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C# and CLI Fast-tracked to ISO
jdfox writes "It wasn't that long ago that ECMA approved standardisation of Microsoft C# and the associated Common Language Infrastructure. Now they have used the "fast-track" agreement between ECMA and ISO to move ISO ratification forward quickly, according to this article on CNET. We should see ISO C# by January.
Maybe this will finally persuade Sun to take their leash off of Java."
Maybe this will finally persuade Sun to take their leash off of Java."
The whole thing is moot.
I gotta say I think its great for my career that I support a 7 layer OSI kernel stack. I mean, it was the first ISO network standard! And that really means something in todays "just get it done" business climate. I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities out there for me!
De Juris standards don't mean squat. I'll take De facto every day.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
> C# will not get me a job as a systems developer [...]
> don't want to waste my time on something that isn't marketable.
Ok, so you're saying that systems development jobs are more plentiful than general desktop app development? Which universe are you living in? This is regardless as to the merits of C#.
In my experience, if you catch a Mircrsoft technology in the height of it's marketing buzz, you will get paid big to implment it. For example, Active Directory or in my personal experience ADSI (which is just a common library for Active Directory)
This isn't the sig you are looking for... Carry on...
Absolutely correct. The trick (if money is your main concern...as mine is) is to find out what'll be hot for the next 1-3 years and learn it. In 1.5 years you should be reassessing for the next cycle. Best way for a developer to make cash is to follow the hype trends. I'd love to be a system programmer but I'm a web and app programmer because that is the space where it is easiest to find jobs. I've been a C++/VB COM, DCOM, and COM+/PHP/ASP/Java/C# developer at different times in my career...but then I'm a greedy bastard. Oh and I've only been working in the "real world" for about 7 years if that gives you any idea how many times I've bounced aroudn from technology to technology to stay as marketable as possible.
A standard will at least give the Mono folks something to point to if Microsoft decides to move the goalposts with later changes to C# or the CLR. We need an open-source implementation of this because Microsoft has the right idea.
The C# versus Java debate is a red herring that's most interesting to language bigots. There's a more important difference between the philosophies. Sun wants the world to write all its code in Pure Java, abandoning the non-Sun environments they currently have. This is a great idea for full software programmer employment, we can spend all our time rewriting the world's code in Java. Not.
Microsoft wants to let people to migrate the stuff they have slaved over for the past 25 or so years into a shiny new Common Language Runtime environment. Yes, there is a new C# language, but the front end can be other languages as well. With minimal changes, a business can take the core of a Cobol program that has proven itself over the past 10 years, recompile it with a Cobol compiler that generates CLR, and drop it down into a new distributed environment. They can write the web interface to that Cobol core in any language they want, including C#, VB, Javascript, Fortran, or even Java (J++) if that's what their current programming staff is trained to use.
For a moment, ignore the language bigotry and disregard whether Microsoft might implement this in some way that will hurt their competitors. Which approach seems to be the most logical to you? Rewrite all the world's code or reuse what you can?
M$ has a tech that they call It Just Works (IJW) that, suprisingly, does!
.NET languages is a pain, but it DOES NOT require rewriting.
We converted 2+ million lines of c/c++ code to CLR in a matter of days.
Now, making some of those c++ classes interact with other
I do everything the voices in my head tell me to...
Ok, so you're saying that systems development jobs are more plentiful than general desktop app development? Which universe are you living in?
Sounds like The Real World to me. Relatively few companies actually write general purpose desktop applications, but almost every business in the world of any decent size employs in-house developers writing custom code that never sees general market exposure. I can get a job anywhere doing this kind of work. Well, that is, when the market turns around :-\
Or maybe we have a different understanding of the semantics of "system" or "systems developer". To me system does not just (or even most often) mean operating system.
Monster.com begs to differ:
.Net. If for no other reason than portability and OO.
Java: 961
C++: 827
C#: 118
C: 885 (also returns C++/C# matches... some want both, few want just C)
Java + C++: 381
I'll give you two guesses of why someone needs to know both Java and C++. (Hint, they aren't moving from Java to C++.)
