What is the Value of a Second Major?

An Anonymous Student asks: "I am a senior in college, majoring in computer science. I only need two more CS classes to finnish a BS. But all along I have also been taking math classes and find that I am only three classes away from a finishing a BS in math as well. (We normally take nine classes a year) So Here is the question to people out in the real world: Is it worth it to get a second degree? Do employers or grad schools care about that stuff? or should I just take fun random stuff in my last year as an undergrad?"

Comments

2 majors

[pnutjam]

I'd go for it, what will you miss out on if you buckle down for another semester? Compare that to what a hassle it will be to finish it later if you decide a double major is worth it.

Re:2 majors

[cbass377]

Now is the perfect time to go for it. The economy sucks major. You are not likely to get a good job (decent wage, in your preferred field) in less than 3-4 months. Might as well press on.

Re:2 majors

[mikehoskins]

Put it this way. It can't hurt you. Secondly, it *could* help you.

However, I understand that head hunters are saying you need three things in this economy to get a job:
A BS/BA or better college diploma
Experience
Certification, of some sort

Right now, there are a few kinds of skilled people submitting literally hundreds of resumes for the same job. They are getting these kinds of candidates:
Degree + Experience, no Cert
Cert + Experience, no Degree
Degree + Cert, no Experience (rarely?)

They rarely get the person with the Degree + Cert + Experience. Those are the people who get hired fastest -- soft skills notwithstanding.

If you have all the elements above, a second BS can only help differentiate you from the next guy. Again, it may or may not help, but it can't hurt.

You might not directly get compensated more than the next guy. However, you might actually land a job, while somebody equal in every other way might not.

(The thing I lack is certification. Let's hope I don't get laid off.)

Get a skill, not a diploma

[prostoalex]

From my own experience I would say that having a certain degree just gets you in the door, but what's considered after that is the skill level and your ability to learn new things.

Are the courses left adding to your skill level? Would you know something that you didn't know before? If your professional value increases, I would say take them.

With all said above, another argument for getting a second degree would be the possibility of applying for all those jobs that have a required major, sometimes the employers won't even evaluate your resume if it says "B.S. in Math required" and all you have is CS degree that you know is almost equivalent to Math degree.

Re:Get a skill, not a diploma

[pizza_milkshake]

From my own experience I would say that having a certain degree just gets you in the door, but what's considered after that is the skill level and your ability to learn new things.

i agree with you in part, but remember - getting in the door, especially today and perhaps for the next few years, is the hardest part. besides, this person isn't asking "should i start a whole new degree?" -- they're 3 classes away from a second major. sure, getting the second major might not make you a better ______, but slacking off and taking "gym 101" instead isn't going to either, and you don't have that sexy extra line on your resume.

my opinion

[pizza_milkshake]

as someone who's working full-time and going to school part-time on getting his first degree, i would say you should make the most of school while you're there. from your intro it seems as though you're interested in both CS and math... if it's only a "little" more work to get the second major, i can't see how that can hurt you. if you need to take 9 classes per year and you only need 5 to complete 2 degrees, that still leaves you 4 classes to waste however you like.

down the road you may decide you'd rather teach math or take on a job heavily involved in math... if you get your degree now it will open up that opportunity right away (going back to school is a pain in the ass). and, as someone who's seen alot of people interviewed (we work in a small office, interviews are done in the open), i can tell you that a double-major can only add to your appeal to prospective employers. good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Only three classes?

[stefanlasiewski]

Heck, if you're only 3 classes away from a second degree, go for it. It's well worth your time.

Think of it this way, you're 95% on the way to your second degree... why stop now?

You can always work in your college town and go to school part time to finish up those 3 classes.

the value of majors

[drDugan]

... is almost nil

I majored in Physics and Chemistry, worked for a while, did a PhD in Bioinformatics, and now am working in business development in drug discovery/development.

How much did the 2nd major in chem help me? not much.

Just live your life.

Second major

[Lando]

When considering whether to hire you or not, many places won't be able to evaluate your skills... Instead they will rely on your resume. Having a double major is not the "norm" and will definately be an added plus to your resume.

