaviour then it will continue. But if enough people tell them that they won't be buying their books because they object to their policies, they have to keep hunting out new audiences as they disillusion all of those they come into contact with.

      --
      deus does not exist but if he does
    3. Re:I Am a Wrox Author by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, I think the difference is that we're talking about normally well-paid professionals. It's hard to argue that people of that class are "exploited" when it's their own ego that causes them to be exploited.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    4. Re:I Am a Wrox Author by kubrick · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I get your point. Still, a lot of people maintain that drug 'addiction' is a matter of choice, as well. :)

      I think it ends up being a karma thing; if they treat people like that long enough eventually it will rebound on them. And I'll have to hope it works that way.

      --
      deus does not exist but if he does
    5. Re:I Am a Wrox Author by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      I actually take offense at that comment but, since you are working from nothing more than conjecture, I'll overlook it.

      Sorry, I didn't mean of that personally.

      It cannot be considered exploitation if both sides agree to the terms.

      Obviously there can be more than financial benefits to this, but the point is that the money they were offering (me, at least) was utterly insulting. The chapter they wanted me to write (I believe it was "Perl in web applications" or something like that) was at least 100 hours for mediocre job, and probably 200 hours for a quality job. $1000/$2000 works out to $10/$20 an hour (or $5/$10). I'm sorry, but that IS slave wage. Now, maybe your deal was better, and it's obviously better if you participate in the royalties.

      Having that book on my resume lends a treemendous amount of credence to my abililties and makes my job a lot easier as my clients and co-workers are less likely to second-guess my suggestions.

      Honestly, I can appreciate that motivation beyond the financial one. I wrote an article for the C/C++ Users Journal one time, mostly for the experience. I worked my ass off for that article, and it took way more hours than I probably should have spent on it (mostly running timing tests). I got $200 for the article, but I was happy because I wanted the experience.

      But after that first experience, like BB King said, "The thrill is gone, baby". Writing a book, even a chapter, is a lot of work, and those wages just aren't going to cut it.

      Like you say, it's not exploitive if everyone agrees to it. But would it really cut into Wrox's profits that much to pay professionals something close to a professional rate, rather than counting on the non-monetary rewards?

      Oh, and lest I forget, the 10% royalty rate is pretty standard, especially for first-time (unproven) authors.

      Well, like you said: few authors get rich being authors. But that doesn't mean they should work for McDonalds wages either.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    6. Re:I Am a Wrox Author by Dominic+Shakeshaft, · · Score: 1

      I am not a Wrox author but I am a Wrox publisher.

      Wrox invites talented programmers to write books with us so that together we can create useful materials that are relevant to other programmers.

      And we are here because this process seems to be fundamentally a healthy one: some programmers share their knowledge by publishing through Wrox, and just about any programmer has the option to learn from what our authors have written. Wrox of course is not a charity: we are an independent publisher and if we are to continue we need the ongoing support of our authors and readers.

      Could Wrox pay professional programming rates? We could not - we would go out of business. We invest a lot of time and resources making Wrox books the best we can make them. It's that simple. The publishing business does not have the same market forces behind it that drives professional programming rates.

      On a related point, yes it is true that if you are a programmer who works with Wrox then you will find we ask you to work harder than most: we invest a lot of time creating our books and we ask our authors to invest a lot of their time and talent to work with us during the writing+editing stages. This is a matter of pride and a matter of identity: we want to make great books, we think our authors want to be proud of what they have published, and we want our readers to feel they have made a great decision to buy and read books from Wrox.

      Wrox Press does not therefore want to insult anyone: we offer author royalties and rates at the level that we can, we review those rates when we can, and we hope that we are offering something valuable for programmers whilst making an honest living.

      If anyone has worked with us as an author on one of our books and doesn't feel that the personal and financial rewards were worth it, please mail me at dominics@wrox.com, I'd like to know. It's great to see some of our authors already on this thread.

      regards,

      Dominic Shakeshaft (Publisher Wrox Press)

    7. Re:I Am a Wrox Author by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      Could Wrox pay professional programming rates? We could not - we would go out of business.

      Thank you for that "publisher's view".

