Former DrinkOrDie Member Chris Tresco Answers

Okay, former DrinkOrDie member and convicted warez dude Chris Tresco got his answers to your questions back to us, so here they are. (Note: Chris does not advise you to follow in his footsteps.)

1) How clueful are they?
by jeffy124
In your opinion, how did the each party (prosecution, your lawyer, and most important - the judge) look when it came to their understanding of technology? Did they know every nook and cranny, or seem lost in a maze of confusion? Do you think an understanding of the issues in question was a significant factor in court proceedings?

Chris:
That is a tough question to answer considering the organizational structure of the government's side of things. The prosecution works very closely with other units of law enforcement when it comes to technically challenging cases like mine. In my situation, the government prosecutors were very well briefed about how the technical aspect of the warez scene work. They are briefed by law enforcement agents who are very technically savvy and able to sift through all of the data that they are presented with at the time a warrant is carried out. With this data, the agents build a packet of evidence that the procecutors can look through and easily understand. They had a plethora of evidence on which to build a case against me and it boiled down that all the ones and zeros that the agents were able to pick through added up to copyright infringement in the prosecution's eyes.

The judge doesn't really see the technical aspect of the case. He sees a report of the evidence, which is written in clean English, and makes his decision based on that.

My lawyer isn't very technically adept, but lawyers are pretty bright. He was able to grasp the concepts of everything, if he wasn't able to, he wouldn't be my lawyer. :) Besides, I was able to coach him through most of it.

2) "The Bust", WarGames or Matrix?
by msheppard
What was "The Bust" like? Was it like _WarGames_ where they showed up in black vans and confiscated your computers and rifled through your trash? Or was it more like _Matrix_ where they called you in and presented all sorts of evidence they collected online etc.?

Chris:
I would say that it was a cross between the two. I will lay out exactly what happened to me:

I was sitting at my computer chatting with a fellow DOD member on IRC. All of a sudden I noticed my net connection died. When I went to walk out the door, a U.S. Customs agent met me. "Mr. Tresco, My name is XXXXX, I am with the U.S. Customs Department. Would you mind coming with me?" As I turned the corner, there were about 20 law enforcement officials combing the halls of my workplace. We proceeded to a conference room where I answered questions for the better part of the day while the agents proceeded to carry out their warrant. They were looking for specific systems that were on the warrant. They had IP addresses. Technically, they had the authority to take everything on the network that the computers identified on the warrant were on, however they followed the warrant pretty strictly, taking only the stuff on it. It was really the hardest day of my life. I had no idea what was going on most of the time. I felt like I was in a dream.

3) Was there a feeling that DoD was too big?
by crunnluadh
The incredibly large volume of warez DoD was trading must have been staggering. At any point in time did you or anyone else in DoD ever think that the whole ring was getting way out of hand? If so, what ever came from that or those discussions?

Chris:
In terms of percentages of releases put out by DOD in relation to the scene, we weren't doing all that many. We did, however, have quite a large number of ftp sites that were being heavily utilized. One of our private leech sites was larger than a terrabyte of games and movies. It was constantly being uploaded to and downloaded from. This should give you an idea of the amount of trading that was going on.

To answer your other question... I felt on a daily basis that things were getting out of control. There were times that I did actually quit, but only for a day or so. IRC always brought me back online. That was my biggest mistake. DOD was a warez group, yes... but imagine a bunch of guys/gals sitting around talking all day and suddenly you stop showing up... You start to miss that type of interaction.

4) Feelings?
by Sebastopol
Are you scared about going to prison? Do they prepare you in any way before you enter the facility, or do they just throw you in and that's it?

Just typing these questions make me uncomfortable.

Chris:
I am very scared to go to prison. I have never been in any sort of jail in my life. They prepare you in the sense that they tell you where and when to go, what you can bring, and what type of facility it is. The rest is done through books and my lawyer, who has been really great through this whole ordeal. I am fortunate enough to be assigned to a minimum security facility close to my home.

5) If it wasn't about the money, what was it about?
by wackybrit
You were a sysadmin at MIT, so were probably pulling in a pretty good wage.. at least, probably better than 50% of the Slashdot readership anyway.

So if it wasn't about the money, what was it about? Prestige is one option, but people in these groups need to keep hidden, so that doesn't fit. Was it for the ideals? If so, what ideals are there in ripping off software?

