PC that acts like a TV

An anonymous reader writes "CNN is reporting on the newest HP Media Center PC, a PC that "acts like a TV". Seems to me it is a TIVO with some additional features, like storing and displaying pictures and music files. Runs on some sort of Windows XP." The real killer with this whole genre of device is cost and confusion. Users don't know what they do, so its not worth the cost. Anyone who has used a tivo for a week knows what it means. Business just needs to get the costs down. I think including functionality like pictures and music is a good step towards increasing value, as long as it doesn't add to the confusion.

Comments

TiVo doomed? Hah!

[TheSHAD0W]

And Slate thinks TiVo is doomed? When their competitors are trying to sell virtually the same thing for $1,400? Hah, I say! Hah!

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[NineNine]

The average person has no fucking clue as to what a "Tivo" is or does. HP, on the other hand, has some great marketing people that can actually educate and market their products. Tivo's barely keeping their head above water due to very poor marketing. It doesn't give a damn if Tivo's product is better and cheaper. If nobody knows what it is or what it does, price and quality are a moot point. I predict that HP will trounce Tivo.

Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

New $5,000 Multimedia Computer System Downloads Real-Time TV Programs, Displays Them On Monitor

P4 1.8GHz?

[OutRigged]

What I'm wondering, is why do these systems come with such powerful hardware? P4 1.8GHz, 256mb RAM, GeForce 4 ti based videocard, etc.. For what it's supposed to be, I just don't see the point. Is it a media center, or a gaming system? That's the entire reason the price is so high. I'm sure they could pull off the same system, with all the same features, running off a VIA chip, or even a Celeron or Duron, and a cheaper videocard. Until they do that, they won't sell to many of these.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[quiklilo71]

There's a few reasons I think they put it on such a platform: 1. XP is a pig; I have a couple of XP boxes in my home lan (2 of my pc's run XP; 3 run Linux), and it does so much unrequested-by-the-user work that it needs the horsepower just to run many times. 2.That's not that much horsepower anymore. a 1.6ghz/256ram pc is middle of the road by retail standards...not that you are I have all of our boxes so powerful. 3. Multitasking multimedia on anything less is often impossible (by multitasking I mean burning a cd, watching a film and downloading content simultaniously).

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[fiffilinus]

Ah yes, what about all this neat DRM functionality? Do you really think the encryption stuff for keying files to the media pc in question won't take cpu cycles? :-)
You really think those wonder machines will let you burn CDs for your car stereo?

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[cat_jesus]

The original SA Tivo runs on a 55Mghz PPC chip with 16 Meg of RAM. You are quite correct about bloatware. If they spent a little more energy on making a tight, light, stable OS and application perhaps they could use less expensive but suitable hardware and lower the price thus gaining market penetration.

.not that you are I have all of our boxes so powerful.

..begin unrelated rant..
Is the difference between are and or really that difficult? I can overlook "there's a few", but are instead of or? I hope for your sake that english is your second language. Or should I say for you're sake?

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[jedrek]

Wow... and to think that I was doing the impossbile by burning CDs while working in Photoshop and Homesite while watching divx compressed movies with a couple of putty, kazaa, edonkey, mirc and bpftp sessions in the background on my P3-866.

Time to call the Weekly World News, we gots a miracle on our hands.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[ergo98]

While it doesn't explain the GF4, the CPU can be explained as necessary if they haven't integrated a coprocessor for video compression: Even 3Mbps (ok quality) MPEG2 has my Athlon XP 1800+ gasping for air. I don't know what sort of video codec they're using, but if it's WM9 (a sort of super-MPEG4 supposedly) then increase the CPU usage accordingly. The desired goal is that they'd put actual integrated video compression hardware on there.

