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Gentoo Linux Reloaded
nitro322 writes "Daniel Robbins, the leading developer for Gentoo Linux, has written an excellent O'Reilly Network article covering many of the various features of Gentoo, what's coming in version 1.4 (due out SOON), and why you should give it a try. If you haven't tried Gentoo yet, what are you waiting for?"
Lets defuse this bomb before it happens.
:-)
Gentoo is a really nice distro. I wouldn't say it's for newbies and it's definitely geared for developers. The install isn't a cinch but it's very thorough. Before we get into a holy war with sides saying Sorcerer is better or Slackware this or Redhat that - lets try and keep the discussion about Gentoo itself... what is good or bad about it - and maybe help out Dan Robbins with useful constructive suggestions. Now... have at it
Have a Happy.
I'm waiting for Mandrake as my desktop and Debian as my server to fail spectacularly to live up to my expectations of a desktop or server OS.
When they do so fail, I'll try Gentoo, among other things.
It's been a few years. I'm not predicting spectacular failure anytime in the next few months.
fifth sigma, inc.
Back when I started Linux around '97 or '98, Slackware was the "in" distro. People who started using Slackware back then did so because they thought they were 7337 and at every opportunity they would espouse its benefits. I started with Slackware too and am happy I did and probably was an annoying Slackware prophet from time to time. But I can't help but laugh when I see the similarities between some of the younger Gentoo users and the Slackware users of yesteryear. These particular Gentoo users seem to think they're hot stuff and mock anyone who uses another distro, or at the very least dismiss their 7337ness. Yet, if everyone started using Gentoo like droves of users use RedHat or Mandrake, I'm sure Gentoo would lose a great deal of its appeal for some of these users. I suppose the torch has been passed from the "Slackware is for hardcore users", to "Gentoo is for hardcore users" mantra.
Because I just finished installing and configuring all of my Linux boxes with either RH 7.3 or RH 8.0
Besides, I like the guy with the red brim a little better than the backwards, purple pac-man.
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Frankly, I've got several computers, Linux or otherwise, all performing their tasks and they're Working Just Fine(tm). Why risk them?
If you haven't tried Gentoo yet, what are you waiting for?
I'm waiting for it to have over 4000 packages tested and available. I'm waiting for it to have widely available high performace mirrors that serve binaries, so I only have to compile when I want to, and I can be using that new piece of software in seconds. I'm waiting for it to have a proven track record for strict filesystem hirearchy standard compliance (the same standard each release, please). I'm waiting for it to run on all the platforms I currently use (still missing arm). I'm waiting for it to have a dedicated team of hundreds of developers that release security updates in hours (In binary form so that I don't have to wait for compilation for security). I'm waiting for transparent integration of non-"free" software into the standard package installation system. And most importantly, I'm waiting to find any reason why my current system may be insufficient, or even sub-optimal, because I don't feel the need to fix what isn't broken.
Glad you asked?
To all those who have mentioned the difficulty of the install, when I made the switch to Gentoo I had only installed maybe 5 or 10 other Linux boxen (Redhat, Mandrake, etc...), and Gentoo wasn't all that different.
/.; if you don't have that approach then perhaps that is why you don't like Gentoo.
It was more INVOLVED, but not more difficult per say. If you print out the instructions from the site and follow them, good things will happen.
For those who think that another distribution (especially a source-based one like this) is pointless and only for the uber-geeks, think again. The idea behind distributions like Gentoo is CONTROL. When you have finished your first Gentoo and compiled everything for your specific hardware it is a distinctly different feeling than throwing in a Redhat disk and pressing 'go'.
Those attracted to Gentoo are those attracted to having everything just the way they like it on their computers (and arguably in their lives as well). It's an approach to computing that many have here on
dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
exactly. we're real users, not lusers. what the !#)&^)!^& do we need a pretty installer for that never makes the right choices about what to install or configure?
my server still runs debian stable but i'm quite happy with gentoo 1.2 on my laptop because of how easy it is to install only the software i want, running -modern versions-, configured the way i want rather than configured using whatever arcane mechanism the other distributions all choose to use. my server works, so i won't try to fix it.
debian is good. gentoo is fun. i like fun.