I can understand why people who can't afford software rip it off.. they have stuff to do, and can't afford $500 for Photoshop or whatever.. but tell me why someone with a decent salary will work in secret to beat the software companies.. what is the motivation?

Chris:
My motivation had absolutely nothing to do with the software, the prestige, the civil disobedience, or the mysteriousness of it all. My motivation was purely and simply putting technology to work. I have always been a curious cat, like most of you that read Slashdot. I was basically the Sysadmin of DrinkOrDie. I love to make computers work together, build up networks, install services, lockdown boxes... you guys know the drill. I got very carried away with what I was doing and forgot to confide in my moral self. I knew I was doing wrong, and yes... to clear anything up... it is absolutely wrong to steal software from a company. Whether it is ones or zeros or bags of money, it is stealing. If for no other reason, it is wrong because of the license agreement. If you don't agree with the license, don't use the software.

6) questions from a fellow cracker
by Anonymous Coward
I am a cracker from a fairly well known group, living in the US. We take normal precautions (encrypted email/irc), but there are clear vulnerabilities that cant easily be eliminated (topsite accounts and the possibility of trojaned supplied software, etc.). The dod bust stunned all of us with the lengths of the sentences, which seem out of proproportion to the crime. I find myself asking more and more whether the risk is worth the fun. We are all in it for the commaraderie and the friends (and the access to files); of course none of us are making any money from it. My question is, if you had it to do over again, would you stay out of a group, and of the scene? Were there risks you took that you sholdn't have? What were they? Any advice to someone still in the scene who wants to stay but worries about being caught?

Chris:
If I had to do it over again, I would absolutely not get involved with the scene. The scene is technically organized crime... that is it. Mobsters have friends too, but would you want to go to prison for what you and your fellow comrades are doing on the net? Isn't it better to pay for the occasional piece of software you might want than to pay with 33 months in federal prison? I think so... And you say here:

"I find myself asking more and more whether the risk is worth the fun."

That is the wrong way to think about it. You are asking yourself if it is worth something to commit a crime. What you should be asking yourself is, if what you are doing is fundamentally wrong. If it is (and I would say that it is) then stop doing it.

To answer the rest of your question... The only pertinent risk was getting involved with the scene in the first place. You will get caught sooner or later if you continue doing what you are doing. My advice to you is to get out while you still can. Any precautions you take are easily circumvented. For example, email encrypted via PGP is only as strong as the people who get the email. If the government busts 20 people in your group, the odds of one of the people giving up their passphrase is pretty good. from that point, all the mail is readable. Encrypted IRC is not going to do it either. What if one of the people you are chatting with is an informant? Encryption becomes meaningless.

My advice: get out of the scene.

7) Plans for your stay?
by zbuffered
One of the things about jail is that you have nothing but free time. So what do you plan to do? Study for a new career? Work out constantly? Plan your escape? Learn to speak Sanskrit?

When you get out, you will have had 33 months of basically no real responsibilities. If you find a nice, cushy prison, you can get some real work done. Are you going to use this time to make your life when you get out of jail better?

Also, when you get out, what do you plan to do? Something in the computer field, or do you plan to change your path when you get out? If I were in your place, I think I'd just get fed up with computers and become a florist or something.

Chris:
During the time I am in prison, I will educate myself. I will hopefully be able to take some classes towards a degree. Since I love working with systems, I will hopefully be able to school myself in the art of business and compliment my technical skills. My passion lies with IT, I would love to take the education I get from prison (formal or not) and use it to better my career and make me a better person.

8) Rise of P2P?
by Rayonic
How do you feel about the rise of P2P and its affects on the Warez community? Do you think it makes it safer (safety in numbers?) or do you think that it'll bring down the fist of the law even harder?

Which P2P networks did you prefer, if any?

Chris:
In the context of the warez scene, P2P networks don't play any part. They are essentially mutually exclusive members. I think that people in the warez scene used P2P networks just as frequently and for the same purposes as the majority of P2P users. P2P and the warez scene do, however, relate in one fashion. Both networks utilize the internet as a means to illegally distribute copyrighted works. This will affect both entities in that the more illegal activity that goes on in general, the more law enforcement will be trying to put an end to it. This puts more heat on both services. Technology crimes are also a hot topic as of late. So popular that there are many organizations, like the Software and Information Industry Association (SIIA) at www.siia.net and the Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section (CCIPS) of the Department of Justice at www.cybercrime.gov, whose sole purpose is to stop them from happening. Software companies really do lose money from piracy, why else would they support these types of organizations?

