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When Do You Really Need a Lawyer?
"Clearly, once I've been served with legal papers, a lawyer is necessary. But I'm guessing that there are situations where having a lawyer before it gets to that point would be helpful. I'm interested in some general guidelines for when I should pick up the phone and call a lawyer. I'm especially interested in tales of 'I waited to long and got burned' as well as 'I got a lawyer so early it was smooth sailing'. Like most people, I make a decent living, but I cannot afford high legal bills for very long.
For those who are interested, the CEO in question decided to simply report the incident to the FBI. My guess is that the Feds logged the complaint for their statistics and then dropped the matter. However, the brush with someone with enough money and power to drain me financially has left me distinctly shaken..."
...it's a Clue. Also, your situation might be covered by a book or article at http://www.nolo.com, which is an excellent resource for self-help legal stuff.
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You can find a good resource here.
John
The drops of water don't know themselves to be a river; and yet the river flows.
Lawyers will usually not charge you for an initial consultation. If you are upfront with them, tell them your situation, they'll usually spend 10 or 20 minutes with you and decide if you might need their services or not. If they say you do, they'll most likely ask for a retainer of some sort. Depending on how serious the lawyer believes your situation to be, it could be between $1,000 and $5,000. On top of the retainer, you have to pay the fees they bill until you "close your account" with them.
Some smaller lawyers will just bill against the retainer, while larger firms will require payment in addition to the retainer, but will return the retainer in full at your request when you close an account with them.
Most lawyers charge between $150-$300 an hour unless it is a case where they believe you will win a settlement (in this case, it doesn't seem so; however, you might be able to get lawyer fees if you need to sue if the CEO sues).
IANAL, but I'm married to one and had to use some for my old business.
Just go look up a lawyer or get a referal (highly recommended) and see what they say. They'll know better than any of us on slashdot (unless they are lawyers).
TossableDigits.com: Temporary Phone Numb
Someone with both him in their Address book and the CEO in their address book got the Klez virus. The Klez virus looks in the currently infected victim's address book for an e-mail address to pretend to be from and sends a message to another address in that address book.
As a well-established corner of copyright law, you do not own the correspondence you receive from others. You do own the physical media, but you do not have a right to broadcast or republish the material without the author's permission. Unless the author has done something so illegal (e.g. sending a death threat or whatever) that you can be certain of prevailing, and you need the public exposure because you have no other course of action, you should never publish correspondence you receive from others without their permission. It may seem ridiculous, but it is completely illegal almost everywhere on Earth.
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...is often the best defense.
Here's what I would do: write a letter to the CEO in question. Don't rant or rave, but explain the nature of the Klez virus in non-technical terms. Attach a description from one of the major anti-virus manufacturers as proof of your assertions.
Then drop the bomb. WITHOUT WHINING (that is VERY important), and without OVERDRAMATIZING IT (also VERY important), warn him that his actions may constitute libel and/or slander, and that any further attempts to harm your reputation will be delt with through legal means.
Try something like this: "Finally, I have tried to be patient. I hope that this explanation has convinced you that I have no role whatsoever in your virus infestation. I know that not everyone is technical, and things like this can be difficult to understand. However, it's a small industry and I will not allow my reputation to be damaged through libellous and/or slanderous accusations. Cease and desist immediately or I will be forced to take legal action."
You might also think about filing a complaint with the FBI that the guy knowingly filed a false accusation.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Depending on the laws of your state he may be claiming you have committed a felony. I am being absolutely serious about this. Do not talk to the police at all with out a lawyer present. No matter what they say. they will lie to you, decive you and try and trick you. You make think the charges asinine .. but dont laugh at them .. and make certain you document everything. How do I know all of this ..? Because I was hit with a pair of computer related felonies and didnt take legal action quickly enough. Talk to a lawyer Immediately. Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they are not really after you. feel free to contact me directly.
Robert K. Brumbelow
rkbrumbelow@go-ssi.com
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
Actually you're on to something. The crux of the CEO's position is the fact that he believes From: headers are gospel. If the tech has the ability to forge headers, then why the hell would he send the virus-infected email from his own address? It would make the foolishness of the CEO's conclusion apparent.
