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Building The Navy Intranet
wiredog writes "The Washington Post Business section has an article about the ongoing upgrade/integration of the US Navy's computer systems. The $6.9 billion project is the largest Federal IT project ever attempted. The mission is to get rid of, or upgrade, all the old software still in use (including, I kid you not, WordStar), do the same for all the hardware (including, I kid you not, typewriters), and link it all together. There are 100,000 different applications that have to be evaluated, and then either upgraded or replaced. I remember using WordStar. 20 years ago."
I kid you not, wordstar probably NEVER crashes on them. :)
And after this project is deemed a success, the Navy plans to decomission the USS Constitution.....
Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
If wordstar and typewriters are working, why spend $6b to replace them?
Actually, funnily enough, this is a big concept that at least the Australian Navy seems to use.
When I left in 1989, I was told the HMAS Hobart had a combined computing power on the whole ship, of a Macintosh Classic.
Then again, when I left they were still mostly relying on analog computers.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
But the $6.9 billion project has turned into a major technology headache for the services and the prime contractor on the job, Electronic Data Systems Corp. (EDS).
Hey, if EDS can herd cats, they can do this job, no sweat.
Belloc
I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
Vi and EMACS are great, but for word processing, and I don't me lame desktop publishing which is what most programs like MS-Word and WordPerfect do today, for word processing, no one has created a better interface. Once you know the commands, you can virtually fly through editing a text document. Emacs and Vi are good, but they are designed for editing source code, not text.
Wordstar Still rules!
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
Based upon what I'm hearing from my contacts in the USN, Microsoft Bob will survive the chopping block and, is in fact, the key component to the new Navy Intranet.
-- jimmycarter
One of the reasons for replacing typewriters/WordStar/etc is connectivity. With the current system sending a message from one base to another might require using snail mail, or a courier. Modern systems have this thing called 'electronic mail'. I hear it's going to be the Next Big Thing.
Best Slashdot Co
My pen works fine too, but it isn't recognized on my network.
Ha, ha! I know the feeling. Yea, I remember using vi 20 years ago. Oh wait, I still do.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Exactly what is so laughable about using WordStar and typewriters ? A competent WordStar user (and in the day, Wordstar was THE word processor for power users) could almost certainly outdo the best Microsoft Word or free-software-Word-clone user in 95% of the everyday typing tasks that people need to do.
And typewriters still DO have their place. A good typewriter is still the fastest way to fill out a form, or fill out a label to put on a file folder, or even, sometimes, whip out a quick letter.
Ridiculing tried-and-proven technology is about as arrogant as ridiculing conventional mail.
"Report: I have no idea if you'll get this message. While ice fishing, the penquins broke in and did something to the computer. I really have no idea what they did, but the dominant male of the group tells me he's coming back tomorrow to finish configuring X, whatever that means."
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
95% of computer users would be just as productive with a typewriter and a subscription to [fill in the blank] pr0n magazines.
don't be knocking wordstar or typewriters when they get the job done usually just as well.
your jesus is another mans xebu. chew on that hypocrites.
Besides, typewriters just *sound* cool. And they make you look very busy with very little effort. Stupit soft-touch keyboard, I bite my thumb at thee!
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
I still vividly recall being a high school student working on the family's first IBM PC (no hard drive, just two hard-working, 360K, full-height, black-faced, metal floppy drives). It was a History paper, and I was done. I went to save it...no dice. Out of space on my data diskette.
I substituted another diskette, and I think that's the precise moment I became an IT person. Because that's when I realized that a WordStar "Document" (as opposed to "Non-document," which IIRC was ASCII) file is opened when you create the document, not when you save it. So there was a little stub file on my (otherwise full) diskette that WordStar expected to see.
Could I print the paper? No, not without saving it first. Could I copy the contents into a buffer, exit the document and paste them somewhere? Please.
So I wrote that $$#@$%%$@ paper twice. And whenever I pull a boneheaded stunt by not thinking something through, I get a little taste of that sweet WordStar pain, and I can't say I'm sorry they're gone.
(On the other hand, given my very brief experience as an ROTC midshipman, I'm surprised that they're not still relying on punch cards for everything but Aegis.)