Oh. and I preferred ftp.

9) What is your opinion of free software?
by Billly Gates
If you plan not to pirate software again would you chose to pay for commercial apps or would you use free software?

Has your opinion changed about free software vs commercial software because of your unfortunate experience?

Do you think strong armed tactics by the BSA and upcoming drm will actually help spread free software?

Chris:
I generally try to run linux on the desktop where ever possible. That being said, I love free software, I used it when I was pirating and I use it now. I am composing this in OpenOffice btw. :)

I think both free and commercial software have their place in the industry. I also think that DRM and the BSA won't really have any effect on free software. People and businesses who pay for software don't have to worry about these features because what they are doing is legitimate. In my mind, I would think that companies who are completely compliant who are targeted by the BSA would be happy about it. They would clear their name and be finally exonerated. With respect to DRM, I think this technology is mainly targeted at media right now. That being said, I don't think it will help spread free software. except for maybe free Ogg codecs and players. and a lot more Ogg-files.

10) Prove me wrong.
by _xeno_
I want you to explain if you disagree with the following and if so, why.

My understanding of this is that you were involved with the illegal distribution of copyrighted works, depriving the potential owners of money for the works (possibly - the reality may be "probably not," but...). You then received 33 months of jail time (or just under 3 years) which seems to me to be rather fair.

Based on the Operation Buccaneer information, you received counts of felony (criminal copyright infringement, probably), and conspiracy (to commit criminal copyright infringement, probably). (Both probablies are guesses based on the document.) This seems to be in line with what one would expect for charges against a ring of people whose sole goal is to steal massive quantities of software and redistribute them to as many people as want them at no charge. (The fact that there was no charge probably reduces the sentence to a degree, but the fact that it required specialized skills and involved a large collective of people acting together to commit criminal copyright infringement probably both outweigh that.)

So... why should I feel sorry for you? You got what you deserved. You stole from people and gave copies to as many people as you could. Based on the MIT press release, you illegal utilized systems you were supposed to be administrating for the purposes of illegally distributing software. As far as I can see, you got exactly what you deserved.

So - prove me wrong. Demonstrate that my understanding is flawed or that I am misunderstanding the crime. Demonstrate that it should not be a crime. Or - accept my view. Explain if you feel sorry for your actions and believe that you did indeed commit the crimes. Or come up with another response that does not fall directly between agree and disagree.

Chris:
Is this flamebait for the interviewee or what? :) I won't bite. Your question seems to start halfway through your rant, so I will start there.

You shouldn't feel sorry for me. I committed crimes that I shouldn't have committed. I stole from innocent companies and now I am feeling the repercussions. I am not asking for pity nor am I looking to be put up on a pedestal for what I have done. I am simply here to tell people what happened and that it can happen to anyone who takes part in this type of thing.

Addendum:

My nickname wasn't mentioned when the call for questions was posted, I guess I forgot to tell Robin. I was known as bigrar, BiGrAr on irc. If anyone wants to ask any questions besides the ones I have answered, you can send me email at nospam@rarcom.com. Actually you can take a look at my website as well, at www.rarcom.com (my hosting company is going to kill me). I am setting up a service there called the "Free Software Mirror Project". Through this site, I hope to start a huge mirror system for free software. When these questions are posted to slashdot, I am going to make the URL all text, so as to not completely slashdot my hosters. The mirror system is unique because it will work the same way the warez scene works. with couriers, suppliers, etc. Drop me a line if you possibly want to help me out with this.

Thanks,

- Chris

Comments

Re:Show of remorse

[modus]

Actually, at this point it probably has more to do with an eventual parole application. He's already been sentenced to 33 months, no show of remorse is going to change that.

Happy about a BSA raid?

[Entrope]

In my mind, I would think that companies who are completely compliant who are targeted by the BSA would be happy about it.

That totally ignores the disruption, effort, and other impact that such an "audit" (sometimes just a jackbooted search without any warrant) has on the company. When you come down to all the commercially licensed software that is used at the "average" company, it becomes an enormous hassle for the IT staff to:

1. Figure out who is using what
2. Produce the proofs of purchase or whatever else is necessary
3. Convince the auditors that there is no additional commercial software being used

The payware mafia are proud of saying that most audits are based on tipoffs from disgrunted ex-employees -- which scares most companies because, no matter how hard they try, they will have some disgruntled ex-employees. It doesn't have to be a tip based on fact, it just has to be believable enough to warrant an audit.

