Open Source Mac Game Programming Competition

Amazed by Winterblink · 2002-09-07 10:16 · Score: 2, Troll

I'm amazed at the Mac game industry actually. I'm amazed there ISN'T one. Hardly any games end up on the Mac. For something which is touted as being a multimedia platform, it's quite surprising. It can't simply be that there's a smaller userbase, because there are LOTS of people who use Macs (I'm not one of them, but oh well). Anyone have any ideas?

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Re:Amazed by PZMyers · 2002-09-07 10:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm amazed, too. Why did you bother to comment here when you clearly know nothing about Macs?

There is a good, solid gaming industry for Macs. We don't usually get the games quite as promptly, and we don't see the less popular, marginal games from the PC world being ported over at all, but there is no dearth of good games available. Right now, my kids are playing various incarnations of the Sims, Black & White, Unreal, Age of Empires, etc...they have more games available than I can keep track of, at any rate.
Re:Amazed by alfredo · 2002-09-07 10:35 · Score: 2

The Mac was never marketed as a game platform.

If you want to create, get a Mac, if you want to play games, get a PC. That seemed to be the attitude with many Mac users.

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Re:Amazed by eric+peterson · 2002-09-07 10:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

Apple did their level best to discourage game development on the Mac, early on. They were worried about it being perceived as a game machine (as the IIc was) rather than a serious business computer (like IBM's entry offering). To that end, they managed development on the platform much like Sony and other console developers do today; access to technical documentation, development systems, and serious tools (C compilers, assemblers, etc.) was tightly controlled. You had to submit a project proposal and have it approved, and proposals for games were decidedly not welcome.

Not surprisingly, it worked.

Tech docs weren't available for the Mac until several years later, when the PC game market was already well established. The Mac was also somewhat hampered by the closed architecture and need for approval from Apple before marketing hardware - you couldn't just develop a zany 3D-accelerator video card because you wanted to - until the PC had practically conquered the market.

Of course, almost none of these reasons apply today - you can easily get the latest GeForce for your Mac - but there is a great deal of inertia in the industry, and the smaller userbase doesn't help. There is also a viscious circle at work here: because of the lack of games, Mac owners didn't buy their systems to play games, and aren't perceived as game buyers.
Re:Amazed by Gizzmonic · 2002-09-07 12:15 · Score: 2

Mac users like myself tend to play games on consoles, where programmers actually care about "getting down" with the hardware and tightly optimizing for a platform.
PC programmers don't give a shit about you if your PC rig is older than 2 years (sometimes even less-look at all the people creaming over DOOM3, which could easily cause cost over $500).
The console world is full of virtuoso development houses that continually churn out great games (Capcom, Konami, SEGA to name a few).
The PC game market is still reinventing Doom, Warcraft, and flight simulators, over and over again. Is it really worth it to waste money on a platform that holds its audience in such low regard?

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Re:Amazed by GMontag451 · 2002-09-07 12:28 · Score: 2

Another problem is the dominanc of the direct X API's which are proprietary microsft.
Actually, I just saw a blurb in MacAddict about a company called Coderus that has ported the DirectX APIs to the Mac. They support both OS 9 and OS X, and any computer later than rev B iMacs. Their product isn't for consumers though, its for developers. Perhaps we could see Connectix using this technology to finally make it feasible to play Windows games under emulation.
Re:Amazed by MoneyT · 2002-09-07 14:41 · Score: 5, Funny

Right....

So WC3, RTCW, Unreal, UT, Q3, Civilization, Max Payne, Deus Ex, Jedi Outcast, those aren't games. No those are decoration. The real games are on PC, you know, like WC3, RTCW, Unreal, UT, Q3, Civilization, Max Payne, Deus Ex, Jedi Outcast. Oh wait a minute, those are the same games... whoops

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T Money
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Re:Games for MAC? by cscx · 2002-09-07 10:19 · Score: 3

If games like TuxRacer could so easily be ported to DirectX, I don't see why it could'nt be ported to Mac OSX... oh wait, it has!

Re:Games for MAC? by lucianx · 2002-09-07 10:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

If you write a game to OS X's Native APIs, that means you're either writing for Carbon in C or C++, or Cocoa in Objective-C.

You'd have a tough time making just the Objective-C/NextStep low-level APIs compile from OS X to GNUStep; then you'd have to deal with the proprietary nib format not being portable, and X-Specific windowing calls.

You might get some degree of portability if you really stick to something like pure OpenGL for rendering and just rely on the X-specific windowing to set up your GLContext.

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What a coincidence by superpeach · 2002-09-07 10:57 · Score: 3, Funny

I just saw this link from NTK. Parody of some Apple advert or something aparently.