Personally I think this is a product area that will get huge: For everyone who's talking about how expensive it is, realize that people buy TV systems exceeding that cost frequently: This isn't a surprisingly high home entertainment cost. Hell, the home theatre market continues to strive, selling five digit projectors and similarly priced audio gear. I personally have been having a debate regarding my own entertainment system: My DVD player was one of the early ones, and I want to replace it with a progressive scan player. Additionally I want something to play MP3 and WMA, preferably over the network from one of my other PCs. What I end up needing, of course, is a computer at my TV, and that's the direction that I'm headed. My biggest problem was software (i.e. I would rather super simple, can't-screw-up, software for family and friends), however the Media Center software seems to fit the bill perfectly.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[chewedtoothpick]

There are good reasons for this!
First off, this is no amazing feat. The 'mom&pop' store I run sells easily 3 or 4 systems a month that are made for the same reason. They are Athlon 1800+'s with 512 of DDR333 and all sorts of good stuff like a Leadtek Winfast TV2000 XP w/ remote and a 22" CRT. They sell like mad because I am able to sell these for only around $1300 as a PC that does TV AND gaming.

The fact that /. posted this shows that someone is way far behind on technology. TV Tuners with TiVO capability etc... have been out for a while. And they are good stuff to. But I am writing this post to address the parent coment claiming that the PC is too powerful.

TO SOME EXTENT IT IS RIGHT!

Now, the use of a TI series GF4 is way overkill. I throw Radeon 8500's or GF3 TI (because they are better then the 4mx and cheaper) in my TV/PC's and they do what they are supposed to flawlessly. One big problem that I used to always notice though it the TiVO app is a HUGE bandwidth hog. I used to be using PC-800 RDRAM and crappy INTEL's until Athlons starting using DDR. DDR Has a slight advantage that I have noticed because the quality of the data (and therefore picture) was greatly affected by the warmth of the RAM (I don't know why, so don't ask) and DDR is easier to keep cooler as well as being fast enough. The Ram is a little lack in this HP system because XP uses a good chunk of the ram, almost around 128M, and the TiVO as well as tuner need as much as possible.

As far as your keen intellect noticing that they should use AMD's or something else, you have to not forget. These PC's will sell like shit. There are way too many bone-heads out there that still think INTEL is the only thing there is. I could easily triple my sales overall if I sold anything INTEL, but I don't because I know.
being that the general public is just too ignorant, and Intel is in bed with all the big companies, especially Dellsux and Microshaft, You are going to keep seeing BS like thins until AMD releases the Hammer and intel is sitting, thumbing their neither-reigions waiting until they feel the market is ready for 64-bit.

It goes like this

[octalgirl]

This concept has been out for a while, but has never appealed to me. I have no desire to fight with other family members over TV time vs computer time. It goes like this:

Mom and Dad are watching their fav show, a commercial comes on and Dad says 'I need to check my mail' - click - 'Oh look, someone sent me a new joke' click-click - The screen goes black, the system reboots. Mom whacks Dad with the newspaper for opening a virus and making her miss the end of the show.

castrated computers

[vstanescu]

May be this is just my opinion, but i am not willing to have a computer as a digital replacement for a TV. Yes, I like to have a TV tunner to watch or record something from time to time, but I am not such a huge TV fan.. there are days where I even don't look at the TV at all. I dislike all this trends to transform the computer in a multimedia black box. I want my computer to code, to write some documents, browse the net, even play games.. but I want it to have the feel of a computer, not of a tv or stereo. I enjoy the power to do whatever I want with my PC; if I want multimedia, I know what hardware and software to buy and use for this, but I would not buy a box that is limited to multimedia only and is sold as a "family device" to be placed under the TV. This is the same story with the Xbox - I understand it is a cheaper PC, but I love too much my opened case computer, in which i can fit whatever card I want, to switch to that black box, even if it has cool games or can run linux. I wonder if anybody else feels this entertainment devices as castrated computers, that lost all the fun.

New XP Interface

[shird]

The 'some sort of Windows XP' he is talking about is problaby the Freestyle interface Microsoft is developing. Put simply, it is basically a shell for XP which has huge icons so that it can be viewed from a distance. Its a bit more than that though.

Also related is 'Mira' which is more for Wi-Fi type devices.

Re:New XP Interface

[DNAGuy]

It is Windows XP Media Center Edition. I expect more partner manufacturers (Dell, etc.) to offer Media Center PC's soon. It's basically Windows XP Professional with an app that provides a TV/Remote friendly interface to audio/video functions. Manufacturers are required to provide TV tuners, remotes, etc. in order to distribute the OS.

Convergence - again!???

