Slashdot Mirror
Abiword's PayPal Donation Fund Robbed
SabberFlapper writes "According to this Announcement to the developer list of Abiword the Abiword fund was robbed. Dom Lachowicz writes: 'I'm duty bound to let you all know that the AbiWord Fund/Tip Jar has
been robbed approximately three weeks ago. I'm telling you this now,
rather than sooner, since I believed that Paypal would do something
about my complaints during the interim, and that this would all be
resolved quietly. Today, 23 days later, this does not look like it will
happen. [..]
I do however, recommend doing several things:
1) Writing to Paypal, in letter, email, or fax form alerting them to
this travesty.
2) Calling Paypal on AbiWord's behalf.
3) Writing or calling your Congressman/woman, pointing out that Paypal
is acting like a bank, but not operating under formal banking laws.
4) Boycotting Paypal because of these reasons, and the fact that their
system is notoriously insecure, and encouraging others to do the same.'" Of all the groups to steal from -- AbiWord?
Do your research. I never donate if it's a paypal tip jar because of things like this and this. Paypal based donations are a disaster waiting to happen.
One has to wonder if the Abi folks knew about PayPal's failings ahead of time. If so, then had they looked into other ways of obtaining donations? That is to say, if the Abi folks are saying "Look, we knew that PayPal sucked and was insecure, but we used them anyway, so please write them to tell them how much they suck" then it's a little harder to take their complaint seriously.
I've used PayPal for auction stuff. I was fortunate enough to get payments mostly through PayPal from a large USENET auction I held a while ago. But once that big chuck of money was in there (we're talking less than $1k) I had them cut me a check and send it to me so I could put the money somewhere I trusted...a real bank! Even now, I never keep more in the account than I could bear to lose, should something go wrong.
That the Abi folks weren't taking better care of their money hardly seems like PayPal's fault. Many people know PayPal has been difficult to deal with...it's no big secret and it's even been talked about on
I don't want to defend PayPal too much here. They're clearly sleazy sometimes (if not all the time). But that doesn't absolve the Abi folks from being more careful with their benefactors' cash.
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
Mr. Fusion
it is entirely possible that your thief did this very same process and used it to gain access.
if you go through the password retrieval process in a completely unsatisfactory way, it will present a telephone number for you to call. the wait on hold wasn't even that long. the human was nice, and its far more immediate than sending an email.
if you can't get through that way, i suggest calling ebay's fraud prevention and taking it up with them. ebay just bought paypal, remember?
hope this helps
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
To clarify:
(1) The first line should have been italicised, since I was quoting the parent comment.
(2) The eBay CSRs were being told off by their supervisors, not by the Power Sellers.
I saw previous posters say they closed their accounts after they found out about AbiWord theft, I closed my account as soon as I've read through posts on the site above.
Paypals complaint resolution works like this:
File complaint
Paypal emails other party on your behalf
Paypal receives no response for other party after X number of days(duh)
Paypal deems your money unrecoverable (sorry)
Filed fraud w/ my CC company
CC company investigates (and when they finally stop laughing) remove charge from my CC (thank you!)
Recieve nastygram from PayPal for not initiating the charge back through Paypal for the 10 dollar fee instead of the free service my CC provides.. (dick heads!)
Luckily my CC company came through with no problem. But I was scammed on a PS2 system on Ebay (long story) the sad part is that there were about 20 of us that lost out on the ebay thing. A couple of them used paypal and got nothing! and since they didn't use a CC (which paypal would rather u use a straight bank transfer) they got screwed. Got nothing back. Sad.
Thank you. Drive through. (:wq)
To close your paypal account follow that link. I just closed mine.
Then send them an e-mail explaining why. I'm going to now.
P.S. It seems to me the seller of the camera/PDA must have mailed the thing somewhere. Get that address. Contact local police. Contact EBay's fraud division. ETC. I'd be surprised if this money cannot be recovered. In the meantime, I hope Abiword is busy setting up a C2it account.
Like Digital Freedoms? Then donate to EFF before they're gone.
...under US federal banking laws and this article from CNET explains why better than I could.
So contact "Jun Jiang", find out to where he shipped the camera and arrange a little "visit..." Looks like the perp also bought another camera so if Jun Jiang can't /won't provide the address (which he should 'cos he got money from "you") - then ask the other seller. Then arrange the "visit". I'm sure a number of folks would be only too happy to help with the "visit", especially those who contributed to the tip jar.
Rich people are eccentric. Poor people are strange. Me, I'd be happy with odd.
Someone has...check out these sites:
paypalwarning.com
paypalsucks.com
Paypal is not a bank, if somebody guesses your password and robs you blind, you are screwed.
Knowing this, do not keep large balances in your paypal account! This isn't that hard people.
If you want the hand holding that a bank will provide, be prepared to lose much of the flexibility that Paypal offers. Millions of us use it and love it. Don't ruin it for us because you have a bad password.
Hints for Paypal.