      I guess I'm not necessarily advocating "programming rates" of $100+/hour or something, but the numbers just don't seem to add up for me.

      If the average book is 15 chapters, then you're spending $15,000-$30,000 on writing costs. Let's say it takes a few months of time for an editor to put it all together, and that's another, say, $15K. Typesetting, indexing, another $7K. So rounding up we have a $50K production cost. Books cost about $40-$60 on the average. Let's use $40. Printing, distribution, wholesale, etc, let's say you keep $15. Minus 10% royalty = $11. So based on this, you have to sell around 4500 copies to break even.

      I could be wrong, but even so, it can't be that far off. I would imagine that you sell a lot more than 4500 copies of the average book. I would be curious to know how many copies you usually sell of the typical book.

      By the way, I'm not trying to take you to task about wanting to make a profit. More power to you, I say, and you seem sincere about wanting everyone to be happy in the transaction. I'm just saying that the rates seem awfully low, at least the rates that were offered to me, and when I figure the numbers, it seems like there is a lot more money there.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
  27. mod up more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Score:2? Come on, that's Score:5 'funny because it's true'.

  28. just say no to anything "dot oh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    really. wait for the dot one version. if you're a developer and can screw with stuff, good for you, go for it, and sincere thanks for all the beta-testing and bugfixes. if you're just trying to get a job done with a computer in a production environment, wait for dot one every time.

  29. more like BSD and open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ahem, that should read "drive people towards BSD and open source." linux is an evil copycat OS which is nothing new and has set back the state of computing by 10 years with its still unstable vm, non-standard networking, and lossy filesystem.

  30. I Am a Wrox Author by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RealityMaster, I actually take offense at that comment but, since you are working from nothing more than conjecture, I'll overlook it.

    The fact of the matter is that at the time that I was approached by Wrox, I was speaking at one of the largest technical conferences in the world. Ego had nothing to do with it - it was an opportunity, one which I gladly accepted.

    It cannot be considered exploitation if both sides agree to the terms. Again, as I stated above, no one gets rich off of writing a technical book. Some simple math...a "best seller" is any book that sells over 10,000 units. If a book sells at an average of $35, and the author gets 10%, that's a total of $35,000. Most books do not sell 10,000 units. In the case of a multi-author book, if you write 1/10th, you'll get $3,500. Wrox pays royalties based on the number of chapters that you write - so, it's possible that, if someone writes more chapters than you, they'll get a bigger slice of the royalty than you. Simply put, the royalty is a direct reflection of the amount of work that you did.

    For my own purposes, joining a multi-author project provided me with the experience of writing a book, without all of the work. This isn't laziness, mind you, but the mere fact that scribing a 500-1000 page tome the first time out can be rather intimidating. Also, there are time contraints involved. It often takes an author over a year, sometimes two, to write a book of substance. Further, working on a collabrative project meant that you wouldn't be "alone" in the effort - that you were more part of a team. While the "alone" part didn't pan out, the reviewers, editors, artists, et. al. were superb. And the next time that I participate in a team project, I'll know to be more proactive in communicating with the other authors.

    Ultimately, I wrote the book to achieve two purposes: One, it has always been a goal of mine to get published - to be able to contribute to the technical commuinity that had given so much to me for so many years. I built my career up largely as a direct results of the books that I read. It was great to be able to give something back in return. Two, I am a consultant and a lecturer. Having that book on my resume lends a treemendous amount of credence to my abililties and makes my job a lot easier as my clients and co-workers are less likely to second-guess my suggestions. That is not to say that I am infallible (Lord knows I'm nowhere's near that), but it does help to put my clients at ease in knowing that my opinions can be trusted. The time that it took to do this project was an investment, one that has paid for itself many times over.

    And besides, it made my parents real proud.

    Lastly, insofar as ego goes, it was thoroughly embarrassing to have my picture on the cover. One thing that I have never understood about Wrox is why they feel it is so important to emphasize the author(s) over the materials. Perhaps it's to humanize the subject matter - to make it seem more accessible. Technology can be vert intimidating to many people - maybe seeing someone's mug on the cover of a book ("gee, they look just like me") makes it less so.