In my opinion it will definately be worth it... If I had the choice between two people of the same skillset, but one had a second major I would consider that one more of a "go-getter" and all things being equal would hire him/her.

Re:Second major

[anonymous cowpie]

I reached the point where I needed two more classes to finish my 2nd major (psychology in my case), and it was definitely worthwhile when applying to graduate schools and, later, when interviewing for my first job.

Did grad schools or employers care what my 2nd major was? Most of them did not. But having finished two majors (while working part-time in my case) was one way I "stood out".

Later, when I went to college campuses interviewing CS/CE majors for my first employer, an additional major (especially in math) was always a big plus.

Re:Second major

[Lando]

Um, are you hiring? I not only did a second major, but a second degree. I just graduated in June with a BSCS and a BSMath.

Would that I was hiring... Sigh...

Last couple of years has been hard for me personally, have fallen from 17 employees two years ago to just myself at the moment..

I definately understand your problems, I'm more of a CS major myself plan on going back to college in 4 years to work on my PHD in EE, but knowing over 50 programming languages I am always amazed at the number of people that were highered based on their resume' rather than their actual knowledge...

The one bit of advice I can offer though, set your sites a little higher... Don't go for the "normal" job.

Case in point... For several years I had tried to get a decent job roughly 30-40K a year with no success. Finally I gave up and applied for what I thought was a menial job at AT&T. AT&T had run an incorrect add for tape mounting staff from which they had a couple of dozen applicants... The real ad, ie a systems adminstration position, one of the top positions 70-80K a year was the real job.

I felt it was kinda funny that to be a tape mounter I needed to take the UNIX test... lol, especially since I hadn't worked in UNIX for about 10 years (Was doing spot jobs as Microsoft Access Developer)

Imagine my supprise when I found out what the actual job was and was offered the position. Going from paying myself 7k a year to over 70K a year was quite nice...

Later when hunt for another job, I did the same thing, looked for jobs in the 110K - 140K position and had 3 job offers in a month.

The point, although I may ramble a bit, is that going after the jobs that are about twice your current expectation. These jobs tend to look at a person on a more personal level, the managers tend to have more of a clue, etc etc etc.

It's counter intuitive, the higher you set your requested income the more they want you...

Truth is that most people are "normal" and normal people are expected to step through hoops and make more income slowly each year by getting raises. If you want to really get ahead it's better to step outside of that role so that you aren't dealing with the "normal" folks.

Good luck

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ

[Anonymous Coward]

"I only need two more CS classes to finnish a BS."

ENGLISH 101. ENROLL.

Re:Jesus Tap Dancing Christ

[inburito]

MIT actually does that.
Once admitted you're required to take a writing test that is waived only if you got 5 in ap english. If you don't pass this test you need to take a course in english composition. You're also required to take humanities subjects throughout your studies and two out of these eight required courses have to be communication intensive(verbal/writing).

If its no extra effort...

[Ioldanach]

If it isn't truly extra effort (i.e., you'd have been taking 3 classes anyways), definitely go for it. Despite what some may say, there will be jobs that will be impressed by a double-major. Even if you're applying for a stock CS job, that extra major can, in the first 5 years or so of your career, mark a difference between you and the other interviewees. CS jobs aren't as easy to come by as they were 2 years ago, so the edge will really help.

Remember the audience...

[jspayne]

...for your resume: Human Resources dorks. They look at two degrees and say, "Wow, that's more than one so he must be really smart" Always remember that you ususally need to get past HR before you get to the folks with a clue...

It worked for me anyway :)

Jeff

It depends on your career goals and plans

[madstork2000]

If you plan to find a job in a large company, and remain mostly anonymous, your "stats" are more important, because your work will be viewed and used by many people you may never come into personal contact with. They will see your bio on the company intranet, and get an email from you (cc'd to about a hundred other managers and co-workers). Once you have been there long enough you'll be able to have a reputation that stands on its own, but until then your credentials will help your co-workers evaluate you and "judge" you.

Now on the other hand if you are the more adventuresome type, and are looking for a challenge more than a paycheck, and find a great job at a small company, a second major will be much less worth while. As the people will know you for who you are and what you can do.