1. Use a good password.
2. Give that password to nobody else.
3. Do not keep a large balance at Paypal, transfer the funds to your bank account, it is free. Do so frequently.
4. Do not EVER pay for something with funds from your Paypal account. Withdraw all funds and use a credit card via Paypal. If things go wrong, cancel with your credit card company.
I have read all the sites warning of the problems with Paypal. If you follow these simple rules you will not have any real trouble with Paypal. Even if somebody does get your password, steps 3 and 4 will make sure that your loss is minimal.
Don't ruin this for us because a select few didn't take the time to protect themselves. Paypal is a wonderful service, if you take some very basic and simple precautions. Really, how hard is it to follow the 4 simple steps I listed above?
What a bunch of whiney-asses! Here is how to stay safe on Paypal:
(1) Use your credit card ONLY - you can always do a charge-back to Paypal via your credit card company of a disputed charge, therefore you are protected! I had to do this once and it all worked out OK;
(2) DO NOT maintain a balance in yoru Paypal account - they allow you to "sweep" any blanace into a regular bank checking account nightly!
(3) Choose a strong password.
Was that simple enough?! If you want a free-market society, you can't jump on the "sue them" bandwagon just because you lost money - no-one will want to provide services. A previous poster said it best when they said - SOMEONE stole the money, so Paypay is not at fault - they do not guarantee your money in any way - get it? If they had used Paypal's "balance sweep" service to move their Paypal balance to their normal (FDIC insured) bank account each night this have happened, correct?
I for one, don't want to pay additional fees for Paypal to become a bank and insure my money (I never keep a paypal balance), so take your business elsewhere (we've got too many laws on the books already!).
PayPal isn't a bank. They don't claim to be a bank. They are not insured like a bank. So why should they have to act like one? They are a payment clearinghouse.
They take deposits and pay interest, and are covered by FDIC. That legally makes them a bank, whatever they may claim.
1. No, you shouldn't be worried about it, BUT you shouldn't be giving Paypal your bank account information. You should only be dealing with Paypal on the basis of a bank-issued credit (not debit) card.
2. If you have more than $50 in Paypal, you should take it out immediately. You shouldn't keep a balance with Paypal. If someone buys something from you and the money goes to Paypal, just take it out ASAP (though if they are small transactions, for convenience you might want to wait until you are up to $50 or so).
3. There are indeed viable alternatives to Paypal. One example is Bidpay from Western Union. There's no account balance, you simply buy a Western Union money order (online, of course) and they send confirmation to the seller who can then be assured that their money is on the way. Each transaction is its own beast and nobody leaves any money hanging with them. Some of the above messages contain other alternatives.
4. I don't know if Paypal has to change. I think the consumer perception of them is the problem. Too many people think of them as a bank when they clearly are not. They can't even be confused with a bank if people would simply maintain ZERO balances with them and use them purely as the money middleperson as they were originally intended.
Of course, Paypal has a tendency to foster the impression that they're a bank, so their marketing can take some blame as well.
It's all about education. If somebody isn't giving you interest on money they're holding for you or isn't federally insured - i.e. credit unions, banks, savings and loans - you really need to either move your money elsewhere or, as in my case, SPEND IT.
I don't want to "blame the victim", but if your money is not in the PayPal account, it can't be stolen.
Wrong. If you sign up for a 'subscription', and there's not anough money in your paypal account when the 'subscription' renewal date arrives, they will automatically take it out of your account, without asking. (My guess is, since they tell you this when you sign up for the 'subscription', that constitutes their 'asking'. Nevertheless, they can and will take money from your bank account/credit card if they so choose.)
I'm not sure what others' experiences have been with this company, but I'm looking into getting it myself... A new company, called NetSpend (www.netspend.com) is offering reloadable MasterCards which you can either put money onto at any store or check cashing location that allows it, or get money deposited to via online transaction... The bonus, of course, is that you can access your money directly (while paying the average $1-$2 fee for ATM usage), and a paltry $20 per year charge to maintain your account...
The only apparent drawback of the program is that you can only transfer funds from one NetSpend account to another, so of course, your buyers/contributers need to have a card themselves... Considering that the fee is extremely low, and the fact that NetSpend is on the BBB, they seem a bit more straightforward than PayPal... Also, they don't need to pass any credit application procedures, or open a bank account (unlike secured credit cards), it can be extremely simple to obtain.
Another added bonus is that the credit card acts as a secondary form of ID...
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Granted, the easiest way to prevent this is to not use paypal, but up to this point, they haven't done me wrong, they've actually backed me up on an auction I won, and paid for, and the seller never shipped the product... Paypal got my money back for me within a week of submitting the dispute.
So, Paypal isn't ALL bad, granted their security should be a bit better, and perhaps they are a bit understaffed, because complaints do take quite awhile to respond to. (but *3* weeks?)
Most likely, they were trying to get a cash advance by charging a credit card through paypal as a purchase toward the second account. This is straight-up against the PayPal TOS, because it is also against every CC TOS I've ever seen. If you want a cash advance, you have to do it the CC company's way, or they'll get heaps of mad over the extra finance charges they're "losing".
A nice alternative to paypal (for some purposes) is Yahoo's PayDirect.. paydirect.yahoo.com..