    Oh, and lest I forget, the 10% royalty rate is pretty standard, especially for first-time (unproven) authors. Only the very successful (e.g. Martin Fowler) get more and that's still limited to no more than about 20%.

  31. I Am a Wrox Author (again) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hi Dominic! It's a nice surprise seeing you here and welcome to Slashdot. It looks as if you joined for the purpose of posting here today. You pretty much beat me to the punch in your response, but it is spot on.

    RealityMaster, you make some valid points regarding compensation and I'm glad to see that you take the other behind-the-scene costs into account. There are a number of additional expenses that you have overlooked (e.g. technical reviewers get a nice bit of change for their efforts) but you have done a good enough job in your coverage. One thing, however, is that despite the fact that the book's list price is $40-60, the sale price is actually much less. The publisher does not get the sale price - the retailer does. The publisher gets the wholesale price which is typically about 60% of the cover price (providing the retailer with about a 40% markup. Thus, using your $40-60 example, the actual gross amount is somewhere closer to $24-36 range, which is $16-24 less per book than your estimate. Dominic, if I am off on this, please feel free to correct me.

    Would it have been better if I had been paid more for what I wrote - of course, I like cash just as much as the next guy....probably more ;) However, consider this: my billing rate increased nearly 250% once clients found out that I was an author. And that was with them making offers to me, not necessarily what I was asking. Granted the dot.com days have long past and with it the "sports star" rates, but I think that should be enough to illustrate the effect that publishing can have on the individual.

    However, to anyone considering writing all or part of a book, I have to warn you: it is a tremendous amount of work, the rewards are not guaranteed, and you can do it for no other reason but for your own love and interest. To do otherwise is folly and you will truly resent your decision. It would be wise to give it a "test run" by writing an article or two first to get a taste of what it takes to write. Also, read the dedications that authors include in their books - there's a reason that they thank their spouses, friends, cats, and (yes, Dominic, I haven't forgotten) their editors.

    (Incidentally, I should point out that the reason that I have been posting this thread as an AC is because I had already moderated this thread and didn't want to have that work undone.)

    1. Re:I Am a Wrox Author (again) by Dominic+Shakeshaft, · · Score: 1
      Hi there AC, and Reality Master - thanks for the warm welcome

      Reality Master's financial analysis is not that far off, and AC you are right that a typical discount into the sales channel is 60%, which increases the break even point by that sort of magnitude, yes it does [bites tongue]

      I have a lot of information in front of me about how many copies a computer book sells, across various publishers and technologies. I need to keep it quite general, but in today's book market, for most publishers (unless they really crack a book from the furnace that just all of us feel we must have [one book to bind us? apols]) then it just isn't that easy to go significantly beyond your discount-reajusted break-even point at the moment. Especially when there are so many books out there on some of the recent technologies - it is one tough market for publishers, although more books create a wider choice for programmers - in the short term at least.

      The Y2000 period was a little bit different, and Wrox for sure was able to pay higher rates to its author and reviewer colleagues during that time. As an independent company, we adapt to the market conditions as best we can: that's why we do review our author rates.

      But I tell what you already know indeed: Wrox rates and general publisher rates in the programming sector won't usually let anyone quit their day job. But Wrox isn't about quiting our day jobs ... if you're an author/programmer then you like what you do and I really trust that there's some good things that happen when you work with Wrox as an author or reviewer.

      And for sure :) you've gotta really WANT to work with Wrox to publish your ideas to other programmers - more than once we've received a complaint from spouses about how involved their partner has become with a Wrox project. I have myself worked as an editor through a long day, slept on the floor by my computer, and picked myself up to start again a few hours later for the next day. NOT that this is how you have to do it at Wrox!! - but sometimes, when the spirit is with you, the book can mean that much. It felt great to see that book become what we all wanted it be when it was published - but then I took some time off!! No regrets. This is our lives, and imo we should sometimes do things that just feel good. I continue to hope that working with Wrox as an author and reviewer can supply some of life's rich stuff (if not enough cash to exactly retire.)

      OK you've got me ready to go and read some of our recent author dedications again now ... see you later! xd