I have personally worked at large and small companies, and now run my own. I think you're better off deciding what type of company and what type of job, when making decisions.

The number one bit of advise is enjoy your time in school. College represents the most freedom you'll ever have, most just don't see the forest through the trees (I know I didn't.)

MS2k

Go for fun learning -- it's your last chance

[GuyMannDude]

I am a senior in college ... Do employers or grad schools care about that stuff?

First of all, if you're already a senior then grad schools aren't going to care all that much about what you do in your final year unless you really screw up. That, of course, is assuming you're planning on grad school right after undergrad. Even so, I'm guessing that most employers and grad schools care more about your GPA than whether you have a double major. Both employment and grad school will want you to specialize so impressing them with how broad your education is probably won't work. Just my opinion.

or should I just take fun random stuff in my last year as an undergrad?

I would really encourage you to take this as your last opportunity to learn something besides CS or Math. College is a great opportunity to expand one's horizons. Unfortunately, most students don't realize that until after they have graduated. Have you ever wondered what philosophy was all about? Psychology? Anthropology? This is your last chance to find out.

Bottom line is that if you're a senior then you've pretty much established what grad schools and employers are going to think about you. If you've done good work and have a good GPA, then enjoy this last chance at college life. If you've goofed around and your GPA sucks, you've already screwed yourself. Forget trying to impress people with a last-ditch effort.

GMD

Re:Go for fun learning -- it's your last chance

[shoppa]

Both employment and grad school will want you to specialize so impressing them with how broad your education is probably won't work.

Two points:

• Some organizations are looking for breadth. Not the organizations who are looking for drones who code C all day, but organizations that are looking for truly talented leaders.
• CS and Math isn't a lot breadth :-). CS and Eastern European history is, CS and African Lit is, CS and Civil Engineering is!

a better question...

[kevin lyda]

can you find three math classes that would interest you? for instance i really wish i'd been able to take a math class that would cover the fundamental mathematics behind modern cryptography. or one on topology would have been interesting.

yes the degree is important, but perhaps even more important is the classes you take. i've always been impressed when interviewing people who can describe a few of their classes and what they got from them.

i've found that graduates that complain a college degree is just a piece of paper were only there to get a piece of paper...

Did it.

[Urox]

My first BS, however, was Chemistry and the second Math.

* Do it if it takes you a year or less. 2 degrees in 5 years looks more impressive than 1 degree in 4.
* Do it if it raises your gpa. GPA is not everything, but it is definitely BIG. More so when it stands out (either too low or very high).
* Do it because it's easier to stay as a 6th year senior in college than trying to get back in for a second degree. You will have a harder and longer time getting a second degree once you have been shoved out the door with your first. However, you can always have a Post-Bacc gpa which often counts higher than your undergrad.
* Do it if you enjoy that subject. You should take what you enjoy in college, not what you have to.
* Do it for the diversity on your application. On this, however, most companies are stupid in that they overlook math majors in favor of the generic CS but I'm employed (currently) so it isn't all bad.

Re:Did it.

[pthisis]

Do it if it raises your gpa. GPA is not everything, but it is definitely BIG.

Only if you're applying to grad school, and even then it's far less important than any research you've done.

In some fields, when you're job hunting straight out of college employers might ask your GPA. But especially if you're looking for a programing job, it'll be far more important to show your skills and prior work/research (math _skills_ will count big) than to list your GPA. That fun open-source project you wrote counts for more than an extra .5 on the GPA.

I've never even been asked for my GPA when job hunting, in fact I finished at CMU in 97 and can't remember what it was (in contrast to the high school GPA and SATs which are burned into my brain as a result of the college application process).

Get the 2nd major if you want to take the classes, but if you have another field of interest go for it--you'll be learning in-field skills for the rest of your career, you won't often have such easy access to that art history or theoretical physics class. A math degree, like a 4.0, might help you get the first job but a photography class will give you a skill you'll use off and on for the rest of your life (and it might me _more_ valuable than that math degree depending on the employer and the job--it's amazing how often something seemingly worthless coincides with really cool job).

