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Patents for the Little People?
_ph1ux_ asks: "I have an idea that i would like to patent. I have called several patent attorney's in the San Francisco Bay Area and inquired about the costs associated with doing a patent search and filing. I was quoted a flat fee for the search by some, ranges by others - and some more sound sounding advice from others. Some attorney's want $450 for the search and a range of $3-6,000 for the filing - with up to six months before they are ready to just file the application for you.
I have been researching on USPTO website to see if there are any pre-existing patents that cover my idea now for several days, and so far have found none. In the past I was able to quickly locate existing patents that thwarted my previous patent attempts - so this time it looks promising. My personal feelings for attorneys and lawyers aside - I want to know what have other slashdotters done with regards to pursuing patents, specifically if it is at all possible for an IANAL to successfully apply for a patent (cheaply)? Can you tell me what other avenues there are for me online or otherwise, while not giving away a large stake in my invention?"
*Whips out paper and pen*
So what exactly does this product do? Please be as specific as possible, and email me any drawings you have of said product, including highly detailed autocad drawings.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
I have an idea that i would like to patent.
Traditionally, you couldn't patent ideas, only implementations...
Of course, the USPTO has ignored that for at least a decade...
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
I strongly recommend going to to do searches on trademarks for your idea.
Also, I like "Patent It Yourself", which is how I got my patent application filed. It's a really good text. Also, if you need representation, talk to the guys at GrayCary. They are a good bunch of folks, and they will do some consulting gratis and defer payment......
The Dopester
"Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
You might be able to find an attorney that will do the work without a flat fee in exchange for a percentage of the revenue stream created by the patent. We have a family friend whose father was a patent attorney and did *very well*, thank you by taking this approach on occasion.
The usual warnings about finding an ethical attorney (an oxymoron, I know) would likely apply even more in this situation, though.
This is nice and timely! I've been thinking about this myself lately, and I've wondered something different: In todays highly litigatious society, are you opening yourself up for alot of hassle in filing a patent? No question that getting your origonal idea locked in before anybody else is a good thing, but what happens when somebody challanges you, or you have to challange somebody else? It may be a remote possiblity, but are 'the little guys' assuming lots of personal risk in basically defying the world to capitalize on their idea? You find a lawyer with a flat rate to file your patent, then what? Where are you going to get the tens of thousands it would likely cost to defend your patent in court? Did the flat rate cover him actually reading the patent to determine if it's overbroad or worse, not broad enough? There seems to be alot to think about with a patent, especially if you don't have in house counsel at your disposal. This is a pretty glib way to think about it, putting patents in the category of those nice things that protect big business but are out of reach of the little guys.
"These people look deep within my soul and assign me a number based on the order in which I joined" --Homer re:
On the other hand, not everyone has the right skills and mindset to search for prior art well, which is important.
Similarly he says (and I sure believe) that it is very important to write your patent very very clearly, and to have very clear diagrams, because if the patent is ever contested, you want to be able to convince a non-technical jury as easily as possible.
That kind of clarity of writing and creating diagrams is not all that common, so using professional help might be in order.
Then again, not all professionals are all that great at clarity, either! Many patents' writing suck, IMHO.
Professional Wild-Eyed Visionary
If its primary purpose is to decorate the wall of your den and impress people at Superbowl parties, then by all means, do it yourself. If you actually intend to base a company around the technology covered by the patent, then you're deluding yourself if you try to draft and prosecute the patent yourself. I can tell you, as a former patent examiner and as a practicing patent attorney, it's a very few lucky inventors (or those who have had lots of involvement in the patenting process at the corporate level) who get any type of claim coverage worth having.
In fact, there are so many potential pitfalls and minefields, the Patent Office will generally recommend that you get an attorney or agent once they realize that you're pro se (doing it yourself). It's just too easy to draft a specification that is nonenabling (in which case you've wasted your filing fee), to draft claims that are too narrow or exclude the commercial embodiment of the invention, or narrow the claims during prosecution in a way that creates an estoppel (stops you from claiming that someone who makes insubstantial changes to his device to avoid you claims nevertheless is an infringer).
