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SETI to Upgrade Software, Telescope
Professor_Quail writes "Space.com reports that SETI@home is planning to transfer it's operations from Arecibo to another telescope in Australia, where they say lies an increased chance of finding extra-terrestrials. The Australian telescope is more powerful, with a wider view of the sky; scientists are betting that this new telescope will also help find signs of 'shriveling' black holes."
From .au as well
Go Speedy aliens go !
fp dork
fp
First Post!!!!!!
Hey, I knew people thought those Shrimp-on-the-Barbie commercials were annoying, but now we aren't even dignifying Aussies by calling them criminals anymore?!
They already know where they live...
Take me to your leader
GOATSE.INFO
Parkes is the radio telescope that stared in the movie "The Dish" which describes when it was used to receive the transmissions of the first moon landing.
The Flat-out Truth:
Earth Orbits? Moon Landings?
A Fraud! Says This Prophet
The idea of a spinning globe is only a conspiracy of error that Moses, Columbus, and FDR all fought...
Copyright 1980 Robert J. Schadewald
Reprinted from Science Digest, July 1980
"The facts are simple," says Charles K. Johnson, president of the International Flat Earth Research Society. "The earth is flat."
As you stand in his front yard, it is hard to argue the point. From among the Joshua trees, creosote bushes, and tumbleweeds surrounding his southern California hillside home, you have a spectacular view of the Mojave Desert. It looks as flat as a pool table. Nearly 20 miles to the west lies the small city of Lancaster; you can see right over it. Beyond Lancaster, 20 more miles as the cueball rolls, the Tehachepi Mountains rise up from the desert floor. Los Angeles is not far to the south.
Near Lancaster, you see the Rockwell International plant where the Space Shuttle was built. To the north, beyond the next hill, lies Edwards Air Force Base, where the Shuttle was tested. There, also, the Shuttle will land when it returns from orbiting the earth. (At least, that's NASA's story.)
"You can't orbit a flat earth," says Mr. Johnson. "The Space Shuttle is a joke--and a very ludicrous joke."
His soft voice carries conviction, for Charles Johnson is on the level. He believes that the main purpose of the space program is to prop up a dying myth--the myth that the earth is a globe.
"Nobody knows anything about the true shape of the world," he contends. "The known, inhabited world is flat. Just as a guess, I'd say that the dome of heaven is about 4,000 miles away, and the stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston."
As shown in a map published by Johnson, the known world is as circular and as flat as a phonograph record. The North Pole is at the center. At the outer edge lies the southern ice, reputed to be a wall 150 feet high; no one has ever crossed it, and therefore what lies beyond is unknown.
The sun and moon, in the Johnson version, are only about 32 miles in diameter. They circle above the earth in the vicinity of the equator, and their apparent rising and setting are tricks of perspective, like railroad tracks that appear to meet in the distance. The moon shines by its own light and is not eclipsed by the earth. Rather, lunar eclipses are caused by an unseen dark body occasionally passing in front of the moon.
Johnson's beliefs are firmly grounded in the Bible. Many verses of the Old Testament imply that the earth is flat, but there's more to it than that. According to the New Testament, Jesus ascended up into heaven.
"The whole point of the Copernican theory is to get rid of Jesus by saying there is no up and no down," declares Johnson. "The spinning ball thing just makes the whole Bible a big joke."
Not the Bible but Johnson's own common sense allowed him to see through the globe myth while he was still in grade school. He contends that sensible people all over the world, not just Bible believers, realize that the earth really is flat.
"Wherever you find people with a great reservoir of common sense," he says, "they don't believe idiotic things such as the earth spinning around the sun. Reasonable, intelligent people have always recognized that the earth is flat."
He pauses for a sip of coffee, his eyes sparkling with animation. At 56, Charles Johnson is a bearded, distinguished-looking man who drinks coffee seemingly by the gallon. He chain-smokes, hand-rolling cigarettes so skillfully that they seem factory made. Unlike the stereotypical prophet, he has a wry sense of humor and a booming laugh. Fond of plays on words, he consistently pronounces Nicolaus Koppernigk's Latinized surname as "co-pernicious."
The Flat Earth Society's presidency descended upon Charles Johnson in accord with the last wishes of its founder, Samuel Shenton, an Englishman who died in 1971. The society, which will round out a quarter-century next year, is a spiritual inheritor of the Universal Zetetic Society, which flourished in England in the last century.
The cosmos of the Zetetics.
Picture © 1992 by Robert Schadewald.
Under Johnson's full-time presidency, the society's paid-up membership has grown from a few persons to a few hundred. Membership is open to anyone who is regarded as sincerely seeking the truth; prospective members must sign a statement agreeing never to defame the society. Part of the $10 annual dues pays for a subscription to the Flat Earth News, a marvelously outspoken four-page tabloid quarterly with an editorial style reminiscent of 19th-century rural journalism.
Johnson's office is barely controlled chaos. Books, papers, and files are everywhere; his desk is covered with correspondence. The flow of letters, still increasing, now runs around 2,000 a year, or a half-dozen every day. Some are properly addressed (Box 2533, Lancaster, CA 93534), but he receives any mail that reaches Lancaster with "flat-earth" on it. And such letters sometimes come from the far edges of the world (an expression which Johnson and his membership accept quite literally). Rummaging in a box on the floor, Johnson produces inquiries from Saudi Arabia, Iran, India.