"I'm waiting for Linux to get where FreeBSD is for ease of building..."
that's where gentoo is. the *point* of gentoo is that it uses the ports system... so congratulations to you, no more waiting
got drum'n'bass?
http://mp3.com/vitriolix
...is the one they're not using.
Gento is source based, meaning big compile times. However, it has the possible advantage of very small downloads. Imagine, that instead of downloading all the source packages for KDE 3.0.4, you simply had to download the patch level difference for the source from KDE 3.0.3. The diff file would probably be less than 500k.
Of course, patch files would be too difficult to manage, so why not set up an rsync or cvs server, and use cvsup to grab the differences. Not from the production cvs, but from another set up by Gentoo. This would turn a bandwidth hungry dist into the lightest one of all. After downloading the initial sources, the updates would be noticably smaller than binary dists.
Of course, gentoo doesn't do this, but I use it anyway. :-)
What's even more interesting is how many people have left Debian for Gentoo. Debian users are some of the most loyal I know, and yet many of them have simply moved on. I'm guessing Debian blew it with the long delay's between releases.
Don't think so; you see, I do believe that Gentoo is probably very nice, but most ppl I know that use it (disclaimer: most != all) and used to run Debian were either ppl that never really settled in any distibution because they wipped they're systems clean when they heard that a *new* version of LinuxSomething was released or ppl that used Debian because it was perceived as more hardcore. It's almost the same reason why many of them after 3 months of Gentoo wipe their systems to install FreeBSD and became FreeBSD zealots, only to install OpenBSD on it later because it's da bomb, except that latter on NetBSD catches their attention because in some weird movie they saw a über elite hacker used it. In the end they either begin to run Plan9 or simply go back to Windows, in which they will fondly remenber they're wild days while reading mail in Outlook.
Debian release cycles are indeed an issue, and an issue that it's trying to be fixed, but interestingly enough the uses that are drawn to Gentto are the ones that knew and used the unstable Debian branch, so the release delay was not really an issue. Some people just prefer to move to other things that for one reason or another they prefer... taking from other comments in this discussion one would gather that from some ppl Debian stable is the reason they don't change their OS, since stability is what works for them. For others a BSD-like ports systems is crucial, thus Gentto, Sorcerer, etc.
cheers,
fsmunoz
I think people underestimate the draw an installation that takes hard work. I believe a lot of people came to linux for no other reason than they like to figure things out and problem solve. As the distributions get easier to install the troubleshooters have less to figure out. Enter Gentoo and LFS.
Close, but not quite.
According to the Bible, there were two men with that honour. The other is Elijah - 2 Kings 2:11
I've always considered the Enoch passage to be quite vague - Genesis 5:24
Also he wasn't the only Enoch in the bible, Cain also had a son named Enoch - Genesis 4:17.
Perhaps the distro saw itself as the son of a murderer?
Read more of this story at Slashdot.Read more of this story at Slashdot.Read more of this story at Slashdot.
Freebsd has had SoftUpdates for UFS (disk file system) for quite a while. this does a more or less journaling type feature, although as far as I understand it's not quite a full JFS. it works nicely though, and no more FSCK. that's a bonus in my book.
and as far as hardware support, it's not really a matter of HOW much stuff is supported but how WELL it's supported. this is important when you actually want to do work, like have production servers tick along forever without randomly crashing. I wouldn't even begin to pretend that Free supports as much hardware as linux does, but that's mostly because there isn't a legion of 13 year old kids writing a slew of crap drivers for things like usb webcams and cheap ass network cards and god knowsw what else they bought at CompUSA. that sounds bad, but it's what it seems like much of the time. who gives a crap whether you can do "good performance IDE software RAID" ? who does that? seriously. if you wanted good RAID performance, you'd build a box using a serious hardware raid controller, with good scsi disks... and if you're someone who wants to argue with me here, then you're really not someone who gets it, and should stick to your linux distro of choice. pretty IRC interfaces aren't all what it's about, you know.
