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C# and CLI Fast-tracked to ISO

Posted by Hemos on from the get-yer-ISO-on dept.

jdfox writes "It wasn't that long ago that ECMA approved standardisation of Microsoft C# and the associated Common Language Infrastructure. Now they have used the "fast-track" agreement between ECMA and ISO to move ISO ratification forward quickly, according to this article on CNET. We should see ISO C# by January.
Maybe this will finally persuade Sun to take their leash off of Java."

9 of 83 comments (clear)

  1. And we care because... by glenstar · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't think it really matters whether there is a C# ISO standard or not. People are either going to use it or they are not. Did corporations flock to using Java^H^H^H^HECMAScript) just because it became "standardized"?

    The whole thing is moot.

    1. Re:And we care because... by pizza_milkshake · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Did corporations flock to using Java^H^H^H^HECMAScript) just because it became "standardized"?

      As far as I know, one of the major complaints about Java is the fact that it isn't standardized by an outside party like ECMA or ISO, but by Sun itself, meaning developers have as much say in the Java standard as they do over MS's VB. (please let me know if i'm wrong about this).

      personally, I've taken a look at C# and like it. of course MS claims it's more related to C++ thna Java, but C# has more in common with Java than anthing else.

      I assume the reasoning behind the standardization is to compete with Java... MS hasn't really had its own enterprise-level language before this (the candidates would be VB, which IMHO sucks and forces you to stick with Windoze and C++ which doesn't mean you have to use VC++). personally I'm much more likely to use it if its standardized, because I know MS can't easily pull off an "upgrade" or change the EULA and break/change the language for their benefit.

      of course, by the time C# is ISO standardized (assuming it will be) the MONO project should be well enough along to use C# seriously... of course since the languages are so similiar why not just use Java in the first place?

      lots of questions, not many answers.

    2. Re:And we care because... by Da+VinMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      of course since the languages are so similiar why not just use Java in the first place?

      That's somewhat true from a pure language standpoint, but I think you'll find developing for the two environments to be *vastly* different in terms of all the little details that matter and can make life pleasant or a living hell. Whether you're making your life pleasant or hellish is a function of how much you have to swim against the current in your current organization to use one tool set or the other.

      Surprise, surprise, this isn't a technical issue. Within the context of a corporate operational environment, it's a cultural issue.

      I think Microsoft is correct in stating that language choice is no longer the most relevant problem in software development anymore (if it ever really was).

      --
      Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
    3. Re:And we care because... by mattc58 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      of course since the languages are so similiar why not just use Java in the first place?
      Yeah, it's not really all about language choice at this point.

      You'd chose .NET over J2EE for:

      Superb development environment for much greater productivity. Perfectly integrated database, XML, source control, web page, middle tier, etc. etc. development

      Well thought-out framework with all sorts of good stuff already done for you

      ASP.NET WebForms--really a fantastic way to program web pages

      Multiple languages in one project

      Performance on the Windows platform

    4. Re:And we care because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful


      As far as I know, one of the major complaints about Java is the fact that it isn't standardized by an outside party like ECMA or ISO, but by Sun itself, meaning developers have as much say in the Java standard as they do over MS's VB. (please let me know if i'm wrong about this).

      Yes, you are wrong.

      Java is standardized and evolved by the sun community process. Nearly every company having a market in enterprice Java is participating.

      A lot of individual members are participating as well.

      E.g. the new java compiler for jsr014, very likely the standard compiler distributed with Java 1.5, is written by Martin Odersky and his team.

      A lot of standards around J2EE are heavy influenced by third parties. E.G. Appache Tomcat is now the official reference implementation of the Servlet API of J2EE.

      JDO, the new way of persistance in Java is heavyly influenced by the major Database companies and the leading oo database companies like POET.

      Best Regards,
      angel'o'sphere

      Sorry, I moderated this thread and thats why I post anonymous.

    5. Re:And we care because... by Twylite · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, one of the major complaints about Java is that it continues to get more bloated. There are a few vocal OSS advocates who can't bear to have freely available software being though of as "free", because as everyone knows its more important to know how to make beer than to have some given to you.

      Unfortunately, IMHO, Sun hasn't kept a tight enough leash on Java. It started with an excellent vision, but then let the "community" get in on the act and push for every more standards, without really considering the benefit.

      Its very much like the SourceForge effect. Start a project, put some ideas on a web page, and wait for someone to do the work. The JCP has provided a lot of solutions by providing APIs to develop against, but there is no implementation.

      Worse, the APIs are often poor and bloated as a result of a lack of proper domain understanding, and provision for any conceivable implementation.

      Java and its developers would be better served by providing additional libraries where they are warranted - not standards - and leaving the market (or OSS) to fill in the gaps with components. It has done wonders in the Microsoft world.

      Some cases in point: Apache's log4j and regexp packages are widely considered the de facto standards, and have been around since well before JDK 1.4 was in development. They are also considered technically superior to the functionality which has appeared in 1.4 as a result of the JCP.

      In fact the JSR for regular expressions is reads like a child's christmas list, as it is part of the NIO request, and includes a desire for printf-style formatting.

      Sun did an excellent job with the design of Java. Its a pity there are a bunch of wannabees who are too shortsighted to see the value of leaving the control of the language's development in the hands of technical experts, and providing or acquiring what they specifically need in their own back yard as components.

      --
      i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
  2. What good is it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    C# will not get me a job as a systems developer. C++ will. C will. Java maybe. C# more than likely not. C# will only benefit those doing Windows app development. Of course, I may be wrong and if I am, please enlighten me because I'd like to learn the language but don't want to waste my time on something that isn't marketable.

    1. Re:What good is it by uradu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > C# will not get me a job as a systems developer [...]
      > don't want to waste my time on something that isn't marketable.

      Ok, so you're saying that systems development jobs are more plentiful than general desktop app development? Which universe are you living in? This is regardless as to the merits of C#.

  3. A good thing by kawika · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A standard will at least give the Mono folks something to point to if Microsoft decides to move the goalposts with later changes to C# or the CLR. We need an open-source implementation of this because Microsoft has the right idea.

    The C# versus Java debate is a red herring that's most interesting to language bigots. There's a more important difference between the philosophies. Sun wants the world to write all its code in Pure Java, abandoning the non-Sun environments they currently have. This is a great idea for full software programmer employment, we can spend all our time rewriting the world's code in Java. Not.

    Microsoft wants to let people to migrate the stuff they have slaved over for the past 25 or so years into a shiny new Common Language Runtime environment. Yes, there is a new C# language, but the front end can be other languages as well. With minimal changes, a business can take the core of a Cobol program that has proven itself over the past 10 years, recompile it with a Cobol compiler that generates CLR, and drop it down into a new distributed environment. They can write the web interface to that Cobol core in any language they want, including C#, VB, Javascript, Fortran, or even Java (J++) if that's what their current programming staff is trained to use.

    For a moment, ignore the language bigotry and disregard whether Microsoft might implement this in some way that will hurt their competitors. Which approach seems to be the most logical to you? Rewrite all the world's code or reuse what you can?