[The Mutant]

Apple has tried this several times, and Compaq has as well (tellingly, Compaq doesn't off this product / capability any more).

I'm not sure folks - and by that I mean the mass market, not geeks - are ready for this. I understand the HP product can record, unlike the MacTV (I own one, btw, as well as one of their 5500's which has a TV tuner card) or the Compaq machine but it seems like most people park their PC in one room and the TV in the other.

PC / TV convergence? Well, your toaster has been next to your refrigerator for 50+ years, and they haven't converged yet. I don't see a mass market for this now, and there clearly hasn't been in the past.

Nice box though.

*uh*em cough cough hello???

[Billly Gates]

These new multi-media pc's just wouldn't happen to be thesedrm crippled babes?

sigh.

Cmd taco, sometimes I feel like I want to bitch slap you. Bad taco bad.

Ouch!

[AntiFreeze]

This thing scares me. It costs $1,400, and a monitor is *extra*. In other words, they're just selling a computer preconfigured to hook up to your television.

The article is short on details about the computer, this is what it says:

The HP computer, which will be available by the end of October, comes with a remote control, television tuner, and can record and play television shows and digital music. A monitor is extra.

Nothing special whatsoever, but what really scares me is what the executive VP of CompUSA says: "The remote control could well become the next standard PC peripheral". Huh? Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?

Something's very fishy. This thing is a computer with a tv tuner card, it shouldn't approach $1,400, even with a monitor included. There have to be some other gimics, otherwise this thing seems to be one big rip off.

If someone's got real information on this thing to counteract the lack of information presented by CNN, that would be greatly appreciated.

Re:Ouch!

[NineNine]

Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?


EXACTLY! That's what people want! People want *simple*. Leave the real computers to the geeks. Hell, the PS2 is almost an all-in-one box... games, movies, and music all in one little box with a remote control. They add a SIMPLE Net connection to the next gen PS2, and a SIMPLE email and web interface (yes, that you can operate with a remote), and they'll have convergence.

Re:Ouch!

[AntiFreeze]

Yes, I agree, people most certainly want simple. But there's a line. There are many functions of a computer that just cannot be accessed by using a remote, short of that remote being some type of keyboard.

On the other hand, if what you use a computer for can be boiled down into functions a remote control can send to your computer, then you can probably find something much cheaper than that computer to acomplish the task. If all you plan on using your computer for is tv viewing, buy a tivo, it's much cheaper than a computer, and you get all the same functionality. If you only use your computer to play mp3s, invest in an mp3 player, the computer is overkill.

Also, with respect to your PS2 comment, it's a device designed for a specific task, and is much cheaper than a computer.

In my roundabout way, I think what I'm getting at is that computers should be generalized. You should be able to do what you want with them. If you buy a computer and it's set up to do only one thing well, then to me you're not buying a computer, you're buying an appliance. TiVo is an appliance in that sense, so is the PS2. And those appliances are much cheaper than the general computer you could buy which can perform all those tasks. So if remote controls become the "next big peripheral", then the machine they come attached to better be damn cheap, or that remote control better include a keyboard.

I hope I've made some sense, I running on 0 hours of sleep right now.

Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Brento]

As an All-In-Wonder Radeon owner, here's the deal: PC's will never replace Tivos until they can replicate Tivo's Season Pass functionality and knowingly record not only the shows I want, but the ones it thinks I will want.

My All-In-Wonder Radeon is a pain in the rear because it won't track schedule changes and automatically record the show I want every time. When a show gets delayed by a football game, or like TLC just randomly changes schedule, I end up with recorded footage I don't want while missing the show I really DID want.

Plus, when the Discovery Channel shows a one-time special, "When Animals Attack Cops During Natural Disasters", or one of those other shows I love, the Radeon's software (ATI MMC) isn't smart enough to tape it automatically. Come on, guys, it can't be that hard if Tivo can do it. We're so close...

And now, 1,000 Linux guys are going to tell me that we could easily write our own using a web-based TV program repository, but just like every time I post this, the repository doesn't exist. Gemstar has it nailed down, and the market is locked up on that one.