Minesweeper by swb · 2002-09-07 11:00 · Score: 2

I hope its minesweeper or the networked hearts game.

Nit picking but... by MisterBlister · 2002-09-07 11:00 · Score: 3, Interesting

If developers use the "uDevGame License", which is one of the license options for this then their game isn't really Open Source as defined by the OSI (and it certainly isn't Free Software)..

Re:Nit picking but... by Griggs · 2002-09-07 12:31 · Score: 5, Informative

The uDevGame license was created because truly open-source or free software is a concept some Mac developers haven't learned to embrace yet. In a nutshell the license tries to ensure that code is used for educational purposes (figure out how they did it) rather than just used. This also makes possible commercial development of the game more of a possibility, an issue that was important to some potential entrants. However we also give most of the traditional licenses (GPL, etc) as options, and they are being used. Griggs Webmaster of iDevGames.com

game collection by lingqi · 2002-09-07 11:03 · Score: 3, Funny

I think somebody should port Solitare and FreeCell to Mac. FreeCell already got the name figure out -- or would that be OpenFreeCell? FreeFreeCell? hmm...

but anyway. I swear Jobs can increase Apple's market share by 300% if he included Solitare with it. I mean, a windows machine usually spend 50% of its useable life on that program.

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Re:game collection by victim · 2002-09-07 11:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

MacOS used to come with Eric's Solitaire way back in the system 8 or 9 days. It only played a few types of games unless you forked over some cash, but the game play was beautiful. You just sort of grabbed the cards and flung them where you wanted them and they zipped into place. Very natural. Always amazing to see other solitaires don't do it that way.

Disclaimer: maybe windows' solitaire does this. I've never played it. I speak of the one's in Debian and freely available for the mac.

Mac hardware wasn't up to the job by realmolo · 2002-09-07 11:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

Not that it was WEAK, but until Direct X started being used for almost every game, most games were written to directly control VGA cards at the register level. This gave good performance that wasn't possible in a GUI environment, because of the overhead of having to use inefficient APIs to draw everything.

Well, Macs never had the option of directly controlling the video card registers. It wasn't allowed. You had to use QuickDraw to do everything.

With 3D accelerated games, and cards to support them, it was finally possible to do a Mac game decently, since OpenGL could be used to control the 3D card directy, mostly avoiding QuickDraw and all that overhead. There was also the short-lived GameSprockets API, that never really caught on, and as far as I know isn't used/supported by Apple anymore. There STILL isn't a good way to do 2D games on a Mac. And by good, I mean efficient and hardware accelerated.

Re:Mac hardware wasn't up to the job by Tokerat · 2002-09-07 11:57 · Score: 3, Informative

...because of the overhead of having to use inefficient APIs to draw everything.

it was finally possible to do a Mac game decently, since OpenGL could be used to control the 3D card directy, mostly avoiding QuickDraw and all that overhead. There was also the short-lived GameSprockets API, that never really caught on, and as far as I know isn't used/supported by Apple anymore

QuickDraw takes advantage of any QuickDraw accelerated video cards, and many of the Mac-specific cards supported this until 3D acceleration become popular.

QuickDraw is VERY fast (250Mhz machine, 22FPS full screen with CopyBits()).

GameSprockets is still a part of Mac OS X today, although it's mostly used to do screen resolution changes.

Ever seen SpriteWorld?

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Re:Mac hardware wasn't up to the job by Tokerat · 2002-09-07 16:34 · Score: 2

As much as that was meant to be -1 Flamebait, you're unfortunately right...

SpriteWorld is one of the best organized, fastest graphics libraries I've ever used. I highly recommend. See the parent of the parent for a link.

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CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?

Re:Lame prizes by MalleusEBHC · 2002-09-07 11:24 · Score: 3, Funny

Considering that you think 44k-66k is good money for a developer, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say you aren't from California.

Re:Winning entry by Cryptnotic · 2002-09-07 11:29 · Score: 2

tmp.c:3: parse error before `;' tmp.c: In function `main': tmp.c:7: parse error before `}' tmp.c:8: `end' undeclared (first use in this function) tmp.c:8: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once tmp.c:8: for each function it appears in.)

Wow. You can't even write a "hello world" program. That's truely pathetic.

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For those who can't code on mac by jukal · 2002-09-07 11:32 · Score: 3, Informative

Here is a good substitute for the competition :)

So if it's open source... by schnitzi · 2002-09-07 11:42 · Score: 2, Funny

So if it's open source, can I just take one of the entries already submitted, enhance it a little bit, and resubmit it?

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Games in general these days by geek · 2002-09-07 11:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

Suck.

I remember years ago, you didn't have to worry much about whether a game would run on your system. Devs are pushing the envelope so far that it's out of reach for 90% of all consumers, Mac and PC alike.