Try working with smaller firms, and look for firms that use patent agents, rather than attorneys. These are people who have passed the exam qualifying them to prosecute patent applications, but generally are paid less (and billed out for less per hour) than attorneys. Then let an attorney do the actual prosecution, since they tend to be more familiar with issues that relate to litigation, like file history estoppel, etc.
There are so many little getchas in the process, and knowing the langauge and how to dot the i's and cross the t's is extremely important, if you want to have a robust patent.
Additionally, while you can use the patent search systems to see about patents that are issued - patent lawyers have their own mechanisms and can often do a much better job of the process.
Remember, this is about protecting your intellectual property and idea - you don't want to have a mistake or it will possible be thrown out or challenged (which can be very very costly). If you spend a bit more money upfront to get the job done correctly, and then something happens, you have additional fall-back to pursue.
All patent attorneys I have ever dealt with have always told us what they wanted in the way of write-ups, which we provide. Then they came back to us with EXTREMELY DETAILED questions. It's quite extrodinary to see a non-technical person do it - but they do. And I think that's the point... because the patent process is LESS about what your patenting and MORE about making sure it's patented CORRECTLY. So they seek definitions, and they use those definitions to ensure that your unique, and if your not unique, they get you to redefine it until you are. A pretty valuable service if you ask me.
Remember too, it's all about the CLAIMS. And every patent I've ever read are VERY VERY difficult to read and understand. Usually patents take many readings, and pouring over the claims to understand what they mean in relation to each other. I seriously doubt if you have the ability to read the claims in the same way a patent attorney does - since it's in their language, not yours (unless your a lawyer ;).
One final thought... because you are the inventor I submit to you that you are too close to your invention to be impartial about what it takes to describe your invention properly so that it is protected. What you would tend to fluff off as not be competiting or infringing, others may differ with you. It should be invaluable to you to have a professional second opinion from someone who knows how to do it.
And don't go for the cheapest one you can find either ;)
Aloha
1) Write it down. Date it. Sign it.
2) File a preliminary patent application. It's only $60 apx? Beware that whe nyour patent issues this preliminary patent can be viewed by the public. 3) Have two people you trust AND who will understand it read it and sign & date the document
4) Existing patent are a good thing. Yu will need to demonstrate to the PTO that you idea is close, but not the same. Do not hide any prior art or close to prior art. The reason is that should these other patent holders see your work they will say, "hey, this looks close we'd better go after them." If you patent lists these their patent you can say, "hey, the PTO looked at you patents and said they are different." The more "close, but no cigar" that you can find the better.
5) Go ahead and do the leg work. Look at patents from IBM, etc for good examples, but beware even IBM files some stinkers. Even write it. Remember you pay by the claim.
6) At least pay for a couple of hours of a patent lawer's time to "proof-read it." You shouold be able to find a solo patent lawer who will be flexable.
7) Are you sure that you need a patent?
I was just going over this with a coworker... I'd suggest filing a provisional application to claim priority and protect your ownership rights, but then try to find someone with deeper pockets to follow it up with a formal application though a patent lawyer. Like others I advise against DIY unless you alread have some experience with the process as there are lots of little gotchas.
Unlike a "real" application there are no formal requirements for text or drawings for provisional applications except that they ultimately fit in an 8.5x11. All you need is a cover sheet and an $80 fee if you do it yourself.
Here are a few decent links:
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa061701 a.htm
http://www.bpmlegal.com/provapp.htmlThis one is also pretty decent and a bit more DIY info http://www.frompatenttoprofit.com/provisional_pate nt_aps.htm
Finally, the software mentioned there seems useful... http://www.patentwizard.com/ and so are their FAQs http://www.patentwizard.com/htmls/support.htm, but if you were to go that route, you'd be out $580 for the software, filing and a flat fee review by their attorneys.
Various universities have invention disclosure forms posted on the www (see e.g. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe =UTF-8&q=invention.disclosure.forms) That ask all the right questions. Look at some of these and adapt them for your needs, this will drive you to pout all the information together in the right form and send it to the PTO with the cover sheet and your $80.