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Fnkmaster]

Not quite true. Check out XMLTV. I think you might find that all the guide infrastructure in available in a nice, Free package. So given that much of the backend work has already been done, you just need a nice guide program to use XMLTV guide data (i.e. parse XMLTV's XML format) and implement the relatively simple logic of tracking shows and making sure to schedule recording of them.

I actually started working on this a bit for the excellent DScaler TV tuner card app (this is a Windows app), but I haven't gotten very far yet, mostly due to having lots of other more pressing projects, but I wrote some hack-job code to display current guide data in a simple box overlay drawn on top of the DScaler TV window. It really needs a much more comprehensive treatment than that, but the point is this is a couple of week project. If you are interested, get in touch.

Mac TV

[mekkab]

Yeah, a friend of mine had one of those "sears macs" from 7 years ago... (a quadra? performa? all the names meld together after a while) and she didn't have a tv but she did have a coax connector in the back, so she'd watch tv on her mac. IT was a nifty trick.

However her system had 1 SIMM slot (WTF?!) so it wasn't as if you could run permier and make some captures and put them in movies.

Without a killer app it isn't going to be more than a parlor trick. But then again, without having these parlor tricks around you don't give anyone the opportunity to create a killer app!

But given the inherit difference in the user interaction model:
TV: Sit. Watch. Enjoy!
PC: Sit. type. click. read. type some more. enjoy!

Don't get me wrong, there are spectator aspects to a pc- why, look at console gaming (the best example of TV/PC convergence yet)- even in games that aren't head to head I can watch my wife play and still have a good time.

problems

[d80tb7]

The problem with this is that this isn't just being marketed as a entertainment box as in Tivo but as a practical computer as well. In some ways this justifies the extremely high cost of the unit but it also causes a couple of problems namely:

display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing. Most computer monitors are far smaller than you would wish to watch TV/DVD's on. Unless LCD screens get an awful lot cheaper this problem really isn't going to be solved.

functionality: If your going to use this as your main PC what's going to happen when someone wants to play a game/write a word document etc etc etc? Does everyone else in the family have to stop watching TV?

Phobia: people are in general afriad of computers. My mum likes TIVO because it doesn't look like a computer and it does its job well. This thing would scare the hell out of her somply because it's a pc.

All in all I think there's a place for this thing but only if they cut the price and market it as a piece of consumer electronics as opposed to an all singing all dancing pc.

Re:problems

[Twirlip of the Mists]

display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing.

Keep in mind, though, that this is gradually changing. Mine is a 34" HDTV that can resolve 1280x720 very nicely. (I can drive it at 1920x1080 as well, but only interlaced, and interlaced makes for unpleasant viewing of static material like text.)

I paid out the ass for my TV earlier this year, but smaller televisions with similar capabilities are getting cheaper and cheaper. As the deadline for various FCC mandates approaches, expect TVs with 800-or-more lines of resolution to be the rule, rather than the exception.

freevo?

[nico_le_blob]

Anyone checked freevo.sf.net ? Reads divx/dvds, mp3/ogg, image files, watch tv... and is free software of course...

its drm crippled and may not be able to run linux

[Billly Gates]

I already got modded down as a troll for mentioning this but just a month ago I saw this link about these crippled boxen.

Yes, they are drm crippled in hardware but I do not know if they use palladium or not. If they do use pallidium then no linux is not an option.

I have not seen one comment here mentioning about this important issue.

Re:It's not rocket science

[NineNine]

well frankly, then they shouldn't be using computers to begin with!

Typical geek attitude. And anybody who can't gap their own spark plugs, and change their own timing belt shouldn't be using cars either, huh?

bad analogy

[squarefish]

Typical geek attitude. And anybody who can't gap their own spark plugs, and change their own timing belt shouldn't be using cars either, huh?

The target customer of a $1400 computer with a tv card is the same user that constantly has problems keeping their computer running through stupidity, not necessarily a lack of tech or mech skills.

If someone is constantly crashing their car into walls and others- destroying other peoples cars, then we have a system that removes their right to use a car.

We also have a system in place called licensing which allows us to have some faith that others are responsibly operating their equipment/machinery in a safe manner.

I also find it very interesting that when the big computer manufacturers decide that people aren't buying new machines they pull out 5 year old technology, double the price and pretend that nobody had this option before. The cards are on the shelf and anyone can walk into computer store and pick one up. Also, most hardware like this has very plain instructions to make the installation dummy proof.