Re:Happy about a BSA raid?

[Deagol]

When he said "happy about it", the "it" in question was the DRM stuff. If all software were DRM-enabled, and a company was audited, you could basically just say "Hey, it's running, so it must be registered and legeit, so bugger off!"

A world of DRM software might reduce revenue for the BSA. "Poor, poor BSA!"

Re:Happy about a BSA raid?

[IceDiver]

"Stealing" and "theft" are generic terms that apply to anything that deprives someone of something that is rightfully theres, directly or indirectly.

Wrong. Using a specific term generically does not make it less specific. "Theft" implies the removal of a physical object (or pseudo-physical, such as money in a bank account) depriving the owner of its use. Illegal copying, while it deprives the owner of the copied work of compensation for the use of his work, does not deprive him of the work itself. That is why it is not theft. It is illegal copying, and is wrong, but it is not theft.

The BSA (also MPAA & RIAA) deliberately use the inaccurate terms "stealing" and "theft" because peoples' gut reaction (such as yours) is based on their experience of the true nature of those crimes. If they correctly used the terms "illegal copying" and "copyright ingringement" their case would arouse much less public sympathy. Their arguments are misleading in other ways, as well. It has been pointed out in other posts that they assume everyone who obtained an illegal copy would have paid for the software if the copy was not available. This is obviously misleading, and it is not the only example.

I presume that every single person who yaps about software theft not being theft has no problem with Microsoft taking GPL code and copy out with Microsoft Winux?

Of course I have problems with anyone who illegally copies someone else's work. But it is not theft. Software theft would be me shoplifting a copy of Windows from a store. This would deprive the store of a physical item (which they paid for) which they can no longer exchange for money (or something else of value). If, however, I work at that store and make a copy of the Windows CD, putting the original retail box back on the shelf, the store still has the copy for sale. My action in that case is illegal copying, not theft. The only thing the store (and MS) are out is the possibility of a sale. It is not certain that I would have bought a copy of Windows if I hadn't copied it. Thus, while making an illegal copy is wrong, it is not theft and does not have the same impact on the victim. It has some impact, but not the same. That is why equating "illegal copying" with "theft" is misleading and should be avoided.

I mean, where's the victim if you print off $100?

There isn't one. There is only a victim if I then represent the fake $100 as real and use it to purchase something. In that case I am guilty of fraud, but it is still not theft (though it is closer to it than copying is).

dictionary distinctions ring a little ridiculous

No. Dictionary distinctions are what keep us from talking about everything as if it is the same thing. Rape != Murder, though both are violent. Blue != Purple, though they can be close. Theft != Copyright Infringement, though both are wrong. Talking about things using the correct terms is important if we are to properly understand them and their consequences. Without proper understanding we can not create a proper response. It will likely be either excessive or inadequate. Right now I think it is excessive, and will remain so until the discussion is couched in the proper terms.

This is my .sig! Get your own!

Thanks, Chris!

[mosch]

I must say, I'm extremely impressed by Chris's responses. I find the standard rationalizations pathetic and sad, it's refreshing to see somebody advocating honesty on slashdot.

The standard rationalizations that I'm complaining about are, in no particular order:

• I steal because it's too expensive.
• I steal music because the RIAA is "evil".
• I steal software because it helps the company I'm stealing from.
• I steal because I don't believe in intellectual property.
• I steal music because the CD only has one song I like on it.
• I steal as a test drive.
• I steal music and movies because they are just corporate shit, not art.
• I steal because the artists don't get much profit from purchases.
• I steal MS products, because MS is "evil".

and so on and so forth.

Thank you Chris, for taking the unpopular position that copyright infringement is wrong.

Re:Thanks, Chris!

[ChannelX]

Nice rationalization. You most definitely are removing something from someone. The work is copyrighted....not the medium. Walking into a Virgin store and stealing the cd is stealing twice....the medium and the work. If you download an mp3 file that you don't own the cd for you are stealing. Pure and simple. That form of copying isn't covered under fair use.

Re:Thanks, Chris!