Balam
Before you turn over your invention to unicron, you should definitely have your lawyer write a non-disclosure agreement. If you disclose your invention to the general public, you quickly become ineligible for a patent in the United States. Only something that's currently a trade secret can be patented.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Generally, the PTO's database is fairly difficult to search from the outside. While I work on the Trademark side of the Office, I can't imagine the Patent searching of the Office's database is easier.
Additionally, (most) attorneys know the language the PTO is looking for, as well as how to word your initial claim so that it is broad enough to cover everything. You don't have the experience to do that. It would be akin to asking a typist to set-up your network.
The USPTO makes it quite easy to file a patent or a trademark on-line for the average citizen (a pro se applicant). It is part of the Office's "strategic plan". However, I can tell you that the law for both patents and trademarks is full of little rules and requirements. Well over half of the applications I see on the Trademark side end up being abandoned 6 months later. I'd estimate that at least 80% of the pro se filed applications wind up abandoned for one reason or another. Unfortunately many of those end up abandoning because the applicant gets a long Office Action (i.e., a letter) from an examiner that has some fairly simple requirements that sound complicated becauase of the poorly worded form paragraphs the Office uses and the myriad of statutes that are cited.
At the same time, it never hurts to file and see what happens. The filing fees are a little steep, but if your basic searching has looked good, then maybe it will only require a little bit of phenagling to get it through. Chances are you will not get an allowance straight off the bat... it rarely happens on the Trademark side. I can only guess that it happens even less on the Patent side due to the complexities of the application.
Of course, being an attorney and one who works at the Office, I have to recommend that you get a patent attorney. 3 to 6,000 bucks is on the cheap side compared to what I've heard (over 10,000 bucks for a patent filing). But, one tip if you do file is that the USPTO's response time is generally six (6) months. There are exceptions so check the rules (Statute, CFR (Code of Federal Regulations), and MPEP (Manual of Patent Examining Procedure)... all available at the Office's website). If your application abandons, the fees to revive it are very high on the patent side (1,000 bucks). That's peanuts to a company like Dow or Microsoft, but a lot of beans for a solo inventor.
Finally, if you file yourself and it ends up looking good, but you get stuck, you can always go to an attorney at that point (That happens a lot, at least on the Trademark side... again, can't imagine it is much different on the patent side). Again though, I gotta recommend that you get an attorney... sorry if I sound like an attorney, but, well... I am one!
Good luck! Hope it works out for ya!
-A
1) It's not worth doing a patent search. Most of the larger companies do not. If you've done a perfunctory search and it's not obviously covered by prior art, then go for it! Worst case, the patent office tells you about some prior art & you adjust your application to take it into account (this almost always happens anyway).
2) It's hard, but very possible, to do it yourself. Read a lot. Look at other patents. See how it's done. If you value your time highly, you won't save money (since it's so time consuming to do right), but it's interesting and fun--plus, if you're student/unemployed/etc, you might not value your time so highly & it could be worthwhile. Also FYI, the patent office *likes* indpendant filers (by all reports), and will go out of their way to help you.
3) Think hard about why you want a patent. Patents are useful if you're going to sell an idea, but most companies won't look at patented ideas (lest you claim later that they copied you). Patents are useful for protecting a new business, but that assumes that there's no other good way of accomplishing the thing your invention accomplishes. And patents are good resume fodder. If none of these apply, you might not want/need a patent and you can save yourself some effort.
4) Patent applications are almost always rejected the first time around. Don't sweat it, it's just part of the process.
5) Even if you do hire an attorney, doing your homework & writing it up well will save you money. Show him what you've got on your first visit to the office so you can get an professional opinion, and if it's in good shape, that's less hours you need to be billed. $200/hour attorneys are happy to transcribe your napkins for you, but it's usually more cost effective to do it yourself.
6) It always takes a long, long, long time. The first patent I filed for, 5 years ago, is just now about to be issued. 3 years is very typical. 7) DON'T pay for anything other than a licensed patent attorney to file your patent. "Invention Submission Bureaus" and their ilk are just there to take your fees.