Good News: HP took a stand against DRM

[Melantha_Bacchae]

Billly Gates wrote:

> I already got modded down as a troll for
> mentioning this but just a month ago I saw this
> link [slashdot.org] about these crippled boxen.

I've got good news. According to this story:

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-961376.html

referred to here on Slashdot:

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/10/09/ 17 52228&mode=flat&tid=109

HP forced Microsoft to back down on their DRM stance. Sony offers a competive product that does *not* include DRM. HP felt they could not compete if they were crippled.

Now if we could only get Apple, Sony and HP to go to Washington DC and tell the media sharks' pet congress critters what to do with their stupid DRM legislation, the good guys would win a big one.

"Lightning shines on wavey beach, and all clouds are made right:
Happiness Appears!"
From the song "Infanto no Musume" in the Japanese version of Mothra (1961).

G Countdown: 16 days (www.godzillaoncube.com)

Merchants' marketing sucks

[Devlin-du-GEnie]

CmdrTaco said:

"The real killer with this whole genre of device is cost and confusion."

Based on a wide sample (here, me), merchants are doing nothing to reduce confusion. I bought a TiVo at Best Buy two weeks ago. They were boxed on a shelf. No demo unit was set up. No remote was available to touch and use. They had the cables baggie lying out, so I was able to see that I didn't need to buy any, but that was it.

The reason TiVo rocks is its functionality, interface, and ease of use. I heard about it from fellow geeks. If you're not showing those features to Joe and Jane Consumer, why would they be interested?

Karma is what occurs between posts.

and in other news...

[twoslice]

The next generation of TiVo can be used just like a computer!

I've had one for a year

[ShieldW0lf]

I'm posting this comment from the sofa on it.

Lian-Li PC-12 Black Aluminum Case (2x80mm in, 1x80mm out)
Enermax 350W PSU (1x80mm in, 1x80mm out)
Lapped Duron 600 @ 980 (7.0x140)
Lapped GlobalWIN FOP32 @ Arctic Silver II
Asus A7V133 MB w Promise RAID
2 x 256MB PC133 RAM
40G Western Digital Caviar HD (VIA - Primary Master)
Lite-On 40x12x40 CD-RW (VIA - Secondary Master)
60G Seagate Barracuda ATA IV HD (Promise - Primary Master)
Pioneer DVD-ROM DVD116 (Promise - Primary Slave)
40G IBM Deskstar 60GXP (Promise - Secondary Master)
Lite-On 52x CD-ROM (Promise - Secondary Slave)
Asus V7100 Deluxe Combo Video Card (Lapped P100 HSF @ Arctic Silver II)
62cm Television on RCA output
Hercules GameTheater XP
Boston DT6000 5.1 Speakers on Optical SP-DIF output
3Com 10/100 NIC
Logitech Freedom Optical Keyboard/Mouse
Microsoft Sidewinder Pro Gamepads (2)
Homemade Remote Reciever (Serial Ports obsolete, eh?)

This is mostly old tech now, but it still plays DVDs, plays DivX5/AC3 spanned across up to 3CDs for highest quality, holds 70GB of MP3s, surfs web, checks mail, plays 3d shooters, emulates every console and arcade game EVER, captures, timeshifts, does slideshows off my digicam, supports my universal remote, and is simple enough for my wife to use.

Microsoft and HP can keep their crap.

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Dark Paladin]

I'm sorry to disagee, but I think Tivi is becoming a part of the public consciosness. When I hear a local radio dj ralking about how he used his tivo to record a show he wanted to check out, a huge chunk of the local population just went to tivo.com.

Tivo has mindshare, is simple, cheaper, and does one thing very well. I actually predict tivo will gain more mind and market share.

The more things change

[Joe U]

The more they stay the same.

Commodore annouced something very similar years ago.

They went out of business shortly after. I don't think anyone ever understood why they were supposed to buy the computer for your tv, it wasn't a Commodore 64 or Amiga, it wasn't a game console and it wasn't a VCR. It was something in-between all of that.

Who knows, maybe music will be the feature that saves this one.