C# has went from 0->118 in a few months. I think it's surpassed C already. You should have said
Java absolutely. C++ absolutely. C# soon enough. C not in another few months.
The programming community is moving to an object oriented philosophy, mostly because XP is common place and XP pretty much requires OOP.
Given monster.com isn't the all knowing oracle, but I think it does show a trend. In the end, there will be two options for high level languages: Java and
Karma Clown
...is the Taco Bell 7-layer burrito. Every other network vendor has played games under the hood, collapsing some of the layers into one.
(That's actually a quote, but I can't recall who said it. And I'm too tired to google for it.)
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
> Could someone please enlighten me with a grammatical explanation of the "off of"
> construct above?
I suppose you mean:
Could someone please enlighten me with a grammatical explanation of the above-mentioned construct "off of"?
But while you're ending your sentences with prepositions while whining about perceived Crimes Of Grammar on a a tech blog, why not amuse yourself with this joke:
A Southerner stopped a stranger on the Harvard campus and asked, "Could you please tell me where the library is at?" The stranger responded, "Educated people never end their sentences with a preposition." The Southerner replied, "Could you please tell me where the library is at, asshole?"
This move is clearly designed to help C# and .NET get into classrooms. Currently C++ is used by many schools because the faculty wanted to teach something that had been "standardized". They don't want to teach a language that's going to be obsolete in a year. This is particularly true at two year schools, where there isn't time to teach multiple languages, and the students are intending to go straight into the job market.
Of course, then these same schools go ahead and use Visual C++, so standards go right out the window. But the buzzword remains powerful in their purchasing decisions. For this very reason, Java is only being hesitantly adopted.
If Microsoft can get C# standardized, they won't have to use the standard. They just need it for marketing.
Our Session layer and Presentation layer are state-machine pass-thru's!
Quick, I gotta run for the border just to pass compliance testing...
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Um... How many decent programmers do you think there are in the world? Quite a few, that's for sure, and many of them program in C, C++ or Java. Under the present circumstances, many of those are sitting in stable jobs, and their employers are keeping a stable staff, so there's not much going on in that market.
The only places the industry is really moving now are bad/unlucky people who've been hurt by the recession, and buzzwordites who follow wherever the hype takes them. Given this climate, it's not surprising that buzzwordy languages have lots of job offers, but that certainly doesn't make them mainstream, and is no guarantee that things will stay that way in the long term.
XP is commonplace? I've never seen a professional development company that uses it on a widespread basis. Some of the better guys have looked at it, and plenty of places have been implementing parts of what XP recommends since long before the hype. But it's hardly what I'd call mainstream, however much those who evangelise on its behalf might like to disagree.
As for OOP, if anything, I think the market is starting to realise that it isn't a panacea. Everyone and his brother has tried it, a lot have liked it more than what's gone before, but I'm waiting for some of the more recent developments in programming theory to hit the mainstream now, not for the next big OO revolution.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I wouldn't bet my career on it. Going with Microsoft's latest and greatest isn't always a sure thing, as anyone who went into Visual J++ found out a few years back, and anyone with lots of VB6 background is discovering right now. Microsoft has already dropped several major parts of .NET faced with, essentially, a complete lack of interest in them (which was widely predicted by anyone who watched the industry months earlier). What makes you think there will be any serious advances in C#/.NET's CLR in the future if they don't take off either?
If I could take a language like C++ or Java, which has a wide range of applications and is widely adopted across the industry, or a language like C# that's much hyped but currently little used, I'd go for the safe bet if I knew I needed a rent cheque next month.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
> To me system does not just [...] mean operating system.
I'm sorry but that's the traditional meaning of the term. If you list "systems programming" on your resume, most people would expect you to be able to write device drivers and such.
No, it's just a silly, in-jokey reference to René Magritte, the late Belgian artist whose work I love. I'd guess Electric Theatre were making a similar reference, but I haven't seen the play.
u ni-sb.de/~lynx/magritte/
More on da man Magritte here:
http://www.magritte.com/
http://www.asta.
There are many good reasons to visit Belgium, but Magritte and the beer are my two favourites.