Most people regardless of their platform still use PC's with 500mhz processors or slower. However the specs for games such Doom3 are outrageous.

Devs used to care about a good storyline, exciting game play etc. Now it's all about who gets the best framerates, what game has the prettiest textures. I don't care what the game looks like anymore, thats all window dressing. I want a game that's FUN.

I happen to be a mac user and I can attest that when/if a game is ported to the Mac from the PC, it's usually a great game. You see far less junk on the Mac. The downside is we usually see the games a year or 2 later.

I play WC3 and AvP, other than that I stick with the console where I'm not locked into an "upgrade path" every six months. I don't care what the latest and greatest is. I want value out of what I own NOW.

Re:Games in general these days by Powercntrl · 2002-09-07 12:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

Devs used to care about a good storyline, exciting game play etc. Now it's all about who gets the best framerates, what game has the prettiest textures. I don't care what the game looks like anymore, thats all window dressing.

Should I post this as anon to avoid burning karma? Nah.

The reason developers now make games that are all about framerates and pretty textures? It sells. The gamers that open their wallets and fork over the green decide where game development is heading.

Maybe it was cheaper to develop a game back in the hayday of "adventure games that actually had a plot", maybe all these "give me a good plot not fancy graphics" whiners aren't putting their money where their mouth is, maybe there's just a much better return on FPS/eyecandy games. Whatever the reason, every once in awhile you still see a game comes out that tries to revitalize the adventure game genre and it experiences lackluster sales.

Usually the most common excuse I've seen is that the new adventure game doesn't live up to the legacy of the older games everyone remembers from when the genre was still alive and kicking. The reason is there was a lot more competion to make a good game back then... Now, adventure games are almost a lost art and it will probably take a few tries before some competion builds back up. It means people will have to fork over some money for some lousy games in order to convince more developers that adventure is still a viable genre.

Course, open source changes the rules a bit. Seems though that most open source games are limited to emulators, software versions of board/card games and Tux racer. If the open source community picks up the adventure game genre, it would sure be an interesting thing to see.

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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Re:Games in general these days by jbolden · 2002-09-07 14:17 · Score: 2

10 years ago:

$1000 PC was a piece of junk
$2000 PC was average
$4000 PC was good

today the average PC runs $900. I think the average has moved down quite a bit. I bet you can still run most games on a $2000 PC setup to run games well.
Re:Games in general these days by Trepidity · 2002-09-07 14:59 · Score: 2

Devs used to care about a good storyline

Yeah, you know Doom and Duke Nukem 3d were widely renowned for their storylines...

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10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Re:Games in general these days by MoneyT · 2002-09-07 15:10 · Score: 2

I personaly think the real reason we don't see any challenging games any more is that the majority of gammers have become dumb. FPS is all they really understand. They don't want to solve puzzels or make decisions, they want to blow stuff up. So sad.

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T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Re:Games in general these days by Perdo · 2002-09-07 19:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

Warcraft III.

What is its framerate?

What is its unit sales?

Framerate does not sell games.

There was Grim Fandango, Gabriel Knight and Monkey Island... Then online gaming really picked up. Adventure gaming died because your "opponent" is the person who set the puzzle. The puzzle never changes. Compare that challenge to evolving strategies of online opponents.

Games sell because of challenge. Play Counterstrike for three years and what challenge is there? A bunch of other people who have also been playing for three years.

Play Grim Fandango for 3 years and you have played Grim Fandango for three years.

Challenge not Framerate.

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If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
Re:Games in general these days by Broccolist · 2002-09-07 19:52 · Score: 2

I have another theory for the low sales of adventure games: they suck. Back in the eighties, there wasn't really an alternative to adventure games if you wanted to play games on your PC. The only notable PC game from those days that comes to my mind is Silpheed. Other than that, you had the Sierra and Lucasfilm adventure games --- I bought and played them as much as everyone else, but in hindsight they were terrible games.
Playing adventure games has always been more about second-guessing the author of the game than actual logic. Can't enter the castle? Reasonable things like killing the guard aren't allowed. No, the developer has decreed you must make a disguise. Take the mustard, use it on the cat hair to make a fake mustache, then fashion false glasses out of the gears of the music box you found in the dungeon basement. How is this "fun" exactly? And gee, being sane you can't figure this "puzzle" out? Then you'll just have to stay stuck and frustrated for hours.
And the writing in most adventure games is atrocious. The authors were mostly just random programmers with no real creativity or sense of drama. The text of many Sierra games looks like it was written by a half-literate 15-year-old.
No, all this adventure game praising is just false nostalgia. Face it: GTA3 is much more fun than whatever you were playing back then.
Re:Games in general these days by RobertFisher · 2002-09-08 12:16 · Score: 2

And the writing in most adventure games is atrocious. The authors were mostly just random programmers with no real creativity or sense of drama. The text of many Sierra games looks like it was written by a half-literate 15-year-old.