[ChaosDiscord]

I'm against copyright infringment. Copyright is a value tool for encouraging the creation of new works. I purchase my music, movies, books, and video games. That said, you're playing into the hands of copyright based industries. You're using inaccurate and dangerous sounding words. This sort of dialogue is giving the RIAA, the MPAA, and other copyright based industries ammunition to take our fair use rights away. Copyright is a balance, not a one way street.

Nice rationalization. You most definitely are removing something from someone. The work is copyrighted....not the medium.

If I engage in illegal copying, I have engaged in illegal copying, nothing more. Illegal copying is very distinct from theft of physical objects. "You most definately are removing something from someone." And what would that something be? The original author still has all of his copies of the work. The record store still has all their copies. The person I copied it from still has their copy. I have not taken something from anyone. I have infringed upon the copyright holders exclusive right to distribute copies, but that's different. I might have eliminated the sale of a legal copy, but it's hard to know.

Walking into a Virgin store and stealing the cd is stealing twice....the medium and the work.

That's just surreal. Copyright does not grant the author any sort of control over legally made copies. The CD in the store is legal. If someone steals the CD, they have stolen that copy, nothing more. The copyright holder has lost nothing, only the copies own (the store) has lost anything. Copyright law is completely irrelevant, the thief will be charged with good old fashioned shoplifting.

If you download an mp3 file that you don't own the cd for you are stealing. Pure and simple. That form of copying isn't covered under fair use.

If you download an mp3 file that you don't own the CD for, you are infringing copyright. Pure and simple. The copyright holder has lost nothing. He might fail to sell CD that he otherwise would have, but you're not allowed to count potential failed sales as a loss. Things are all the more complicated by people who sample CDs through MP3 and end up purchasing the CD.

Re:Show of remorse

[PunchMonkey]

Required so that he doesn't get a stiffer sentence. I don't buy it--I don't believe you really think warez is theft, but I understand why you're parroting the party line.

Or (are you ready for this?) Maybe... just maybe.... he really does think illegally distributing software is theft (and wrong).

OMG, is it possible for the "sysadmin" of a warez group to have morals and values? I think it is.

Crock of shit

[kableh]

Software companies really do lose money from piracy, why else would they support these types of organizations?

Prove it. You're telling me that if a high school kid who messes around with with Photoshop occasionally downloads a pirated copy off IRC, that Adobe loses 500 bucks?

Don't get me wrong, piracy is basically theft. I make it a point to buy software that I find useful, especially in the case of shareware, because I have a moral obligation to myself to do so. But this is the same flaw in logic the music industry uses to brand us all theives and legislate against us for the "good of the artists".

Re:Crock of shit

[NeMon'ess]

An AC said this already but I'll say it louder. Adobe doesn't lose $500, but JASC loses $90 on Paint Shop Pro the kid could have bought. If the kid pirates something by Norton, Panda which sells comparable software for less, looses a potential sale because the kid could have afforded theirs.

Re:Crock of shit

[dubiousmike]

Having worked for a number of software companies, both in audio and video, piracy isn't really of the hugest concern, albeit when the pirate is a "home user" or enthusiast. The bottom line is that the more users you have, the more popular you are, the more revenue in the long run. Why?

If I pirate Photoshop and am able to get my chops up, I can then utilize those skills in the marketplace. When I go for a job, it is HIGHLY unlikley that my workplace will provide or condone illegal copies of Photoshop. Rather, they will purchase copies, upgrades, plugins, ect.

Software companies don't really care if indiviual users pirate software. They could try to sue individuals until the cows come home, and in the end, would only serve to piss off much of their paying customer base who WILL feel a sense of pity for those getting fined, inprisoned, ect.

In the end, most folks who use priated versions of popular software end up using it professionally in an environment where the copy they are using is perfectly legal.

Software piracy, in many cases, actually increases revenue in the long run.

Re:Crock of shit

[jhines0042]

Lets take a comparative look at something somewhat similar, toll roads.

Why do toll roads exists?

Two reasons.

1) to pay for the initial building of the road
2) to pay for the continued maintenance of the road

Which do you think is more expensive? You guessed right, the initial building of the road/bridge/tunnel, whatever.

Rather than Tax Everyone in the State/Country etc... they only charge the people who use it.

Now then, if you drive on the toll road and you don't pay are you stealing? Yes. What are you stealing? The money that you were supposed to pay for the use of the service. Why were you supposed to pay it? To cover the cost of building the road.