"Everybody who writes gets an answer," he reports. "An application or whatever is called for. We serve our purpose in keeping it alive. Whosoever asks, receives." The "we" includes his wife, Marjory, who is a native of Australia. The Johnsons met by chance in 1959, when they both went into a San Francisco store to buy the same record, Acker Bilk's haunting "Stranger on the Shore." They discovered that they had more in common than their tastes in music. They're both vegetarians, for one thing, but the overriding interest is geography
"Marjory has always known that the earth is flat, too," says Charles Johnson. "As far as she knew, everybody in Australia knew it. She was rather shocked when she arrived here and found people speaking of Australia as being 'down under.' It really offended her. She would get in quite heated arguments with people who seemed to accuse her of coming from down under the world." Ultimately, Marjory Johnson swore in an affidavit that she had never hung by her feet in Australia.
As secretary of the Flat Earth Society, she assists in running it, and writes a regular column in the News. She has also helped her husband perform experiments to determine the earth's shape. If it is a sphere, the surface of a large body of water must be curved. The Johnsons have checked the surfaces of Lake Tahoe and the Salton Sea (a shallow salt lake in southern California near the Mexican border) without detecting any curvature.
Their home is a half-mile from the nearest neighbor. Friends drop by now and then, but their primary companions are a half-dozen dogs, several cats, a flock of chickens, and a myriad of sparrows roosting in a Joshua tree just outside the door. No electric-power line runs to the house, for which water must be carried up the hill. The physical isolation is the ultimate in privacy--but another kind of isolation proves to be less desirable.
"We're two witnesses against the whole world," observes Charles Johnson. "We've chosen that path, but it isolates us from everyone. We're not complaining; it has to be. But it does kind of get to you sometimes."
In spite of the loneliness and the frustrations, they press on. Charles Johnson claims that most of the people who shaped our modern world were flat-earthers, and some of them didn't have it easy, either.
You weren't aware that flat-earthers have played an important part in history? Well, conventional histories don't make that clear. But inasmuch as revisionist history is in vogue, Charles Johnson should be recognized as one of the leading practitioners.
"Moses was a flat-earther," he reveals. "The Flat Earth Society was founded in 1492 B.C., when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt and gave them the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai."
Conventional biblical chronology dates the Ten Commandments to 1491 B.C., but it may be imprecise. Perhaps Johnson prefers 1492 for the symmetry. It was, after all, in 1492 A.D. that another famous flat-earther made history.
Have you heard the story about Columbus's problems with his crew? As some tell it, the crew nearly mutinied because they regarded the earth as flat, and feared they might sail off its edge.
"It was exactly the reverse," explains Johnson. "There was a dispute out on the ship, but it was because Columbus was a flat-earther. The others believed the earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back. Columbus had to put them in irons and beat them until he convinced them they weren't going over any curve, and they could return. He finally calmed them down."
Johnson believes that the ball business--though it goes back to the Greek philosophers--really got rolling after the Protestant Reformation.
"It's the Church of England that's taught that the world is a ball," he argues. "George Washington, on the other hand, was a flat-earther. He broke with England to get away from those superstitions." If Johnson is right, the American Revolution failed. No prominent American politician is known to have publicly endorsed the flat-earth theory in the past two centuries. Nevertheless, Johnson contends that this nearly happened right after World War II, not for the U.S. alone, but for the entire world. Consider the United Nations:
"Uncle Joe (Stalin), Churchill, and Roosevelt laid the master plan to bring in the New Age under the United Nations," Johnson discloses with confidence. "The world ruling power was to be right here in this country. After the war, the world would be declared flat and Roosevelt would be elected first president of the world. When the UN Charter was drafted in San Francisco, they took the flat-earth map as their symbol."
Why declare the world flat? Johnson responds that a prophesied condition for world government (Isaiah 60:20) is that the "sun shall no more go down." This could be fulfilled by admitting that sunrise and sunset are optical illusions. The UN did adopt for its official seal a world map identical with the one on Johnson's office wall. But Franklin Roosevelt died coincident with the UN's birth, and the other imminent events described by Johnson never came about.
What did happen, according to conventional historians, was that Russia and the U.S. began space programs. After the Russians sent up Sputnik in 1957, the space race was on in earnest. The high point came in 1969, when the U.S. landed men on the moon.
That, according to Johnson, is nonsense, because the moon landings were faked by Hollywood studios. He even names the man who wrote the scripts: the science-fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke. But he acknowledges that the moon landings were at least partly successful.
"Until then," he says, "almost no one seriously considered the world a ball. The landings converted a few of them, but many are coming back now and getting off of it."
Perhaps the Space Shuttle is intended to bolster the beliefs of these backsliders. Whatever its purpose, Johnson is convinced that it is not intended to actually fly. Because it was built and tested almost in his back yard, he knows many people who worked on it. What they've told him about some aspects of its construction only reinforces his convictions.
"They moved it across the field," he sneers, "and it almost fell apart. All those little side pieces are on with epoxy, and half fell off!"
The Shuttle had other problems besides heat resistant tiles that wouldn't stick. For instance, when the testers tried to mount it on a 747 for its first piggy-back test flight, it wouldn't fit.
"Can you imagine that?" chortles Johnson. "Millions of dollars they spent, and it wouldn't fit! They had to call in a handyman to drill some new holes to make the thing fit. Then they took it up in the air--and some more of it fell to pieces."
If the Shuttle ever does orbit on its own, it's supposed to return to Edwards Air Force Base. To Johnson, that's appropriate enough.
"Do you know what they're doing at Edwards right now?" he asks. "'Buck Rogers in the 25th Century' is made right where they claim they're going to land the Shuttle. Edwards is strictly a science-fiction base now.
"Buck is a much better science program, considerably more authentic. In fact, I recommend that the government get out of the space business and turn the whole thing over to ABC, CBS, and NBC. The tv networks do a far superior job. They could actually pay the government for rights, and it wouldn't cost the taxpayers a penny."