Sumner

whaaat???

[delorean]

I've heard of Second Lieutenants... but Second Majors?
Additionally, I've heard of Major Octaves, Major Domos, Major General, and even a General Protection Fault (nepotism for he is related to the Colonel, I think)
Oh well, learn something gnu every day, I always say.

Go for it...

[singularity]

Taking the classes to get the degree in math will not cost you a whole lot, and will only work to your benifit. Even if your future employer has no need for a math degree, they should be impressed by the fact that you did extra work in college to get one.

Ideally the second major would be in a different field than the first to show your varied abilities, but any second major will show your added initiative.

Graduating from college I was one class away from a second degree. I was going to get a B.A. in Math, and only needed a seminar for a B.S. in Psychology. However, the seminar was only offerred in the fall, and I wanted to graduate that spring (I could not take the seminar the fall prior because or pre-reqs).

In the end, I am glad that I left early. The extra half a year of a salaried position more than made up for it.

Now that I am looking for a new job, however, I see the benifit that the second degree would have on my resume.

For you, since it will not require stayign around another semester, I would highly suggest getting the second major.

It does matter

[Lux Interior]

As one of the people who does hiring for a small firm, we look for well-roundedness in all employees. Someone who has been exposed to, say, history courses, music appreciation courses, or even--gasp-- sports management or courses of that ilk-- in addition to whatever their main concentration is-- denote a well-rounded person who will be able to write, speak, interact, show up on time, and in general act more like a well-rounded human being than most.

Of course, this is mostly perception, but it's perception via your resume and interview that will get you hired. We look at hundreds of similar candidates for every position, and anyone who can both demonstrate excellence in their profession/main field, and the well-roundedness that is a good indicator of creativity, are immediately at the top of the stack.

As long as you're not sacrificing any crucial courses to get this extra breadth of knowledge, by all means go for it. And drink lots of beer. You'll be a senior.

Math Minor OK, but learn to communicate

[4of12]

My advice is to take some humanities courses to learn better how to communicate with your fellow human beings.

I think if you asked a lot of employers they'd tell you that a big problem is having to hire technically proficient staff that do not have the ability to write a sensible paragraph.

If you can write as well in English as you can program the latest Design Pattern, then you will go much further in your career.

To be all zen-like

[Screaming Lunatic]

[zen-mode] The value of a second major, depends on what you value. [/zen-mode]

Seriously, if you like math, get your math degree. Don't do it because you'll make X amount of more money.

If you like something, then you'll be good at it. If you're good at it, then you'll make money.

And if you want to go to grad school, can you handle working on math stuff for another 2-4 years...and enjoy it? It's your life.

Yes, No, and Maybe

[Red_Winestain]

As a faculty member at a university, I advise undergraduates (and graduate students, too). There are three different answers, depending on you.

1. Interest level: Do you like math? How much more (or less) would you enjoy taking fun electives? This is usually your last chance to take advantage of your college experience, so pay careful attention to what you might be missing. I opted for a film making class (we used Super 8!), an advanced seminar on arcane programming, and an ancient history course rather than accumulate another major and I'm still glad I did. I enjoyed all three.
2. Career plans: In the absence of other factors, a double-major is better than a single major as long as your GPA doesn't suffer. Unfortunately, many people look only at GPA, not at what you learned. If taking those math classes might bring your GPA down, don't do it at this stage. It will look like you are slacking off, which is bad for business and academia. If it won't affect your GPA, then do it: it will look better in many business situations.
3. Grad School: Double major doesn't add anything to most admissions committees. They'll see all your math courses anyway.

Second certification

[coyote-san]

I have both math and physics BS degrees (actual separate degrees and diplomas, with separate winter and spring graduations), and did most of my graduate work in CS.

The bottom line is that the guy who actually interviews you will know that's not much difference between somebody who squeaked through a degree program with the absolute minimum number of courses, and one who fell one class short.

But the HR department, which increasingly sees itself as a roadblock to all but the most qualified candidates, doesn't have that nuanced grasp. You're either an MSIE, or you're not. Never mind how much experience you really have, or if it's just a paper cert. You're either an Oracle cert'd DBA or you're not.