No, all this adventure game praising is just false nostalgia. Face it: GTA3 is much more fun than whatever you were playing back then.

Maybe better than the games you were playing back then...

One word... Infocom.

Remember Deadline? Enchanter? Planetfall? Starcross? Infidel? Wishbringer? Among many others?
These games had a writing style comparable to good novels. (Not exactly James Joyce, but perhaps to popular authors.)

Comparing those games to GTA is just a joke. Their puzzles were intricately crafted. I recall in Sorcerer, one entered a time travel puzzle on entering a coal mine. You encountered an older version of yourself upon entering the mine, who tells you a combination to a lock in exchange for your spell book. A few minutes later, you find yourself back in the same position as your older self. If you failed to give the book over as your younger self, you would die shortly after leaving the mine. And if you failed to tell your younger self the combination, you would set off a temporal paradox that promptly caused you to cease to exist when your younger self could not unlock the lock. Now, GTA has puzzles and story lines that can compete with that? I think not!

Bob

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Re:Games in general these days by shimmin · 2002-09-16 06:01 · Score: 2

Maybe it was cheaper to develop a game back in the hayday of "adventure games that actually had a plot", maybe all these "give me a good plot not fancy graphics" whiners aren't putting their money where their mouth is, maybe there's just a much better return on FPS/eyecandy games. Whatever the reason, every once in awhile you still see a game comes out that tries to revitalize the adventure game genre and it experiences lackluster sales.
Another factor is that the video game market is one of the most tightly bottled there is. Far worse than music, almost as bad as Hollywood. Go into a computer game store and count how many titles are actually for sale. Try the same trick in bookstore or music store of similar size -- there's at least an order of magnitude's difference. Or see how long a given game is actually on the shelf for. (Again compare to music or books.)
The way the market is structured, there's only room for a few dozen hits at a time, and the major game publishers are going to dump millions into promotion of just a few games to make sure their chosen horses are those hits. And if you're going to spend that money, you're going to spend it on what's easiest to promote -- eye candy is ready made advertisement.
Who actually buys a game they know nothing about, just to see if it's any good? At $50/box, not many. Whereas I'll regularly grab a book by an author I've never read. The price and transient stock of computer games makes it a market where creativity is not in general profitable.

Re:SDL can be *natively* compiled on Mac OS X by joto · 2002-09-07 12:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

I am starting to come to the conclusion that being incredibly dense is almost like a requirement for being on slashdot.

You don't need Objective C to run "natively" on Max OS. You can also use Java (Mac OS X at least), assembler, C, C++, Pascal, or anything else. If your application only uses SDL and standard C/C++ calls, there is no reason to "wrap" anything in some other language.

Re:Lame prizes by Griggs · 2002-09-07 12:41 · Score: 4, Informative

This is a contest, not an attempt to hire cheap labor!

We have considered running it without prizes, but there is no reason why we can't help good developers along by giving them tools they may need.

It's not necessary to work full-time on a game. Indeed Mac game programming is a hobby rather than a profession for most iDevGames users.

The contest is fun and somewhat challenging for developers, mostly for the fun of it, but we do have some good prizes too.
The Mac community gets some cool new games to play, source code to learn from, and probably more skilled developers.

BTW, for uDevGame 2001 we had only $4200 in prizes, but we still had 24 entries. Now, thanks to the generous support of various companies we have more than doubled our prize pool.

If it is Open Source, it's good by christurkel · 2002-09-07 12:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

No matter what them platform, Open Sourcxe competition should be promoted. The fact that in this case its for the macintosh is irrelevant. If its open source, it's good.

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Carbon API "stops" ports ... by AHumbleOpinion · 2002-09-07 14:41 · Score: 2

Most applications written for MacOS X are not using the *NIX side of the API family, Cocoa. There is a second API, Carbon, that is derived from the traditional legacy Mac Toolbox/Quickdraw API. Carbon has two advantages: (1) It targets both MacOS X and MacOS 9. (2) It reuses existing knowledge, experience, tools, and libraries. These carbon apps are not really any easier to port to other platforms than traditional Mac apps. It can be done, but it's not as easy as going from one *NIX to another.

Re:Lame prizes by MoneyT · 2002-09-07 14:51 · Score: 2

For a couple months of doing what I do for a hobby (this is a contest, contests get entered by hobbyists) I'd say 11 grand is nice. That would get me 2 nice new G4s and some nice developer software packages.