Flat Earth Society members are working actively to bring the Shuttle charade to an end. They hope to force the government to let the public in on what the power elite has known all along: the plane truth.
"When the United States declares the earth is flat," says Charles Johnson, "and we hope to be instrumental in making it do so, it will be the first nation in all recorded history to be known as a flat-earth nation.
"In the old days, people believed the earth was flat, because it's logical, but they didn't have a picture of the way it was, as we have today. Our concept of the world is new.
"Marjory and I are the avant garde. We're way ahead of the pack."
-- The end --
Postscript: Much has changed since I wrote this article, both in the world at large and in Charles Johnson's life. In late September 1995, the Johnsons' venerable high-desert home caught fire. Charles managed to pull Marjory, by then a semi-invalid on supplemental oxygen, to safety, but everything else in the house was destroyed--their personal possessions, the Flat Earth Society library and archives, the membership list, everything. Having no fire insurance, the Johnsons were unable to rebuild. A dilapidated old house trailer, bought as a storage shed, survived the fire, and they took refuge there. A few months later, Marjory fell and broke a hip. She survived hip replacement surgery but never recovered her strength. On May 16, 1996, she died.
The Flat Earth Society lives on, still doing business at Box 2533, Lancaster, CA 93534. Charles Johnson has immersed himself in rebuilding the membership roster. Publication of the Flat Earth News, in hiatus since 1994, will resume with the December 1996 issue.
fuck all of you all
" scientists are betting that this new telescope will also help find signs of 'shriveling' black holes."
What pray tell is a "shriveling" black hole? One that's been in the cosmic wash too long?
this part.
weren't they using SERENDIP and i believe it was sponsored by Aurthur C Clarke
It seems like if we're looking for aliens, the last place we'd like to look is in the middle of a black hole.
...
Then again, there seems to be some incentive to move to another continent just to look back into space, so they must know something I don't
Would someone explain exactly what they mean by "shriveling black holes?" Do they mean ones that are giving off Hawking radiation (don't they all do that)? How else can they "shrivel?"
I hate 'em. When are they going to admit the world is round? I think we should gather them all up and push them off the edge.
..attend to this, seti@home just looking for extra terrestial signs of life hasn't too much appealed to me(for various reasons, mainly because it's still looking for a needle from siberia, and wouldn't carry anything intresting even if some kind of sign was found, except create havoc by shaking people's minds..).
black hole's however seem like more possible and some extra info about them could help scientists tweak their theories.. wich could lead to something intresting, creative things.
of course, i am aware of folding@home, no need to reply pointing to it and that it has more use than some theories of space-time-continuum-and-all-things(tm), but there is also counter arguments why people don't want to fold@home(mainly on the who gets the monetary benefit which could end up being huge from the research&etc)..
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
They don't intend to scour the holes for VCGM...it's two different outings. You know, like going to the store to shop for elephants and popcorn. You do know the difference between elephants and popcorn, right? No? !! Man, I am never sending you to the store for popcorn.
Why on earth are the "friends", "fans", "foes", etc. links in my user info displayed in strike-through format? What's up with that?
Maybe this telescope will be able to find a conjunction for that sentence
Hopefully the new software will be SMP ready like the distributed.net client was, a lot of people have access to multi-cpu systems but don't have the time or patience to set up the system to run multiple instances of the program to take advantage of all the CPUs.
You might not want to beleive this, of course, until you have yourself verified this with your own mind. Well, at least I didn't. Then I took this meditation camp at Vipassana and slowly began realising the ultimate truth. Still not there. But will get there, one day, hopefully.
Fucking boring shit!!!!!!!!!!!! Who the fuck is interested in astronomy? cp editors /dev/grave
The Arecibo radio telescope in Puerto Rico receives information from about one third of the sky, all in the northern celestial hemisphere. But what if ET is lurking in the southern skies? The Parkes telescope in Australia is the largest radio telescope in the southern hemisphere and can observe all of the southern sky. Fortunately, SETI colleagues in Australia have agreed to colloborate with SETI@home and host a new data recorder at Parkes. Work on this new SETI@home data recorder is well under way. The new instrument will record data from 13 places on the sky simultaneously, observing 13 "beams" at a time compared to the 1 "beam" at Arecibo. We are trying to raise funds to conduct these southern hemisphere observations for SETI@home. Funding permitting, we expect the new data recorder to be installed and operational at Parkes in early 2003. For more information on the Southern Hemisphere SETI@home plans, see "SETI@home Gearing to Expand the Search" at the Planetary Society
They also name "AstroPulse - the search for pulsars, ET, and black holes" and "To support future projects we are developing the Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing (BOINC)"
There is also the planned project time line until 2005.
You know...I can remember when I could easily examine a week's worth of data in one afternoon. Next thing I know, it's taking me more like two days, then three.
One time, I took a whole month off and got behind six weeks....it took me forever to get caught up...that was two years ago. Best I can figure, if I can average a month's worth per week for the next 90 days, I'll be two weeks ahead and ready for another break.
and a physics student at UC Berkeley, I thought I would just provide a little more information for those of you who are too lazy to read the article. SETI@home has been collecting data at the Arecibo radio telescope for the last several years, and we have observed pretty much everything that is visible from that location. We are building a new data recorder that will be capable of observing broadband data/many independent narrow bands, and we will be using this to observe in Australia. We have also applied to re-observe any interesting locations we have found at Arecibo, using this new equipment.
For the last several years, we have been using the data we have gathered for several purposes, amongst which are mapping the Hydrogen distrobution in the milky way and searching for SETI. We are about to start a new project that will search for broadband pulses (which must be very short in durration), which can be encoded to have a reverse dopler effect, which would be a clear sign of ET. However, a normal pulse would be a sign of an evaporating black hole, which has been predicted but never observed.