Based on anonymous sources I know who are currently working at AMSA, this could be hell. AMSA is currently a test bed for microsoft development, and they are involved in "upgrading" their system, eventually replacing a 4 or 5 person department running their tracking software on PIC on Unix or something like that, with a windows based system with several hundred employees. Given the morale there (see the link for esplanation), it is not hard to get some gossip
Part of the problem is that with PIC, they can get real time information, not possible currently under MS. And some of the functionality does not translate well when you migrate out of a multidimensional software enviroment.
If I recall correctly, PIC was first devolped by/for the government to provide a multitasking environment with natural language queries on machines as small and slow as an IBM XT. It was and is from the start a combination OS/Database. Which MS is only now starting to explore.
I imagine that there any number of these systems out there in the navy enviroment, among others.
Typically this is a case where the MS solution is in fact an inferior technology.
BTW, PIC was part of the technology acquired by IBM when IBM purchased Informix.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I've had the experience of working in several government agencies that were in the midst of this type of situation. Fortunately, they were much smaller installations. What the article doesn't talk about is the barrier to each individual unit/cost center to purchasing common hardware and software. It is next to impossible for a US Government agency to buy the latest and greatest of anything because of how purchasing works.
In order to buy *anything* you must first go to the GSA (General Services Administration). They send you copies of their current vendor contracts. GSA contracts are put together either yearly or every year and a half. This means that if you aren't ordering at the very beginning of the contract cycle you are getting older models of equipement or software, for higher prices. The contracts are not modified to reflect current market prices or models. If you catch the cycle at the end, you'll be buying 1 to 1 1/2 year old computers/software for 1 1/2 year old prices. A win for the vendor and a big lose for the agency buying stuff.
But wait, there's more. Now that you've ordered through the GSA contract, you have to receive your goods. This takes a very long time. The terms for payment from the US Government is not what you would call favorable to the vendor. The stuff you've bought has to get sent to the GSA, then the GSA has to send it to you. Has anyone ever heard of efficiency in a government agency? I didn't think so.
So what if you don't want to go through the GSA? Well, then you have to write up an RFQ (request for quotation) and publish it so that vendors can submit bids. Not a short or easy process. You then must take the lowest bid that will meet your requirements and start doing the contract thing. Once the contract is in place the vendor can start work. Some government agencies have interesting contract regulations. For example, one that I worked for had an unpublished rule that a vendor could increase the price of goods/services by up to 10% without the contract having to be re-bid. Take that to its logical conclusion.
It's always more difficult when it involves the government.
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
"If wordstar and typewriters are working, why spend $6b to replace them?"
Because the Navy wants everything tied together into one large directory designed for secure communication using standard software. Communicating encrypted messages is much eaiser when everything is standardized.
I'm been involved in this "cleanup" for a year now and let me tell you it isn't pretty. While I think its a good idea, unfortunately, their goal is to migrate everything they can to Windows 2000/Office 2000 and get rid of shareware/freeware, therefore open source, products.
Of course there are tons of HP-UX, Solaris, etc boxes that will stay, but those will be in a completely seperate network and not supported. Thankfully, as a Java developer, I can move all my development to a *nix box and keep all the open source software I use.
Its all probably a good idea for the Navy, but I wish they didn't hold such a negative view of any software you didn't pay a crap load of money for.
As an ex-squid, let me assure you this is a bad idea. Why? If you lock a sailor in a room with a steel ball they will either lose it, eat it, break it, or fuck it. They don't need more expensive toys to break. To be honest the above only applies to OS's, Crypto-Weenies, oh yeah, and air-dales ... friggin brown shoes ...
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
Will WOPR be upgraded? What's the newest version?
A shame no slashdot readers are fit enough to join the navy
What the heck are you talking about! In fact, I would venture a guess a significant number of slashdot readers work in one way or another for the Navy - I am one.
Were I work we fear the NMCI contact mentioned in the article. Primarily because it shoves MS solutions down our throats and takes away our ability to choose the best approach to an application. In the project I work for we are in the process of replacing older Solaris/Sun based machines for Linux/Intel workstations. We recently selected Linux to run Matlab to process data instead of the Windows machines suggested by a contractor. We use use Perl extensively to prep, Q/A and archive data.
Finally we use Perl/Apache/Linux to operate several intranets and internets installations.
Unfortunately, the article paints a real false and negative picture of the use of technology in the Navy. It is sensationalism crap.
I mean, the reliability of wordstar and even typewritters is infinitely higher than the one of Microsoft Word/Excel.