If you're applying for a job that involves heavy math - or your prospective boss just understands that people with extensive math, science or engineering tend to be much better programmers than "pure CS" types - that second degree will be a certification that may be the difference between getting an interview, or never hearing back from the company.

That said, I wouldn't invest more than a single semester in a second degree, and in retrospect I feel that you're better off if your second major is well apart from your first (I was a double major because they kept changing the course catalog and I often found myself closer to finishing one degree than the other). But if you're wrapping things up now and only need a 3 classes (out of 9?) to get the degree, go for it.

Yes. Please.

[splattertrousers]

I am a senior in college, majoring in computer science. I only need two more CS classes to finnish a BS. [...] So Here is the question to people out in the real world: Is it worth it to get a second degree?

Definitely go for it. I'd recommend an English degree.

From a recruiter...

[FortKnox]

FYI - Father is a VP of Human Resources, so I asked him.

A second degree is worth it if the career you are persuing requires heavy mathematics.
Reason? Pro side is obvious. A BS in math proves you have the math ability necessary for a job that requires heavy math usage.
Disadvantage? With extra degrees comes with extra expectation of a higher salary. This is why its a dumb idea to go straight to a grad degree right away. If I a BS in CS goes for the same job as a MS in CS (the job isn't complex programming, just run-of-the-mill programming), the BS is gonna get the job, cause he can do the same job as the MS, but you can pay him less. (sidenote - usually if your job requires a MS or PhD, they'll pay for you to do it. Its easier to go to school when you don't have to worry about paying off that loan!)

So, if you are going into graphic engine programming, or a company that makes CAD/other engineering tools, then the math major is a huge plus.

I have a minor in math, and, honestly, it never gave me any noticable edge.

Now, my side of the equation is that programming and math go hand-in-hand. You're much more likely to get the 'advantage' of the extra knowledge than the 'disadvantage' of a higher expected pay, so go for it!

I have two BS degrees

[EccentricAnomaly]

I have two bachelors degrees in Physics and in Aerospace Engineering. Employers only saw the one degree that they wanted and ignored the other. I have gained lots of valuable insights from taking classes in both majors, but I would have gained that from a minor in Physics as well.

If you want the 2nd degree, go for it... but it probably won't help much in getting a job. One degree is enough to get you through the door... after that degrees are just like merit badges.

"What is the value of a second major?"

[Wakko Warner]

Well, sometimes, when you've dropped a particularly sloppy deuce, you need more than one sheet to clean up.

- A.P.

Depends on the Degrees

[RhetoricalQuestion]

I have a double major in CS and English Writing. I've found this to be a huge advantage because my writing degree is proof of strong written communication skills. Plus, the fact that it's an unusual combination helps me stand out a little. When I decided to switch from CS-type work into a more business-oriented role, it showed both my ability to learn technical and non-technical subjects.

My (uninformed) opinion is that CS and Math will probably only give you an edge if you take a CS job that requires heavy mathematical skills.

However, if you enjoy your math courses and you want the extra degree, I don't see how it could hurt you. I could have just taken an English minor and saved myself a lot of stress, but I like having earned the extra degree.

Worth it

[m_evanchik]

I would say that the extra degree is worth it, especially if you decide to go onto graduate school in the future.

More importantly, the extra math credential is a great signal to others as to your qualifications in the subject. If you ever need a position that requires math credentials, that degree is many of orders of magnitude more important than just bullshitting about how many math courses you took.

I see the allure of taking it easy before you graduate, but I would recommend that you buckle down and get the extra qualifications and then maybe take off a little time after you graduate.

Generally, academic credentials are overrated, but for the minimum amount of extra work that you need for this one, I would go for it. The extra price you pay now, in terms of time and effort, may really pay off in the future.

Remember, employers generally don't look at your grades, so you don't need to excel in those final courses.

Just think of the extra hoops you'll need to jump through if you ever decide you want that math degree later on. Get it now and never worry about it again.

Also, having a CS and Math degree shows that you are more than just a code monkey. It shows that you can think abstractly on subjects and have an intellectual grounding in the fundamentals of computing, as well as a practical ability.