This new project will run on a system called BOINC, the Berkeley Open Infrasturcture for Network Computing (yes, it's open source, to be released under the Mozilla Public License). However, BOINC is not limited to running only Astro-Pulse (the previously mentioned project) and the next generation of SETI@home, but will also be running other independent distributed computing projects. More information is available at the BOINC and SETI@home websites.
There's no sig like SIGSEG
Siis mä en tajua, kuka pystyy määrittelemään, että on niiko "increased chance", eli nouseneet chanssit löytää extra terrestiaaleja? Ei sitä kukaan tiedemies pysty mitenkään määrittelemään. Asia olisi toinen mikäli olisimme löytäneet joitakin todisteita (evidence of extra terrestials) E.T.:stä! Mitään todisteita ei kuitenkaan nyt ole. Joten emme voi sanoa, että olisi jotenkin paremmat chanssit.
Parkes Observatory Homepage (does not mention SETI yet, at least not prominently)
Perfectly Normal Industries
"...to transfer it's operations from Arecibo to another telescope in Australia, where they say lies an increased chance of finding extra-terrestrials. The Australian telescope is more powerful, with a wider view of the sky; scientists are betting that this new telescope will also help find signs of 'shriveling' black holes."
This whole SETI nonsense is the strongest evidence yet of shriveling intelligence of human science. There is no logical reason why one part of the sky will have more chance of detecting a signal than any other.
These guys are in it for the career only. This is not science.
Are you sure that's not BOINK, where overaged cheerleaders are forced to....
'astro' what?
Where I come from, a natural pulse is something not found on a corpse.
Please SETI@Home developers, if you chance my reading this please consider what I have to say.
Graphicless client. Yes I'm aware there is a command line client, it is a main in the ass to get running and have STAY running for many people. I'd like a client I can load up as a service in WinNT or a deamon in Unix that will run without my futzing with it or having to do anything but have the damn thing load from init. I think there's a slew of other SETI@Home users who'd appriciate this as well.
Worker threads. Oh please oh please oh please in your next revision add worker threads. I really don't need the graphics run in one thread and work units processed in another. I've got a dual P3 system that is on 24/7. Half of its processing capacity is sitting idle since I don't run the S@H screen saver. The monitor is off whenever the system isn't in use so the screen saver isn't much use.
Those two are the most important for me really. I run a couple distributed computing clients at different times but I started with S@H and have a special place for it in my widdle heart. I'm in it for the search itself, not to just have a cool screen saver. I think there's plenty of others who wouldn't mind a built for speed version of your client.
As an aside, does anyone know if any of the S@H work units are recycled and fed into other projects like studying pulsars or radio emitting variable stars? I'm not too up on the format of S@H work units but I thought it'd be cool if astronomers studying any sort of celestial phenomenae in radio bands could recycle WUs for their own purposes, even if they don't have a big distributed cluster working on them.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
I'm pretty sure the Parkes dish was the one in the nice 2000 movie called The Dish.
If you haven't seen it I bet, as a Slashdotter, you'd like it.
At least seti@home seems to finally solved their bandwidth problem. I lack a heater in this particular part of the house so athlons must do, its nice that they will run toasty just in time for fall.
I'm running most of my clients under 2k and stopped for a time because of the problems they were having. (writing hundreds of entries to event logs [oh no! we can't connect] is a really, really annoying thing)
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Lies! Damn lies!
(does not mention SETI yet, at least not prominently)
Perhaps not, but the link from that to the Long Baseline Array is quite interesting. There is a map of the array of telescopes - the spread is huge!
Everyone knows that the aliens have amazing scientific know-how, and are thus invisible to our primitive technology.
We don't have anything to worry about though; they'll just come to a planet that is two-thirds water (even though they have a severe allergy to it), and try and whup our butts in hand to hand inside of using their vaporizers.
Death by plant spray.
Least, that's what they said in Signs, anyway.
But what about letting both sattelites run, you know - like a Beowulf Cluster of these.
How about adding in multiple threads? (besides seperating out the graphics of the screensaver)
I have several dual-procs at my disposal that I like to run SETI@home on, but its an absolutely hideous chore to run and manage multiple instances of the client on the same machine.
Oh, and is SETI@home trademarked? Is the YourCableCompanyHere@Home a violation? (I'd love to see SETI get a huge widfall settlement at the "big boys'" expense.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Why do you guys waste your computing power on trying to find ?? ? Same thing with cracking RC5-64, all's we proven is that it takes 4 years to crack a msg!!! lets focus on things like cancer research (www.ud.com), protein folding (folding.stanford.edu), and GIMPS (http://216.120.70.80/primenet) etc.
There's many others out there too, most net based projects are listed here:
http://www.aspenleaf.com/distributed/
Really outstanding observation and interesting point of a view!
No, RMS, Linux is not GNU/Linux
...AND SLASHDOT published astronomy shit on frontpage... not these NEWS!
"One guy, Linus Torvalds, used GCC to make his operating system (yes, Linux is an OS -- more on this later). He named it 'Linux' with a little help from his friends. Why doesn't he call it GNU/Linux? Because he wrote it, with more help from his friends, not you. You named your stuff, I named my stuff -- including the software I wrote using GCC -- and Linus named his stuff. The proper name is Linux because Linus Torvalds says so. Linus has spoken. Accept his authority. To do otherwise is to become a nag. You don't want to be known as a nag, do you?"
LINUX use is growing 30% / year!
"Linux use is growing 30 per cent year-on-year and while it hasn't been targeted as much, Linux is going to be targeted. Any application - open source or otherwise - will have weaknesses," he added.
