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C# and CLI Fast-tracked to ISO

Posted by Hemos on from the get-yer-ISO-on dept.

jdfox writes "It wasn't that long ago that ECMA approved standardisation of Microsoft C# and the associated Common Language Infrastructure. Now they have used the "fast-track" agreement between ECMA and ISO to move ISO ratification forward quickly, according to this article on CNET. We should see ISO C# by January.
Maybe this will finally persuade Sun to take their leash off of Java."

10 of 83 comments (clear)

  1. And we care because... by glenstar · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't think it really matters whether there is a C# ISO standard or not. People are either going to use it or they are not. Did corporations flock to using Java^H^H^H^HECMAScript) just because it became "standardized"?

    The whole thing is moot.

    1. Re:And we care because... by pizza_milkshake · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Did corporations flock to using Java^H^H^H^HECMAScript) just because it became "standardized"?

      As far as I know, one of the major complaints about Java is the fact that it isn't standardized by an outside party like ECMA or ISO, but by Sun itself, meaning developers have as much say in the Java standard as they do over MS's VB. (please let me know if i'm wrong about this).

      personally, I've taken a look at C# and like it. of course MS claims it's more related to C++ thna Java, but C# has more in common with Java than anthing else.

      I assume the reasoning behind the standardization is to compete with Java... MS hasn't really had its own enterprise-level language before this (the candidates would be VB, which IMHO sucks and forces you to stick with Windoze and C++ which doesn't mean you have to use VC++). personally I'm much more likely to use it if its standardized, because I know MS can't easily pull off an "upgrade" or change the EULA and break/change the language for their benefit.

      of course, by the time C# is ISO standardized (assuming it will be) the MONO project should be well enough along to use C# seriously... of course since the languages are so similiar why not just use Java in the first place?

      lots of questions, not many answers.

    2. Re:And we care because... by Da+VinMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      of course since the languages are so similiar why not just use Java in the first place?

      That's somewhat true from a pure language standpoint, but I think you'll find developing for the two environments to be *vastly* different in terms of all the little details that matter and can make life pleasant or a living hell. Whether you're making your life pleasant or hellish is a function of how much you have to swim against the current in your current organization to use one tool set or the other.

      Surprise, surprise, this isn't a technical issue. Within the context of a corporate operational environment, it's a cultural issue.

      I think Microsoft is correct in stating that language choice is no longer the most relevant problem in software development anymore (if it ever really was).

      --
      Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
    3. Re:And we care because... by Twylite · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, one of the major complaints about Java is that it continues to get more bloated. There are a few vocal OSS advocates who can't bear to have freely available software being though of as "free", because as everyone knows its more important to know how to make beer than to have some given to you.

      Unfortunately, IMHO, Sun hasn't kept a tight enough leash on Java. It started with an excellent vision, but then let the "community" get in on the act and push for every more standards, without really considering the benefit.

      Its very much like the SourceForge effect. Start a project, put some ideas on a web page, and wait for someone to do the work. The JCP has provided a lot of solutions by providing APIs to develop against, but there is no implementation.

      Worse, the APIs are often poor and bloated as a result of a lack of proper domain understanding, and provision for any conceivable implementation.

      Java and its developers would be better served by providing additional libraries where they are warranted - not standards - and leaving the market (or OSS) to fill in the gaps with components. It has done wonders in the Microsoft world.

      Some cases in point: Apache's log4j and regexp packages are widely considered the de facto standards, and have been around since well before JDK 1.4 was in development. They are also considered technically superior to the functionality which has appeared in 1.4 as a result of the JCP.

      In fact the JSR for regular expressions is reads like a child's christmas list, as it is part of the NIO request, and includes a desire for printf-style formatting.

      Sun did an excellent job with the design of Java. Its a pity there are a bunch of wannabees who are too shortsighted to see the value of leaving the control of the language's development in the hands of technical experts, and providing or acquiring what they specifically need in their own back yard as components.

      --
      i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
  2. ISO's 7 layer OSI really beat non-std TCP/IP by mekkab · · Score: 5, Funny

    I gotta say I think its great for my career that I support a 7 layer OSI kernel stack. I mean, it was the first ISO network standard! And that really means something in todays "just get it done" business climate. I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities out there for me!

    De Juris standards don't mean squat. I'll take De facto every day.

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
  3. Re:What good is it by uradu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > C# will not get me a job as a systems developer [...]
    > don't want to waste my time on something that isn't marketable.

    Ok, so you're saying that systems development jobs are more plentiful than general desktop app development? Which universe are you living in? This is regardless as to the merits of C#.

  4. A good thing by kawika · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A standard will at least give the Mono folks something to point to if Microsoft decides to move the goalposts with later changes to C# or the CLR. We need an open-source implementation of this because Microsoft has the right idea.

    The C# versus Java debate is a red herring that's most interesting to language bigots. There's a more important difference between the philosophies. Sun wants the world to write all its code in Pure Java, abandoning the non-Sun environments they currently have. This is a great idea for full software programmer employment, we can spend all our time rewriting the world's code in Java. Not.

    Microsoft wants to let people to migrate the stuff they have slaved over for the past 25 or so years into a shiny new Common Language Runtime environment. Yes, there is a new C# language, but the front end can be other languages as well. With minimal changes, a business can take the core of a Cobol program that has proven itself over the past 10 years, recompile it with a Cobol compiler that generates CLR, and drop it down into a new distributed environment. They can write the web interface to that Cobol core in any language they want, including C#, VB, Javascript, Fortran, or even Java (J++) if that's what their current programming staff is trained to use.

    For a moment, ignore the language bigotry and disregard whether Microsoft might implement this in some way that will hurt their competitors. Which approach seems to be the most logical to you? Rewrite all the world's code or reuse what you can?

  5. Re:What good is it by j3110 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Monster.com begs to differ:
    Java: 961
    C++: 827
    C#: 118
    C: 885 (also returns C++/C# matches... some want both, few want just C)

    Java + C++: 381

    I'll give you two guesses of why someone needs to know both Java and C++. (Hint, they aren't moving from Java to C++.)

    C# has went from 0->118 in a few months. I think it's surpassed C already. You should have said
    Java absolutely. C++ absolutely. C# soon enough. C not in another few months.

    The programming community is moving to an object oriented philosophy, mostly because XP is common place and XP pretty much requires OOP.

    Given monster.com isn't the all knowing oracle, but I think it does show a trend. In the end, there will be two options for high level languages: Java and .Net. If for no other reason than portability and OO.

    --
    Karma Clown
  6. The only truly 7-layer implementation I've seen... by devphil · · Score: 3, Funny


    ...is the Taco Bell 7-layer burrito. Every other network vendor has played games under the hood, collapsing some of the layers into one.

    (That's actually a quote, but I can't recall who said it. And I'm too tired to google for it.)

    --
    You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
  7. Re:Concerning some grammar by jdfox · · Score: 5, Funny

    > Could someone please enlighten me with a grammatical explanation of the "off of"
    > construct above?

    I suppose you mean:

    Could someone please enlighten me with a grammatical explanation of the above-mentioned construct "off of"?

    But while you're ending your sentences with prepositions while whining about perceived Crimes Of Grammar on a a tech blog, why not amuse yourself with this joke:

    A Southerner stopped a stranger on the Harvard campus and asked, "Could you please tell me where the library is at?" The stranger responded, "Educated people never end their sentences with a preposition." The Southerner replied, "Could you please tell me where the library is at, asshole?"