And once you graduate, go on a summer-long bender.

And for goodness' sake, don't ask for important advice from complete strangers online : )

I don't get this

[renehollan]

How can one possibly use courses as credit toward two degrees? Is is that different in the U.S. (compared to Canada)?

When I received my B.Comp.Sc. (honours), if I wanted a math degree on top of it, I'd have to spend another three years at it, and it would have been difficult since many of the required math courses already counted toward my honours specialization (basically ALL four minors at the same time: math, biz, engr., and "pure"). Of course, the specialization should not be confused with graduating "with honours" (i.e. magna or summa cum laude) as that was ALREADY a requirement to get the defree conferred.

In my case, I ended up continuing toward a M.Comp.Sc. graduate degree, and stopped short of the Ph.D. because then I'd be over-qualified for anything other than a teaching position (which I did not want).

It's late, my spelling sukz, and I'm going home.

Re:I don't get this

[renehollan]

You were at Concordia, though, and we all know all about Concordia

What is that supposed to mean? That Concordia was a poor university (McGill didn't have a Computer Science program at the time)? Or that they were just "different". If so, did the difference extend to all universities within Quebec (which would not surprise me)?

If you want to insult my alma mater, feel free -- I have a thick skin (and presently live in Texas, where nothing brings out the old 12ga faster than an insult).

It's YOUR money, it's YOUR life, USE it...

[dpbsmith]

I think it's a mistake to worry TOO much about how your college education will look to employers and/or grad schools. Your education is for YOU. You are fortunate enough to have four years to spend in college--use them.

You might as well study what's interesting to YOU, because at least you know (or will find out!) what's interesting to YOU. Whereas advice about what's interesting or valuable to others is about as reliable as stock market tips.

People I know who have trained for specific occupations "because the nation needs" teachers or scientists or nurses or whatever have almost uniformly found that by the time they were finished there was a glut of teachers or scientists or nurses.

I remember the darned premeds when I was a teaching assistant in zoology. They were so annoying--and they were ALL spending so much time and effort trying to game the system. Instead of simply taking the courses the med schools said they wanted, and using the rest of their time on subjects of interest to themselves, they were all big on taking courses that med schools supposedly "liked to see" without saying so. It was all BS. (Well, at any rate, it was not MD). Oh, and some informal checking later on with people I knew IN med school revealed that they HADN'T taken all these "like-to-see" courses.

Life will focus you soon enough on some fairly narrow area of concentration. Take whatever time you've got to mess around in an unstructured way, while you've got it.

Oh,yes, and this is also your chance to try out the campus radio station, or the drama club, or the outing club... these sorts of things are college opportunities that don't have any close equivalents in "the real world."

Oh, and some restrained, moderate attention to bridge, billiards, sex, partying, and computer hacking can also be very worthwhile.

I got a minor that way

[bluGill]

I looked at my transcript at registration for spring quarter and found I needed 8 credits to graduate, I had all my CS courses, and I need 8 math credits for a math minor. It seemed like a no brainer so I registered for those two classes. (The next day I added my credits corretly and discovered that I could graduate then, but I decided to take the minor anyway as it would still take most of a quarter for graduation paperwork to go through I may as well take classes).

I don't regret taking those two classes. They were fun in the way only math classes can be. As my dad remarked after graduation, the announce announced very few minors and double majors that night.

As for usefullness? I'm not sure. I've applied for a few jobs that list math skills, but I've not even gotten in the door. If nothing else though, I figgure it gives me a fall back, but I'm not sure where to.

Can you get a minor instead of a major? (I was missing some classes for a major that I did not want to take) It might mean less classes. I would not recomend that you postpone graduation, but if you have some room in the schedual why not. Don't forget that there are other classes. I considered taking some bible history classes instead, perhaps you have similear interests you would be better off going for.

Remember you can go back to school after you are done with the CS degree, and often your boss will pick up continuing education classes. This is one good reason not to get the major. Warning though, some companies insist continuing education relate to your job (which a math degree may or may not count for), so if you have someone in mind find out now.