As far as compatibility with linux "software" goes, FreeBSD is a POSIX beast, and works just fine in that arena. it also has an optional linux compatibility layer where (sadly!) it will emulate the insane mess of libs and dependencies (glibc? hello? pick a version already) and run the software as if it was a linux ELF binary. this is handy when vendors do stupid things like distribute apps for hardware as linux binaries... I've run into this with Mitsubishi high-end UPS systems, and linux compatibility mode worked out A-OK. all done, QED. no need to compromise my network with a exploit prone system (besides the windows servers, of course!)
but really, as a former linux user from the days when slackware was new and really damn cool, I have to say that I like FreeBSD more. one of my coworkers forced me to use it, and once I sussed it out a bit it made so much more sense. things are ALWAYS IN THE SAME PLACE. this is important, so important I'll say it again. THINGS ARE ALWAYS IN THE SAME PLACE. this makes administration easy. installing applications is much simpler. cleaning things up is easier. restoring from backup is easier. it's great that your home linux box has some weird ass setup that makes sense to you, but start administrating hundreds of boxes built by a team of different people over the years. weird ass file system nonsense doesn't scale. move on.
Ports and the source tree- these clinched it for me. it's spiffy. you go into the directory, use the built in search tool to find an app to do what you want, and then install it from source. you can snarf the binary if you wanted, but why bother? we're using servers here, they have power, and we're not building KDE3 or something. (except of course when we are, of course.) I can't begin to say how spoiled I am by using the ports tree.
And building from source- what's easier about keeping your system up to date than syncing your source tree with one command? and then rebuilding your entire core system with another? poof! it's like magic. go figure. it's been there forever.
anyway, if you're a geek who needs to do server stuff and you'd like to cut down on the headaches, give freebsd a spin. we're not bad people and most of us work for a living. you get to avoid a lot of clueless brats and silly script kiddies. if we say "H4X0r" it's in jest. maybe it sounds bad, and if so, that's fine. either it appeals to you or it doesn't. thanks for listening.
EOM
Guess what?
The debian package system sucks if the only mirror in your sources.list file goes down too.
There are a multitude of rsync servers and fileservers too. Also, if it can't find a file, try telling it to build one version back as sometimes the file mirrors don't get updated as fast as rsync.
If you set up your configuration right (as you have to for other distros such as debian), you are not dependent on any one server.
Read the docs before making stupid assumptions.
There have been little hitches with gentoo, but then again that's part of the fun of running it. Not only the raw speed, but the making everything work. This is why the more savvy people like it. I've never not been able to get something to work and I've been running it for half a year now.
It's not like I'm a pro either. It really isn't that bad to maintain, but as another poster said, until your comfortable with debian or slack, use a twelve foot pole.
Brian
Methinks you were trying to be funny, but I'd like to respond.
My wife and I make our own bread. We have several bags of different flour. We purchace yeast like it's a fine wine. We spend hours getting everything together. After it bakes, we run it through a meat slicer set to extra thick.
I don't mean to gloat, but GODDAMN that's some good bread. We'd take the Pepsi Challenge agianst that Wonderbread shit any day.
In the next year, we will probably get our own flour mill and purchace bags of wheat to lessen our dependency on choosing prepackaged flours.
Gentoo is, IMHO, the best Linux distro out there. I'm sure there are some people, let's call them "Linux Gourmets", who could put together an awesome distro to beat Gentoo. I haven't seen it yet.
Gentoo needs an install cd. A full Gentoo system already ready to go. After install, you could recompile packages as you see fit. Emerge kicks ass. I've never used the BSD ports, but with emerge, it just works. The dependencies seem reasonable. The ebuild files are well laid out and easily modifyable.
I'm not a linux developer, but I have a freaky feeling that a lot of RPM and APT gurus are looking at emerge and thinking of ways to make their systems more like it. Maybe a system like apt-compile or urpmi.compile is already in development. If not, it will be soon.
In short, Gentoo is a serious player in the distro wars. I forsee a lot of people moving to Gentoo in the next year. Especially on the developer front.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.