Why should you buy software that you use? Because people spent time writing it and a company paid them to write it. That company raised capital to build the software (road) and if you use it without paying for it then you are gaining the benefit of the service without paying what the builder is asking for.

Do toll roads make a profit? Sure. Welcome to captialism.

Dude, that's gonna turn some heads

[therealmoose]

Blockquote the poster:

I am setting up a service there called the "Free Software Mirror Project"

I'm no lawyer, but a convicted warez dude setting up a "FREE SOFTWARE Mirror Project has to attract some attention....

Sad

[Master Bait]

It is so sad that he's going to jail for duplicating data. I don't give a rat's ass about the position that it is 'stealing'. These people never sold their copies.

The laws have really gone over the line. Copyright violations used to be civil matters, going into criminal if somebody sold copies for financial gain.

It is a sad time when corporate entities have so many more rights than citizens.

Good thing for open source software.

Silenced opinions

[srussell]

(Note: Chris does not advise you to follow in his footsteps.)

I don't believe that "warez" is an important enough issue to break the law over, I probably wouldn't morally approve of the activity if I thought about it enough, and I'm probably not clever enough (anymore) to crack software anyway.

However, one must wonder whether Chris' discouraging of people to follow in his footsteps is motivated by his inner feelings, or by the terms of his sentence / plea bargain / desire for early parole. The last, I can understand, for obvious reasons; the first two have always seemed just shy of legalized censorship.

Here's what's unfair

[pheared]

Both networks utilize the internet as a means to illegally distribute copyrighted works.

It is NOT a prerequisite of a P2P network to exchange illegally copyrighted works. I can have a P2P network that exchanges legal copies of files. I cannot have a warez network that distributed legal copies of files, unless you redefine what we know warez to mean.

The saddest thing

[Cryogenes]

The saddest thing in my mind is that Chris apparently feels that he deserves his punishment.

He did not act from a desire of profit, or even of fame. He did not do anything with an intent to hurt someone. His entire warez career was based on the desire to be with his friends and help them out. In a sense he lived the life that the Gnu Manifesto envisages as the ideal state of affairs: a life in which everybody may modify and copy software for all of their friends.

Do you believe in death after life?

Re:The saddest thing

[wwest4]

He did not act from a desire of profit, or even of fame. He did not do anything with an intent to hurt someone

It is indeed sad, and I personally think the punishment may be a little harsh, but if we measured the seriousness of a crime based on intent, we'd be in trouble.

"I didn't mean to crash while driving drunk"
"I didn't mean to hit that little girl while I was randomly firing bullets into the woods"
"I didn't mean to psychologically ruin that 12-year-old for life when I seduced him"

A lot of laws are meant to punish people for not thinking about the consequences of their actions. Unfortunately, since there is sometimes no way to ascertain intent, we legislate against lack of foresight. These are usually lesser crimes/penalties. 3 years seems long, still... hopefully he'll get out sooner.

Warez is NOT theft!

[Robber Baron]

It is illegal copying and/or use. Theft implies that the owner was deprived of his property. Oh and please don't trot out the old saw that warez use "steals" revenue from software manufacturers! That would only be true if the warez user would have otherwise purchased a licenced copy had a warez version not been available. It is wrong for anyone to make assumptions about the purchasing habits of individuals...a tactic often used by the aggrieved parties to inflate their "losses". In order for say...installing a "warez" MS Office to be theft, the install would have to be accompanied by backing a large truck up to a loading bay in Redmond and...

That being said, I'm starting to introduce some of my clients to the concept of GPL software and they're liking the concept of not having to pay the "Microsoft tax". The hardest part is getting past "What's the catch?" when I tell them that an Open Office license has no cost attached to it.

Ugh

[kafka93]

Everyone, Chris included, has the right to their own opinions. But, to me, this seems a hideous sell-out. One can only wonder whether there was some clause in the guy's plea bargain or whathaveyou that forces him to keep saying "piracy is bad", "stealing is wrong", without any mitigation.

Quite aside from the arguments as to whether piracy *really* costs anyone all that much, and about whether the industry grossly inflates the figures of the costs of piracy (hint: they do) - the punishment is ridiculously out of proportions with the crime. There are people who torture animals or beat their wives getting smaller sentences.