If that seems either insightful or funny to you, go try creating some documents on a typewriter. Personally, I'd prefer a word processor with a lousy, cluttered UI, an annoying paperclip that keeps batting its eyelashes at me and a habit of crashing every two minutes over a typewriter any day.
Wordstar, however, wouldn't be so bad. It wasn't so bad, back in the day. Assuming you could get printer drivers for it. That wasn't a problem years ago, but now... (yes, kiddies, printer drivers were once the job of the application, not the OS, or even the printing system. Luckily you could usually just type in a few codes to tell your app how to use your dot matrix printer's italics mode, bold mode, etc. For fancier stuff, though... ugh).
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
If they're willing to use Wordstar, they may as well just use vi.
I wrote my masters thesis with vi and nroff in 1987. It looked better than those written with Wordstar.
Yet Another Web Site
I only see a small piece of the Navy's IT structure, primarily the systems that deal with intelligence collection and dissemination. The current development system runs on Solaris 2.8, and they allow clients running Windows to connect, but the developers don't like it. Current military developers (I work with Joint, Navy and AF) seem to have a great love of using Java for the interface controls. This allows any properly-configured client on a network to access the server, and then the geeks can keep their servers MS-free. The military intell community knows very well how completely worthless Windows is for mission-critical functions. Unfortunately, the rest of the military sometimes forgets. Wasn't a cruiser knocked out by a BSOD last year?
The development and deployment cycle for Naval systems is on an entirely different time scale than the norm, even in the military. Navy systems get upgraded when a ship comes into port, if there is time and resources available at that portcall. Considering the current operations tempo (optempo for the buzzword-impressed), about 1 or 2 intell ships get upgraded per year. They won't tell me how many total ships there are, but I know it's more than a dozen. So, just the installations will take 10 years, if nothing goes wrong and there's no major war.
If there's a war, nobody gets upgrades if they're needed in the theater, or as immediate backup to the fleet in the theater. Makes time schedules rather flexible.
Illegitimi non carborundum
Because the Navy wants everything tied together into one large directory designed for secure communication using standard software.
What a pipe dream. This is what IT companies have been promising for decades and have never delivered . Probably the last time this was accomplished was when an entire company ran off of one mainframe. One set of software, one set of terminals, one set of administrators, etc.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Have you ever seen some of the forms the government uses? Plain text is not going to cut it.
XML, on the other hand, may be just the ticket they are looking for. It would Allow standard interfaces to be made for data entry and specialized for to be printed.
The Military still relies quite heavily on printed papers, signatures, and photocopies - things that can be forged. It would be particularly nice to see them invest a big chunk of that money into digital signatures and encryption, so they could eliminate much of the wasted paper and free up huge amounts of space (one DDS4 tape is alot smaller than 20GB printed data).
Of course, a change this massive would cause the mental collapse of thousands of officials still unfamiliar with technology and unwilling to learn.
That what was all this school was for... to teach us how to solve our own problems. -- janeowit
What I would hope to see is a case where the Navy says:
...
We do these things and we use these products/applications. This should cut the number from 100,000 to 1000. While not every government agency needs to act like a business, in 99.9999999999999999% of the cases the Navy (Marines, Air Force, etc.) could.
They intent would be to standardize on a set of products such that an application requester would not build their own or for that matter go off on their own to decide.
You need a database, choose DB1, DB2, DB3...
You need a procurement application: PA1, PA2 no others and these interface with each other.
You need a desktop, choose Vendor1Product1
You need an OS, OSA, OSL, OSM, etc. and it must be an xyz compliant version, this network support.
any step toward a consistent infrastructure that does NOT list parts. (I was talking with a guy from my State government who was ordering outdated computers because they are force to list the components. What $2000 got you in 2001, is different from today, but buracracy only lets them buy what was specified in the budget.)
We do not want to see is 100,000 applications rewritten in VB, or C++ or anything. 100,000 came from attrition. If they are going to have to convert get them prove you cannot use one from the list.
I doubt however this will happen. There are too many interests that do not benefit from a smooth, consistent approach. Too many contractors who cannot make money selling packages, and too many buracrates who benefit from a custom approach.
My cynical side says to look for it to be $12 billion, and 99,999 systems.
OK, there have been uncountable posts now that discuss the pros and cons of WordStar.
The issue was not that everybody used WordStar and that now they have to switch. The issue was they everybody used a zillion different programs (of which WordStar was one example).