I'm still trying to find intelligent life on Earth...
Humor aside, I'm looking forward to this move. After 2618 hours spent plugging away at Arecibo's data, it'll be refreshing to get some new data to work with. I'm of the belief that the Universe is just too damned big for us to be that special in terms of intelligent life. With our galaxy as big as it is, not to mention other galaxies beyond it, it's hard to believe that we're all alone in the great void. Bring on the Aussie telescope's data!
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
Absolutely: Australia, where according to the article there is an increased chance to find extraterrestrials. I don't see why they didn't search in Australia to begin with. On second thought, perhaps they first had to hone their detection technology so that they can distinguish native Australians from the aliens. Yeah, that must be it.
One thing that makes me continue to run SETI@home instead of more "practical" applications like protein folding is the simple fact that SETI@home will not generate money for the originators of the project. The results of protein folding and AIDS research will ultimately result in some people getting filthy rich, and if they want that they can bloody well do the work themselves.
:D
There are essentially no searches being carried out in the Southern hemisphere at the present after the Howard government in Australia chose to withdraw all funding back in 1996.
Maybe someone could look at an Asteroid@Home option as well?
"I'm tired of all this 'Aren't humanity great' bullshit. We're a virus with shoes" - Bill Hicks
What is the point in SETI?
Certain parts of society are already liasing with aliens, and we have been for some time. Wake up and smell the coffee!
Read:
www.disclosureproject.com
www.cseti.org
www.seaspower.com
Science needs to open its eyes, and take off the blinkers.
Read a fairly accurate review of the movie.
/usr/bin/fortune favours the brave
If you really don't believe in that project, you can do something would have more direct implications.
:(
go to http://www.intel.com/cure and pick UD (United Devices,founded by seti@home project guy) Cancer project.
Phase 1 has ended, now they run Phase 2. Its running as IDLE process and no problems here. (runs non stop for 97 days here I read) Only for win32 though
I mean nothing is more stupid than an idle processor 24/7 while it can help something.
Oh btw, I am not against seti@home in anyway.
"... in Australia, where they say lies an increased chance of finding extra-terrestrials".
We used to have lots of illegal aliens but our Immigration Minister kicked them out and sent them to other Pacific islands...
> yes, it's open source, to be released under the Mozilla Public License
Will the whole S@H part be also open source?
This far it has been rather questionable why S@H has been closed source. The explanations given by S@H staff hasn't hold water as there has been presented a way how many of the benefits of open source in a security sense can be accomplished without being truly open source:
http://www.geocities.com/usenet_j/vadcosl.html
VADCOSL - Volunteer Assisted Distributed Computing Open Source License
I remember lenghtly debate about the issue in USENET few months ago.
While I understand the need to search for near-earth asternoids (the extinction of the human species doesn't appeal to me), there should be some resources reserved for projects like SETI. In retrospect, when we think of the greatest achivements of science, more often than not we think of the advances that changed, in a fundamental way, our understanding of the natural world. I don't see how knowing that the earth orbits the sun rather than the other way around made anyone's life better at the time, but the proof of this ranks as one of the greatest achievements in human history because it revolutionized the way we thought about God, ourselves, and the world we live in.
I think that the discovery of an extraterrestial civilization would be an achievement on par with the proof of heliocentrism. Knowing that there are civilizations on other planets would have no immediate practical consequences (we wouldn't be able to travel to their planet and meet them), but the knowledge that we aren't the only civilized species would radically alter the way that we think about the world, especially in terms of theology and metaphysics.
What I, in my ignorance, consider to be a waste of resources is the development of new elements. This is something that has no practical value and no effect on our worldview. Creating new elements in particle accelerators must be very, very expensive, and the finished product only lasts for a short period of time. Even if they found that, somewhere down the line, element 315 is stable, it wouldn't matter because they're making these things one atom at a time. If element 315 had an atomic mass of 700, they'd have to produce something like 8x10^20 atoms just to get a gram of it. I vote that we take their grant money and use it to search for near-earth asteroids.
Steve
Whether or not it would be a better use of time, you can't use a general-purpose radio telescope for this sort of work. The best approach is a network of small optical telescopes like those run by Spacewatch. Since the data reduction process there is pretty straightforward, I doubt there'd be a need for an @home project.
Take a clue from KLAT2
"KLAT2's 80/64-bit double-precision performance is around 22.8 GFLOPS, a very respectable number. Then again, using 3DNow!, KLAT2's single-precision ScaLAPACK performance zips to over 64 GFLOPS"
Optimize clients for different architectures. MMX, 3Dnow!, SSE, SSE2, Altivec, Hyper threading, x86-64 etc.
Might be nice to jump from 50 Tflops/s to 150/s just by using processor specific instructions.
Since the client will be open source, users may try it anyway but perhaps SETI could offer some kind of contest to insure the code gets audited properly.
For programmers out there, imagine placing "Optimized code for the largest distributed computing project in the world, resulting in a threefold increase in performance" in your resume.
Being personally responsible for adding 100 Tflop/s to seti@home beats the hell out of running clients on a few idle machines.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
I notice that they will make use of the multibeam receiver to get effectively a 13 times increase in stuff they can look at at one time.
.5 degrees across (quick back of the envelope calculation there, so to speak). What in the sky is within .5 degrees? Globular clusters and the centre of the milyway galaxy (or indeed, other galaxies). You won't find life in globular clusters, because there are simply far too many stars too close together, and life would be cooked. Same thing for the centre of our our galaxy. And since you can only see entire globular clusters or supernova in other galaxies, I refuse to believe any civilasation could produce more radiation than a supernova, so we won't be able to see anything that far out!