Error: PANTS NOT FOUND. Press <F1> to continue.
Just because someone's a CEO doesn't mean they have more money, power, lawyers (or brains, apparently) than you.
All it takes to become a CEO of an S-Corp or an LLC is to send your $50-300 plus paperwork, depending on your state.
I'm actually the CEO of a small web development boutique (read: 3 partners, a few freelancers, no employees) and have been threatened with a couple of lawsuits and the like in the past. We have very little capital (particularly in the current economic climate) to defend ourselves legally -- so we take the talking route until either the issue goes away (almost all the time) or things get verifiably ugly (lawyers/legal documents appear).
The trick is to talk politely but formally (read: certified mail, business-style) directly to the other individual involved, and keep records of every single piece of correspondence -- at this point you're trying to keep the odds of actually getting in a lawsuit to a minimum.
You explain your complete lack of culpability in the incident (including whatever documentation from Symantec/CERN/etc.), and state (FIRMLY) that you take the *threat* of a lawsuit very, very seriously and if necessary you will pursue that route in kind to reclaim lost time, money and any slander/libel damages that may be due to you.
More often than not (in my experience), when people threaten this type of action, they're looking for easy money in an out-of-court settlement -- or they're looking to scare you into submission (completing a project for free, etc.) Being firm and standing up to these kind of idiots gives them pause.
Obviously, taking this route, you need follow-through. The moment a lawyer or legal paperwork rears their respective ugly heads, all bets are off. Get thee a lawyer and be merciless.
Just keep in mind:
1. Just because they talk big doesn't mean they are
2. If they've got money to bring a frivolous lawsuit against you for something that they could verify easily with a google search -- they've got the money to pay out counterdamages. Most lawyers would be willing to take the case with very little retainer.
</IANAL>
I am a lawyer. If you've actually been served with a complaint and have no prior experience with this stuff, I'd advise you to contact a lawyer.
You have a fixed amount of time to file a formal 'Reply' to the complaint you were served with. If you fail to file a Reply within the time limit, a 'default judgment' can be filed against you, basically finding you liable for all the causes of action stated in the complaint. (While 'default judgments' can sometimes be set aside if you appear later and give a good excuse for not having filed a reply, you definitely don't want to have that happen.)
So, first thing, is definitely make sure that you file a Reply within the time limit. The only reason for not doing that would be if you can get the plaintiff to drop the case before then, but even then you're going to have to make sure that they file a dismissal of their case within the time period.
I'd get a lawyer, if I were you. But before doing that, I would give the CEO's lawyer a quick phone call. His or her name and number will be on the Complaint that you were served with. Explain that virus emails almost always have forged emails, and give him some reference to a site on the web or a book that documents that so he or she can look it up. The CEO's lawyer is likely to be more rational about this than the CEO, who may be emotionally upset by the virus attack and looking for someone to blame. If the only evidence thay have against you is the forged email address in the from: line -- and if you can convince the CEO's lawyer that those lines are always forged -- then the CEO's lawyer should recommend to the CEO that the case against you be dropped (probably "dismissed with prejudice" so that it can be refiled in the future if they discover more evidence against you).
In talking to the CEO's lawyer, I wouldn't be very forthcoming with information, if he or she starts asking you lots of questions. The main thing would be to just explain to them that virus emails typically have forged headers, and to point him to some authority to back that up. Also, don't lose your cool. Keep things on a calm and rational level. If the lawyer turns out to be an asshole, you may not make any progress with this step. But still avoid using your cool. You don't want people to get emotionally involved in this thing. Lawyers aren't supposed to get emotionally involved, but some will, so look out and don't let that happen. You don't want to make anybody on the other side mad; it could lead to them doing irrational things (prosecuting a crappy case) and causing you even more trouble.