The idea is, as many other have pointed out, to improve communications. A first step is to make sure that applications are standardized. If everybody had used WordStar, they could probably have made this happen with that program, but in reality M$ Word was probably much more common.
Tor
I actually work at a Navy base that is scheduled to be transitioned to this new network. The initiative is called NMCI (Navy/Marine Corps Intranet). From everything I hear this project has been one big cluster f*** from day one. My base was scheduled to be transitioned over a year ago but delays have pushed it back so far that we're not even supposed to start for at least another year.
This whole thing is such a colossal waste of taxpayer money.
If they were using XP it might lock up in the middle of the ocean because it thinks they're pirates.
Maskirovka
Okay all - I work for the Naval Sea Systems Command and I can tell you the REAL goods.
We have been preparing for NMCI for years. Our original "AOR date," or Assumumption of Responsibilities, was Fall 2000. The contract award was delayed several times and finally awarded to EDS rather than the expected frontrunner, CSC. Rumor was that CSC was prepared to run with it. EDS had already disbanded their team.
NMCI has been nothing but heartache. The ISF, or Information Strike Force, a team EDS has assembled to lead the tranisition, is comprised of mostly freshfaced green sys admins who "basically" understand Windows 2000 and have decided to put 400,000 users, printers, mailboxes, etc, on TWO domains across the country. By my rough estimation, they may even run out of valid IDs for their active directory.
The ISF has been so unprepared they have pushed data inventory calls on us at the rate of once every few months. This has overwhelmed our staff and left us bankrupt energy wise. Most recently, the following two events have REALLY HAPPENED:
Upon reviewing our state of the art cat6 network, they told us they would "upgrade us" to cat5.
They told us they would replace our brand new Cisco switches, locked to the port by MAC, with older, less efficient models, because "our staff is trained on them."
The plan calls for swapping out subpar equipment in Commands who have less money and replacing it with better equipment poached from Command who have it, juggling resources but also leaving those command with less. The rumors are that they will simply NOT support a good portion of legacy apps. Also, word is that they intend to do everything from block ALL non-approved websites to lock the desktop to the wallpaper and screensaver -- with EDS LOGOS!!
The most elite support you can buy is "4 hours response time." Laptops will cost your outfit over $300 a month, and at the end of two years, it's taken away. Computers will cost over $190/mo. We could buy new equipment semi-anually for cheaper. Now they are forcing us to buy Windows 2000 licenses and migrate ourselves from NetWare 5.1.
This is a complete waste of money. Great idea on paper - absolutely deplorable and pathetic implementation. I'm embarrassed and frustrated as a taxpayer and eventually, I may quit on principle.
I've thought about going to the newspapers and sharing some of this information. As a citizen, I'm incredibly upset because it reeks of closed door deals. Your Navy is spending 6 -12 billion dollars on this, and it appears almost every command will need to stand up a second network just to function. How does that make you feel?
I have to wonder how long it takes to log on, if you have the thousands of GPO entries in place and roaming profiles needed to make all that happen.
My girlfriend is in the same situation, and it's ridiculous. If she bookmarks a site in IE, it's gone when she logs back in. But the default bookmark for Hotmail is always there. Hotmail is blocked by the Internet filer. She can't change the screen resolution or background picture.
She spend her own $$ to buy a grade book program so she can enter grades, attendance, etc. on her Palm, and transfer the info to her office computer. Except she can't install any software on the office computer. The IT guys at her school can't install software either. To install software, someone has to get in the taxpayer-purchased car at the District HQ, drive to her school, and install it for her. The in-house IT guys can't even install a printer.
Then there's the BESS internet filter, which prevents her from doing any real research. She wanted a poster of Thomas Jefferson for her classroom; all the websites where you'd buy a poster were blocked because they had "objectionable content: swimsuits." The District's policy states that BESS can be bypassed for educational research needs, but there is no system in place to make such a request. She can search Google, but the google cache is blocked.
These are "new" (less than 1yr old) Dell machines with Win2K. They are completely useless. She does all her computing work on her laptop (PII-266) at home now, because the hundreds of thousands of dollars that Seattle Schools has spent to put a computer on each desk has resulted in a useless, locked-down-to-the-point-of-being-a-kiosk computer on each desk. This is also the same school district that just gave their superintendent a raise to $220,000, who then discovered a $33 million accounting "oops." The superintendent was hired because of his strong financial background and he has never been a school teacher or administrator.
Okay, I feel better now.