:)
I wouldn't think this would be terribly useful. When you go up into the focus cabin, and realise the 13 recievers are separated by not more than about 40cm (the dish is 64 metres across) - ie, you are looking at an area of the sky about
Not to mention I really hate seeing such a useful instrument such as the multibeam receiver wasted on such a useless task as SETI, but they are probably (hopefully) only piggy backing on the electrons going to other experiments.
Okay, picky picky this one, but I think you mean more sensitive. We're not blasting the aliens with Ricky Martin (maybe they didn't like that, hence the move), we're listening here.
Bigger dishes and arrays have the advantage of higher signal gain and different far field patterns (listening area shapes).
You gotta have more gain to overcome loss of signal due to air, noisy equipment, and the like. You don't get many choices on moving a dish the size of a small town really, so you gotta move.
Dan N7NMD/9W2DU
The Asteroids@Home bit was more of a quip at the end than a serious idea. I was talking more about the use of the telescope time, but as the poster above and yourself mentioned, a radio telescope isnt the right tool for the task, so its pretty much a moot point.
I just get pissed off at how issues as large as the failure to search for civilisation desroyers get forgotten as easy as they do. Oh well, its not like we'd leave anyone grieving the loss of humankind.
"I'm tired of all this 'Aren't humanity great' bullshit. We're a virus with shoes" - Bill Hicks
"...in Australia, where they say lies an increased chance of finding extra-terrestrials."
I haven't been following the UFO press lately. Has there been a spate of sightings in the Outback?
On a more serious note, are these characters saying that there are more advanced stellar civilizations in the southern sky than the northern sky? One shudders at the contorted logic and statistical analysis that could have led to such a conclusion.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
Can you really say that a telescope stares? Perhaps because it typically is fixed, but it is a tool so it doesn't really look. It just allows us to look.
We're decoding the message fron the aliens now sir. They say "Watch .. Out .. For .. That .. Asteroi--"...
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Meant to write "starred" not "stared".
/me goes off to sit in the corner wearing the dunces cap.
I mean nothing is more stupid than an idle processor 24/7 while it can help something.
So turn the f***ing thing off if you're not using it!! Haven't you heard of global warming? Let me guess, you're American, right?
Calling Parkes mroe 'powerful' than Arecibo is somewhat confusing. Arecibo actually has a much larger disk, so it can detect fainter sources (one definition of powerful). However, it gets this collecting area at the expense of being unable to steer, while Parkes can point all over the sky. The other issue is the multibeam receiver. Parkes with multibeam can observe 13 positions at once, while Arecibo is constrained to one. In this sense Parkes could be said to be 13 times as powerful as Arecibo.
It should be noted that there is also a multibeam receiver at Jodrell Bank near Manchester. I'm not sure if this has been involved with any SETI observations.
As to going to the south, an earlier SETI search by META found a few signals that might've been of artificial origin, but these did not repeat, so were not cast iron SETI candidates. Intrigingly, these sources clustered along the Galactic Plane. By moving the search to the south, SETI will be able to see far more galactic stars. The reference for this is: Horowitz and Sagan, 1993, Astrophysical Journal vol. 415 p.218.
How about a version of the OS X screen saver that doesn't crash the machine? My iBook reboots randomly while running it and a buddy of mine's dual CPU tower has random lockups with the client.
.technomancer
That may or may not exist, we have asteroids that DO exist that present a threat.....
I say all this scanning of the skies could be put to equal if not greater use by developing a distributed computing client that scans the skies for possible asteroids that may pose a threat.
> SETI@home is planning to transfer it's operations
Transfer it is operations? Really?
Slashdot, where illiteracy is valued above anything else.
I presume they'll be looking for prison planets from now on?
oh c'mon, laugh.
I haven't read all the comments, so someone may have pointed this out, but SETI@Home hit 4 million users yesterday. Pretty impressive.
This search doesn't "waste" any time on the ohserving telescope. The SETI@Home instruments ride piggyback on the telescope, and don't get to choose were the telescope is pointed at. Instead, they look at whatever part of the sky other scientists are observing.
In the case of the Parkes observatory, much of the time is spent looking for pulsars. SETI@Home won't detract from that at all. It will just take more data "in parallel."
I'm not aware that any asteroids, earth-crossing or not, have radio signatures. Optical telescopes are needed for asteroid searches...
Interestingly enough, it is possible to develop an internally consistent cosmology that does have the Earth at its center, with the Sun and the rest of the planets orbiting us. It is based on a model initially proposed by the astronomer Tycho Brahe. I don't blame you for not knowing this since it seems that they won't teach it in schools (now there's a surprise!) but at the very least you should not be so quick to claim that heliocentristicism has been "proven."
Don't they know aliens use Sub-Space to communicate?!
Dear Seti;
I hope you're reading this. I'd like a greater variety of clients, and preferably, more command line clients. I don't want to waste CPU cycles generating a pretty screensaver on my PC or Mac, I want to fly through work units.
Secondly, I believe that some time ago (around version 3) you DROPPED support for Sparc Linux, which cut the number of machines I can devote to SETI in half. I believe I have 1 Mac, 2 Windows machines and 1 Intel Linux machine still working on SETI (I have about 9500 work units done), but, if the Sparc Linux client returned, I could double the number of machines I have doing SETI.
Also, please make them stand-alone clients, and not dependent upon a library I may or may not have. Download time of the client isn't a factor, getting it to run, and run easily is the goal.
Thanks!
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Don't worry about it.
AFTER the big rock falls out of the sky and kills almost everyone, Congress will propose a bill that will enact a subcommitte to discuss the solution.
Assuming bipartisan agreement, it should only take a few millenia after that to arrive at possible defense, which will be to bomb Iraq, or jail hackers, or something similar to the DCMA, but for asteroids....