The fact is that most people dealing in warez aren't making any money from it. They're often not stealing things which they would otherwise buy. They're not causing anyone any physical pain. They're not taking money directly from anyone's wallet. And yet these people - often, young kids who spend most of their time just chatting with one another - are faced with the risk of *years* in prison. This is ridiculous. Irrespective of whether you think piracy is "wrong", I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anyone genuinely thinks that someone should be *sent to jail* for this kind of thing - least of all when, for example, people who drive drunk often aren't sent to jail. It is *wrong* that crimes that ostensibly affect big business carry a greater punishment than do many crimes against humanity. It is *wrong* that people should be locked up for several years for this kind of thing: who amongst us doesn't have the odd mp3 lying around, the odd tape copied from a friend, the odd copy of Office made on numerous computers?

The fact that everyone's doing it doesn't mean that it's not 'wrong', of course. But can anyone really endorse having _two years_ of someone's life being taken from them for the sake of something which almost everyone is doing?

This makes me sick.

Morality Propaganda

[Srin Tuar]

Though what he did was illegal, I just dont feel it to be immoral. Sharing information or music or ideas just doesnt raise the sin-o-meter at all.

The fact is that something which is not naturally immoral (sharing) can be made to give people pangs of guilt through conditioning. The "IP" establishment thinks that if they continue to pound into peoples heads that "Copying is stealing" and "Sharing is evil", then people will actually start to believe it. (In fact it does work to a limited extent) What will actually happen is that the harder they push the party line, the more people will see through it, and the harder they enforce the rules, the more people will protest them (or realize they exist at all).

At some point in the future, the whole copyright cartel is going to falter. Its not human nature to hoarde information, opinions, or ideas. It is in our nature to share ideas that we have discovered, and hopefully our economies will have enough time to get out of the way and figure out new business models before its too late.

net connection died?

[misterhaan]

I was sitting at my computer chatting with a fellow DOD member on IRC. All of a sudden I noticed my net connection died. When I went to walk out the door, a U.S. Customs agent met me.

my cable modem connection dies daily! i can just see warez guys experiencing this and running to kill their circuit breakers and lock all the doors . . . never to go outside again!

stealing != copyright infringement

[swm]

it is absolutely wrong to steal software from a company. Whether it is ones or zeros or bags of money, it is stealing.

If it's bags of money, it's called stealing.
If it's ones and zeros, it's called copyright infringement.

They are different things.
That's why we have different words for them.

What I keep thinking...

[chrysrobyn]

That is the wrong way to think about it. You are asking yourself if it is worth something to commit a crime. What you should be asking yourself is, if what you are doing is fundamentally wrong. If it is (and I would say that it is) then stop doing it.

I wonder how fast his lawyer can type, or if his lawyer just dictates slashdot responses to his secretary.

I'm married, have a paid-for car, a good job, and share a house with the bank. I've got responsibilities. At this point, I'm using 100% paid for (or free or Free) software. Please allow that fact to color my response.

Everything in life is a cost-benefit analysis. Sure, the MBA people will tell you they came up with it, and they're the only people who truly understand how it works, and now I wonder if they're right. There's a risk in driving to work every day. Is it right? Well, it puts money in the grubby hands of a greedy corporation that cars about the environment to the extent required by the EPA. I could get killed. Therefore I shouldn't drive? Certainly are downsides to working, not to mention risks. Flying home for Christmas to visit the in-laws? Well, that involves the pollution of the airplane, more money in the hands of terrorist supporting oil barons, and again, that risk of death on my part.

Everything in life is a trade-off. Just sticking with what's right isn't enough -- few things are inherantly right. Just sticking with what's legislated isn't right. Now, say I am interviewing students for a job that involves using windows on a daily basis. I'll choose the candidate who pirated windows to get practice over the candidate who did the "right thing" and has honestly never seen windows because he can't afford it. Explain to me what is right there? Those who are too poor to "do right" shouldn't take risks?

Take a survey of college students. Some will certainly agree, but many won't. Don't bother asking attorneys, or people worried about their next parole board, but ask people with little money and a great concern for their futures.

Now, back to Mr. Tresco's situation. Is it "right" to hijack Institute computers to violate copyrights? One could easily argue the "Robin Hood" perspective; less easily, one could attempt to learn how much software enters MIT illegally then compute a net flow.