If you do contact the CEO's lawyer and aren't successful in persuading him or her to get the case dismissed, then you should hire a lawyer to take over and file your Reply. You won't want to wait until the last minute for this; contact a lawyer at least two or three weeks before the Reply is due, if not sooner. Your lawyer could prepare and file your reply, and take over in trying to convince the other side to dismiss the case without going further, after you explain the virus-email-forging thing to him or her.
I should include the usual CYA stuff that lawyers have to do when they say stuff like this in a public forum: the above doesn't constitute legal advice. But it is what I would do if I'd been served with a complaint like that and I didn't know anything about maneuvering within the legal system.
Only if the work was registered at the time of the infringement.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
-1, Idiot
You are not familiar with Klez, apparently.
I've gotten sick of replying to people who think I've sent them a worm. I've drafted the following and use it as a quick copy-paste solution to this annoyance.
Note that I use the term virus in my form letter as most if not all of these people don't know the difference between a virus and a worm.
---------
Did you receive a virus-infected email which appeared to have come from me? If so, the return address of the email you received was spoofed (meaning the email didn't really come from me).
One of the "features" of many of these viruses is that they use fake reply-to information so you can't easily figure out who has sent you a virus-infected email.
I assure you that none of my computers are infected with anything. I haven't sent you any viruses. These types of viruses are spread by certain email clients running on Windows computers. I use neither Windows computers nor the email clients which are susceptible to such skullduggery.
If you did receive an email with a virus attached which appeared to come from me I suggest you inspect the long (full) header of the email to find out who really sent it to you. If you have a technical support department please contact one of your support people and have them explain the difference between short headers and long headers.
---------
"Clean up the air and treat the animals fair" - Captain Beefheart
The FBI is not I repeat NOT a reactive agency. Unless there is already an investigation going in regards to someone purposefully spreading viruses, which there isn't given all the other shit going on in the world, nothing is going to happen.
IANAL. But I do work for a company that does computer forensics, network security evaluations, and the like, and several of the other employees are in law enforcement. I know a little about what goes on in the world.
IANAL. But I purchased some stolen equipment (unintentionally!) in 1999 and got acquainted with the FBI React task force from San Jose, CA. They're paranoid nutjobs from what I saw of them, but you'd be amazed at the five and six digit fraud cases they'd ignore because "We're not a reactive agency".
A virus? How much damage dollar wise did it do? Less than $5k I bet and that is the bare minimum that gets their attention.
IANAL. But I've been the victim of an intrustion that actually got investigated. I got a letter about the crackers about six months after an RH6.2 box got had with a bind exploit - that was about five years ago and I don't think they've ever done anything about it.
So, that is that. Called the FBI? Big deal. Got his lawyer to send you a letter? Ignore it and wait for the suit. Got a real lawsuit? Get N+1 forensic experts, me included if you can get another story posted here, and we'll help you get a *very* favorable judgement.
"Because this worm does use a randomly chosen address that it finds on an infected computer as the "From:" address, numerous cases have been reported in which users of uninfected computers receive complaints that they have sent an infected message to someone else. For example, Linda Anderson is using a computer that is infected with W32.Klez.E@mm; Linda is not using a antivirus program or does not have current virus definitions. When W32.Klez.E@mm performs its emailing routine, it finds the email address of Harold Logan. It inserts Harold's email address into the "From:" line of an infected email that it then sends to Janet Bishop. Janet then contacts Harold and complains that he sent her infected email, but when Harold scans his computer, Norton AntiVirus does not find anything--as would be expected--because his computer is not infected."
source
I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
- Stop talking to him.
- Give him your mailing address and demand that all further communications (especially those of the "I'm going to sue you" variety) be done in writing (no, e-mail doesn't count). Certified mail is preferable in this case.
- If he DOES mail you something, make sure you put it somewhere safe. It may come in handy later.
- While you really don't need a lawyer until you see a piece of paper that says "I'm going to sue you" bearing his signature, they are handy to have around to make sure you don't write something you shouldn't in a letter to him. If you must write him a letter, at the very least make sure to read, re-read, and re-re-read what you wrote before you mail it. Avoid things like personal attacks, admitting any wrong-doing and phrases that can be read as "I'm going to sue you."