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Now they'll find even more nothing.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
From the article:
> BOINC, in essence, is "a new layer of software" that separates the different components of the SETI@home program. It will allow changes to be installed without interrupting the screensaver or asking the user to download upgrades.
Hopefully this will be an option, and not a requirement.
Vote for global prefs bug
Creating new elements in particle accelerators does alter the way we (well, physicists) think about the world. Creating trans-Uranic elements gives physicists insight into the atomic structure, how atoms are built, what keeps them together. Indeed, the creation (and destruction--how they fall apart is just as important as how they're built) of new elements provides data that are used to shape the most fundamental models of the universe; quantum theory and other such things are derived, in part, from such data.
Additionally, some of those elements do have a practical use; perhaps you've heard of a synthetic element called Plutonium?
Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
Thats the theme of Clarke's "Rendevous with Rama" series, about to become a movie. 'Kill two birds with one stone' then :-)
SETI radio while NEC is visual. These would use different existing telescopes. They would compete for operational funding, though.
Aliens are trying to communicate with us via vibrations sent through element 315 via Quantum means?
Of course that is all just off the cuff nonsense science, but even so who's to say that other branches of science might not yield proof of extraterrestrial existance before radio telescopes?
As for hunting for NEO objects, I daringly propose that everyone on welfare be sent to orbiting satellites to man searching stations, and the whole welfare fund from every country used to build and maintain these stations. Then the people have some good marketable skills when they rotate off duty in a few years.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
CNN is carrying a small article titled, "New telescope as big as Earth itself" about radio telecopes that cover 3 continents and work in unison to peer at the galaxy. If yer interested... read on.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
Sadly, due to the constant eroding of such invaluable skills, like... say spelling for example, this one slipped by. What the original poster meant to say was that it starred in the movie (i.e. it played a role) as opposed to it staring in the movie. (i.e. looking at something with a fixed gaze.) Feel free to look them up in dictionary.com for better definitions, but you get the idea.
"it is possible to develop an internally consistent cosmology that does have the Earth at its center, with the Sun and the rest of the planets orbiting us. It is based on a model initially proposed by the astronomer Tycho Brahe."
They teach Tycho Brahe's system in school, but you have to take a college astronomy course to hear about it. Brahe had access to the best empirical data that could be gathered with the naked eye (he collected it himself). This was the data that Kepler used to formulate his view that planets orbit in elipses rather than circles. But since Brahe didn't have access to telescopes, his data still wasn't all that great.
The advent of telescopes made it possible to collect data that was even better than what Brahe had collected. Once you have telescopes, you have the ability to see the shadows that the sun casts on planets as they (or the sun, if that makes you happy) move around. I forget the exact situation, but someone was able to observe a shadow that, due to the angles involved, was impossible in a geocentric system, even in Brahe's.
Though Brahe's system failed, I heard from a retired math professor that you can construct a complete mathematical model of planetary movement by assuming that, instead of living on the surface of a sphere, we live on the inside of a sphere, with the sun at the center. I don't know anything about this, though, and can't explain how or if it works.
Steve
What are they thinking?
WARNING: Upgrades that download automatically without any user intervention? Have they gone "BOINCers?" This is a very bad idea that will create an enormous security hole. My prediction is that most businesses that currently allow seti@home will ban the new BOINC system.
Do we really need another generic distributed computing platform like the failed or failing Popular Power, Process Tree, Entropia, Parabon, and Distributed Science?
Perhaps instead we should upgrade the aliens to make them easier to detect.
Table-ized A.I.
In my previous post, I admitted to being not very familiar with the creation or destruction of new elements, and now that you mention it, I see some value in the pursuit. But scientists (and all academics) have a tendency to research only the things that interest them and to publish the results only to their academic peers. The fruits of the research never leave the Ivory Tower.
This is fine if the scholars are going to pay for everything themselves, but if they use scarce public resources to conduct their research, they have a responsibility to give back to the public. It doesn't need to be a marketable or practical payback, but real people in the real world ought to wiser as a result of the work that scholars do.
Scientists are actually pretty good about giving back, but the current state of some disciplines is just disgraceful. Philosphers, for example, seem to have totally abandoned their responsibility to the public that funds their research.
Steve
I am worried that the seti@home project has lost its focus and gone astray. Seti@home was a romantic notion that captured the hearts and minds^h^h^h^h^h of many of it's users. Mindshare YES, brain power NO.
I think seti@home should transform itself from being a passive project to being an active project. Utilizing the spare CPU cycles of a million idle computers is great but utilizing the millions of idle minds that stare at the screen-saver is revolutionary. Imagine the computing potential. It's incredible.
I know the Seti League's project Argus is a volunteer effort, but unfortunately most of us don't have the space, money, skill, or time required to build a seti microwave station in our own backyard.
My idea is to collect high quality microwave data from antennas such as Arecibo and Parkes and distribute that to users over the internet. Instead of (or in parallel to) a seti@program client, the user would use a signal analysis tool such as baudline to search for drifting signals. Search strategies would need to be conceived and programmed. A collaborative component would need to be built to allow IM like communication, second opinions, and instant peer review. It would be true distributed science that anyone with a creative mind and a computer could participate in.
Since baudline can read and decode the seti@home work_unit.sah files you can perform your own secondary analysis of the seti@home data. Baudline is free but it only runs on x86 linux so give it a try if you can. Most WU data files appear to be pure noise and are boring to look at but occasionally you get an interesting one. Auto-drift rulez.
The ukentucky link below a similar concept that is rough and needs more polish. The potential is there but the implementation is flawed. It also needs more volunteers.