Let's assume that Mr. Tresco, or someone like him, is single, and has very few obligations. What's the risk??? Get caught, stripped of your job, sent to jail for almost 3 years. No freedom. Potentially unkind things happen there. If done well, someone could take advantage of the free room and board, earn a GED, BA or BS, and put together an outline on your experiences and sell the book/movie rights on how you're a better person. There are a lot of people out here for whom jail is not a punishment, but rather a new place to live with new opportunities. "What's right" is for the ethicists. Cost benefit analysis for the rest of us.

Clean record, time with my wife, commute to work for me, please.

Re:Pirating Software is Wrong...

[Robin Hood]

Besides, they're probably making him use Windows.

Wouldn't that be cruel and unusual punishment?

Re:Why is this a CRIME. BECAUSE people DO get HURT

[darkPHi3er]

without taking a position on the DOD case(one way or the other, i don't know the specifics of the case well enough)

It's a ***FELONY*** because it's a combination of a variety of PROPERTY crimes, including THEFT, FRAUD and DISTRIBUTION of stolen property.

Would we argue the nature of this if someone had broken in an electronics warehouse or a bookstore or a Costco and taken an equivalent dollar amount of goods and given them out to their friends?

I doubt it.

However, because software is "intangible" in nature compared to a frozen cheese pizza or bottle of Jack or Sony Walkman, some of us look at it differently.

However, the manufacturers of the software have to pay ALL those same expenses that Sony does.

They have to pay executives, engineers, marketing staff, assembly workers, packaging, warehousing, shipping, et al.

When you distribute a stolen copy of a piece of software and by so doing, reduce the numbers of copies that will be sold, you make it harder for a company to survive.

While it's easy to imagine that every s/w company is a MS, Oracle, IBM or Sun, it's not true.

Most s/w companies are much smaller and are fighting for their survival on a daily basis.

And we all have to wonder what would have happened to our entire marketplace, if their had been less piracy.

What would have been the fate of WordPerfect Corp, Lotus, Novell, and many other dead products if there had been less piracy?

What impact on Apple's conversion from a $10BN a year company to $1+BN company?

There have been many jobs lost, products destroyed and careers sidetracked in our industry by sales declines.

Sone of these SURELY have been as a result of warez.

If you lost your job and maybe your family, and knew warez had been at least partially responsible, how would you feel about warez?

Re:About to spend 33 months in the pokey?

[Chewie]

Three years with no sex? That's cruel! That's inhumane! That's....what? Oh, wait... That's my life.

"I mean, look at you! You're the kind of guy who would beg for sex! And I should know, we can smell our own." --Brodie

Somewhat misleading stats

[realgone]

Fine, fine -- I'll be the one to club the baby seal. Yes, I do doubt the claim and the statistics used to back it up. Here's why: The RAINN release cites this NCPA study as the source for those "expected sentence" stats. What the release omitted, however, was the NCPA's definition of "expected sentence," which reads as follows:

"The best overall measure of the potential cost to a criminal of committing crimes is 'expected punishment.' Roughly speaking, expected punishment is the number of days in prison a typical criminal can expect to serve per crime, as determined by the probabilities of being apprehended, prosecuted, convicted and going to prison, and the median months served for each crime.

Rape has long been considered an under-reported crime that's tough to prosecute (often ending up as a 'he-said, she-said' situation at trial). When all this gets averaged into the derived "expected sentence," you end up with a number that looks far skimpier than the actual sentences handed down to convicted rapists.

As for the unweighted numbers? Here's some data from a US DoJ report, which combines first- and second-degree rape:

The average sentence for criminals convicted of rape in the United States (and released in 1992) is 117 months. The average time served is 65 months, which equates to 56 percent of the actual sentence served.

Still leinent by many standards, but not nearly the disaster that the RAINN release makes it out to be.

Re:Show of remorse

[HyperbolicParabaloid]

Also not true. On the same page, in the paragraph before the one your quote is:


The Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 abolished parole eligibility for federal offenders - except military offenders -- who commit offenses on or after November 1, 1987.


So there is no longer any parole in the federal system.

Re:Hypothetical: could he leave the country?

[Directrix1]

minimum security country club

Minimum security country club? More like federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.

Talk about conceited

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy is facing 3 years in prison for copying software, and you fuckers have the gall to complain that his responses are "insincere"?

I have a pretty good feeling you'd also be pretty insincere if your ass was facing 3 years behind bars. I bet you'd kiss as much ass as you could, just like he is. Hypocrites, all of you.