Generally speaking, as soon as he says "I'm going to sue you," say nothing to him other than giving him your mailing address. Whether or not you need a lawyer depends on his follow-through and if he actually puts "I'm going to sue you" on paper.Beyond that, if you end up needing a lawyer, I hear that talking to the local bar association is handy. You're supposed to tell them how you need a lawyer and they can reccomend those that specialize in that department.
Actualy, in many but not all cases the bringer of a lawsuit with no merit can be countersued for the legal fee's. It may not be worth it all the time, but america has a very similar system to your outlined fishy one.
In a case like this, where you know it's just a big misunderstanding and all you want is to make it go away, why not talk to a mediator? Mediators are trained to help disputants work out their problems outside of court. And in the event that it does later end up in court, nothing you say during a confidential mediation can be used as evidence in court.
Often you can get mediation services for free; for example, the Los Angeles City Attourney's office provides free mediators for any dispute in which at least one party lives in LA county. Try a google search; you may be able to find one that will handle your case.
"It sure was strange to see something on Usenet about me that didn't involve Klingon gang rape." -- Wil Wheaton
Do not even *think* of speaking to the other lawyer without representation. They are the masters of spin and they will take anything you say and turn it against you.
That's fine in general, but in this specific situation what can you possibly say to him that can be used against you? If all it takes to clear this up is a phone call and a link to www.mcafee.com, how can you pass that up?
-a
How to rationalize theft.
If you can afford it, find a competent attorney and sign a retainer aggreement. They come in several types. The most probable type you would want is one where you could pay for a specified amount of legal services up front, for those "Is this something that I should be worried about?" calls. You pay the lawyer up front and they answer the phone whenever you call, they don't need to be worried about getting paid because they already have been. Sometimes you can have as part of this aggreement that you will be refunded a portion of the unused ratainer.
Another type of retainer is the type where you pay a fee for the attorney to always be available for you, then you pay a reduced hourly fee for their services on top of the retainer.
I am sure there are other types of retainer and/or prepaid arrangements out there that could add piece of mind. Call your local bar association to find out, the larger bar associations usually pretty good educational and referral services.
Wow, several hundred posts on this. I may repeat something someone has already said (I lack the time to read all 400 predecessors). Apologies if I do.
Good advice for anyone who appreciates or fears an imminent legal attack is to not only save all correspondence (like someone above did mention) but to also create a log of all relevant incidents. Times and dates are key. Treat your log like a journal - it will prove indispensable should anything occur.
As for when you should get a lawyer, that depends really on what you hope to accomplish. If you simply want to fend off any attacks, I'd say wait until you get a letter from the CEO's lawyer, or you're served with something, or the CEO wants to meet with you. Until that point, a log and a record of correspondence will protect you fine. However, if you want (or need) to take a more aggressive defense position (for example if your reputation is at stake and his mere accusation is damaging), then you can get one right now and threaten an "abuse of process" claim or a defamation claim. Threatening someone with a lawsuit without grounds can give you a cause of action in certain situations. Abuse of process can be used either as a preemptive strike or as an effective counterattack.
As for posting stuff online, I'd recommend against it, as it won't accomplish anything constructive and you may end up shooting yourself in the foot (for example, if you accidently post something sensitive that would otherwise be covered by attorney-client privilege, posting it will dissolve that privilege).
I'm sure this is too much information, but we lawyers are prone to talk more than we really need to.
J. Thomasson
If you ever you wonder whether you might need a lawyer, you probably do.
I'm serious. For most people, this is a seldom-to-never occurance. But when you're in doubt, just spend the $50 for a half-hour consultation and find out.
ObAnecdote: I was recently fired for a really dumb reason. Was it legal? I didn't know. $50 and half an hour later I'd gotten a legal opinion that yes, it was a really dumb reason, but no, there was no legal recourse. Heck, it was worth the $50 just to keep from sitting up at night wondering, "Should I have sued those bastards?"
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.