If advanced alien civilizations existed in numbers significant enough for us to hear their radio transmissions, the probability is overwhelming that at least one in a nearby galaxy would have embarked on a program of colonization. Evolution favors organisms which have a drive to expand (otherwise they would have been out-competed). Technological civilizations inherit their evolutionary drives and will share this expansionist tendency.
Expansion can be performed at a significant fraction of the speed of light. von Neumann machines - self-replicating, nanotech-based robotic spacecraft - can fly to a new system, make copies for exploration and colonization, and more copies which get sent off to other stars, all using local system resources. An entire galaxy or even group of galaxies can be explored and colonized at perhaps a tenth the speed of light. A million years will be enough to cover all the stars in a galaxy; a few times that will cover the local group of galaxies.
Once a solar system is inhabited by a technological civilization, its most important goal will be to manage the primary resource, the energy production of the central star. Stars in unmodified systems radiate 99+% of their energy wastefully into empty space. A civilization will want to capture that energy and put it to work, by building a Dyson sphere or some similar structures to collect the wasted light and heat from the star. Star systems inhabited by advanced civilizations will look very different from the ones we see in our galaxy.
The galaxy is ten billion years old. Our technological culture is no more than a few thousand years old. If other technological species have arisen, chances are statistically overwhelming that they are at least tens or hundreds of millions of years ahead of us. This means that they will have had ample time to fully explore, colonize and even modify the entire galaxy.
The only plausible way this can't happen is if there are no other technological civilizations out there. And in that case, SETI won't work, we won't find any signals. That's the only reasonable conclusion we can draw from the fact that we live in a galaxy unmodified by technology.
If the galaxy were so full of advanced life that SETI would work, they'd be here, and everywhere else in the galaxy, by now. Therefore SETI can't work.
Statistics?
When anyone starts talking statistics when referencing outer space, I just have to cringe. So, let me get this straight, just so I understand your argument.
1) aliens who use radio waves must be technologically advanced.
2) Technologically advanced aliens would expand to other planets (why? what if they cannot handle weightlessness, what if they don't WANT to?)
3) Said expansion would use relativistic speeds at all times to expand
ergo: We would not recieve signals much before we recieved aliens.
Now, let's look at a simple argument against your _Very_ loose logic.
1) Space is three dimensional. Even assuming your "expansion" theory is correct, you must assume either (a) the species multiplies as fast as they expand radially outward (so that the population density is large enough that they will run into us eventually, as their expansion reaches us.
or (b) they are targeting us as a direction to move towards. Personally, I don't find any plausibility to either of these arguments.
2) You assume that since it only took us several thousand years to get where we are, there would HAVE to be species that evolved before us. There is no proof, anecdotal or otherwise that we, as a species are either late or early comers to the scene. I am resonably sure that to be able to withstand the change needed to create technology, some form of advanced, multi-cellular organism would be required. This requires a long process of evolution, assuming you believe in such.
There are other problems, I won't go into them now....
hmmmm?
About time, recently restarted seti@home after a lengthy absence and the work units were dated 1999. While the project is interesting, who wants to re-analyze 3 year old data for the 1000th time.
to paraphrase Dr. Frink:
"which is obvious to even the most dimwitted individual that holds a phd in adavanced astronomy."
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
25 * * * *
_____________
runs the start-seti program hourly (start-seti checks for duplicates before going further)
start-seti:
#!/bin/bash
cd ~samuel/seti
if ! ps auxw | grep setiathome | grep --quiet -v grep
then
./setiathome -graphics -email -nice 20 >> seti.log
fi_____________________
Note that standard error is not redirected. If something goes wrong, stderr output gets mailed to me by cron.
If seti@home starts with BOINC auto-loading programs, I'd be inclined to run this under a sandbox account (if I run it at all).
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
You sure about 100W? - a P-IV 2GHz consumes 75W by itself - a single HD consumes 12W when idle see Tom's hardware for reference. The motherboard is not innocuous and neither are the RAM or the video card. You don't have to run 3D for the GPU to run hot. Then there's all these fans. My guess it that the computer probably consumes at least 150W when running 100% CPU without disk access with recent CPUs from either Intel or AMD. Now I need to read out on switching PSU like you say. What is their efficiency? They seem to require cooling as well (fans) so it can't be 100%. To me 200-250W seems very reasonable as a consumption starting point when running S@H. Certainly recent PCs are quite good at heating a living room. And even if you are right (100W) that's still over $100/y, not an altogether negligible sum. Maybe you can laugh about it but I don't.
Would you, in fact, feel better knowing that in 3 months an asteroid large enough to destroy 98% of all life would collide with Earth? Or would you prefer to spend your last few months, blissfully ignorant, while you watch the really cool SETI@Home screen saver?
What civilization in its right mind would create von Neumann machines? How could any biological civilization decide creating von Neumann machines is in its best interest?
As for biological beings go: I think it's quite possible that, as a general rule, civilizations are forced to find a solution to overpopulation or go extinct/collapse into "dark ages." The use of medicine to unnaturally prolong the average lifespan is probably a natural priority of any biological civilization. The population would grow faster than the species had evolved to handle. But this medical revolution, as in humans, is probably technologically easier than interstellar expansion. Thus they would be faced with the overpopulation problem before they can consider exponential colonization as a solution. If they don't solve the problem, they go extinct or their civilization collapses and slowly rebuilds until it's faced with the problem again. If they do solve the problem, they can continue to technologically advance, but no longer have a need to expand their territory.
The people at SETI are obviously aware of the pardox you've mentioned, and they obviously realize that it is a valid concern but not a definitive negation of the possibility of life elsewhere. Say SETI "might not work" for these reasons and you're right. Say SETI "can't work" and you're a fool.