8) If you can't monetize your patent yourself, it's almost worthless. The only other thing you could do is sit on it for years, then sue someone who accidently infringes on it (so-called "Submarining"), and that's just wrong (to my way of thinking). Use a patent to protect a business, but don't expect to build a business on a patent. Hope this helps. Good luck! --dan
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Umm.. That only works for COPYRIGHT.
With copyright, if you mail yourself, via Registered Mail, an envelope-sealed (can't use tape - what if it's an old envelope and a new text?) master copy, you can establish a date of existance and then be able to sue those that violate your copyright without having to do anything else.
With patents, prior art requires much more than that. An envelope sealed away doesn't count because to count as prior art, typically the application or product must be public in the sense that it is available to some group capable of acquiring the product.
Example. I make Guilty Widgets, and make them for the purpose of fulfilling some government contract, and my GW's are new products with potential uses that I can't see but could revolutionize Cog manipulation. I don't patent it, but it is mentioned in a maintenance manual for the Armed Forces Joint Strike Attack Bomber's Anti-Pixelization and Pizza Delivery System. (Don't ask. It works. Instead of making a lot of dust when things go boom.. you get the picture.)
Now, 2Lt. Charles "Hind-Leg" Williams, an expert pilot but disqualified from military aviation due to an odd congenital birth defect, is reading through these manuals and, lo and behold, comes across my GW and sees the potential for cog manipulation. If he steals my idea nearly verbatim and patents it, I can claim prior art on it because I have the profound mountain of evidence that shown I made the GW's before he did.
Example 2. I make The Burger Flipper. It's two pans stacked on top of each other so I don't have to use a spatula because I'm a lazy bastard. While I've got the envelope with the idea in my basement collecting dust alongside my Pet Thong and the Lava Hoop, I watch a Sci-Fi marathon of The Thing and see soemthing oddly like my burger flipper advertized for the low low price of three easy payments of $19.99. But wait, they include a batter pourer and a book of recipes that was won off eBay for no extra charge.. and if I call in the next ten minutes they'll cut off one inch from my waist with DextDiet ZQ. If I try to claim prior art, the judge will laugh in my face because there was no way that the other guys could have seen my idea.
btw: IANALBIWL2P1OTV.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
The first question is, how good is your idea? Does it solve a problem that people need solved? What's your next step after the patent is filed? Is it time to head out to 3000 Sand Hill Road and talk to the venture capitalists, or are you thinking of writing letters to manufacturers in hopes of a reply? Is there a business in this? How big a business? Can you get a piece of that business?
My patents are in areas where others had tried and failed to solve some problem, and there existed literature (and failed products) to demonstrate this. If you have something like that, getting a patent is relatively easy, and it's likely to be worth something.
Patenting your "idea" is easy, but probably pointless. I always had to bring things up to the point where I had a shrinkwrapped product before money came in. (In some cases, the shrinkwrapping was done at a local copy shop. But the box looked good. And the software inside worked.) A killer demo may be sufficient for some ideas. But an untried paper idea has to be really, really good to be worth anything.
Get and read the Nolo books. Even if you're going to use a lawyer, you need to understand the patent process thoroughly.
Find a lawyer you get along with. They have to understand what you've done. Here in Silicon Valley, there are plenty of patent lawyers, and legal business is slow right now. Get a price quote for the whole job before you start.
If you can't write well, it's going to cost you more. I always write my own specifications and let the lawyer review them. The lawyer writes the claims, which I then review. Claim drafting is a technical subject, but you need to understand it well enough to comprehend what is and isn't infringement.
Find out what word processing software your patent attorney uses. You're going to be sending documents back and forth, and you need compatibility. This also applies to drawings.
Forget "invention brokers". The whole "invention broker" industry is a scam. In Silicon Valley, where almost anybody who's any good technically has a patent or two, there are no invention brokers. Now that invention brokers are required by Federal law to disclose their success rates (which are around 0.01%) up front, that scam is dying.
Just file your patent. Worry about prior art and all that other stuff later. That's what everybody else does...
Can't you people read? He's patenting little people. Then he's gonna sue the crap out of that guy on the Lucky Charms box and get his pot of gold.