... since there have been enough paypal bashing for one day, how about folks kicking in a buck or two to raise some more funds for abiword?
Heck, if some nimwit in NYC can raise 20k to help pay off their credit card bill from donations, surely at least $600 can be raised to help abiword? Hell, maybe we can get some of that infamous Slashdot effect directed towards kicking a buck to their back account.
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Ever heard of a Money Order? I have yet to see an auction that didn't accept these....
God forbid wait an extra week for your Collectors Edition Velvet Elvis.....
Paypal does have phone support, but you only get it with their business/premier accounts. If you have a business account it trivial to find a 1-888 number for them. Now I have read it has been outsourced to India which doesn't sound great, but at least you can talk to someone if they are actually making money off you. They shave 2.2-3.9% + 30 cents off each of my incoming money. 2.2% + 30 cents is for Merchant accounts which have qualification requirements. 3.2% + 30 cents is merchant receiving money from someone outside the country. 2.9% + 30 cents is standard business caaounts receiving money and 3.9% + 30 cents is standard receiving money from outside the country.
The prices are like a form of sales tax, but at least they are better than c2it, western union, or bank wire. Checks would be cheaper in the US, but also less convientent. Not sure checks from out of the country would work.
Overall I am just going to require payments be charge + paypal sales tax. It makes me wonder if the government is going to get especially upset with ebay/paypal now they they have found a way to virtually collect a sales tax on the internet.
I am definitely use the methods mentioned above to protect myself and look for something better. So far I haven't found anything as cheap online.
Havoc Penington, the bane of my Linux desktop.
I think that's PayPal's business model - fuck people out of their money, and make damn sure they can't find a phone number.
They do exist though.
# Their toll free number is (888) 221-1161
# Another toll free number is (800) 836-1859
# Yet another toll free number is (877)672-9725
# Their NEW regular telephone number is: (650) 864-8000
# Their regular phone number is: (650) 251-1100
# Their fax number is: (650) 251-1101
# Their mailing address is:
PayPal
P.O. Box 45950
Omaha, NE 68145
# Their corporate offices are at:
1840 Embarcadero Rd.
Palo Alto, CA 94303
US
# The Nebraska office is at:
Paypal
11128 John Galt Boulevard
Omaha, NE 68137
(402) 935-2000
(402) 935-7733
If you're one of the legions who've been fucked, there's a class action lawsuit you might be eligible to join.
Once I finally got through to someone at PayPal, they were pretty good about getting me my money. But it was a royal pain in the ass.
- James
Sure enough Paypal processed the payment to some individual for $6,009. Wife freaks. Writes to paypal, they tell her tough shit, they can't do a thing about it, please ensure she has money in her accounts to fund the transaction.
So the wife cancels her credit card, talks to bank to make sure they will bounce the draft, etc...
Sure enough, next day, a draft for over six grand bounces, first $29 bank bounce charge fee. Pay pal autowrites her a nastygram saying to fund the account, that she MUST fund the account due to her paypal user agreement and they will try again in two days. Wife writes back, DON'T TRY AGAIN. Again, they say there is nothing they can do about it.
Again, another bounce, another $29 fee from bank. Finally, paypal gives up.
Some tips for all that she uses that saved her....
Like another posted said earlier, Paypal is like playing the stock market, don't put in what you can't afford to lose. Just in her case, it looked like she was going to lose much more than that for a while there.
And speaking of recourse and chargebacks, there isn't much of that anymore. All the card companies want to know is if there was a signature, an itemized list of charges, and that the exp date was checked. If those 3 conditions are met, you are on the hook.
AmEx is the worst.
If you've hooked up PayPal with a checking account, you be totally fuxord. No recourse at all, ever. Think *debit card*.
actually there could be recourse if they took money out of your checking account without authorization. it would have to depend on the circumstances. with in my limited amount of legal knowledge, engaged to a lawyer so i am learning a bit more everyday, and her and i had a discussion about this a few months ago. she had said that there have to be certain points that need to be met for them to yank cash out of your account.. i.e. proven fraud on the part of a customer or buyer from an online auction.. that kind of thing. as for them freezing accounts and not allowing access to legit funds in there.. we have not touched on that issue yet
a wise man once said "two wrongs dont make a right, but three rights do make a left" and that wise man was gallagher
This is not entirely true.
Visa now requires (if you are processing a card without being able to swipe the actual plate) a zip code for the account holder as well as the card exp date.
This catches alot of would be number swipers off guard. No zip, No charge. End of Line.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order- Ed Howdershelt Via Tass
Character from Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. Throughout much of the first part, it was a widespread fad to ask "who is John Galt?" whenever one didn't know the answer to a difficult question.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
People don't get all bitchy and ask the cops to replace their stuff, do they?
My parents own a small electronics repair shop. It was robbed recently. My parents had to pay each customer what their stolen tv,vcr,stereo etc.. was worth. Paypal is password protected, my parents business was locked with a key. Sorry but I do not see much of a difference. My parents eventually got most of the money back via the insurance company and some of the stuff was recovered within a few weeks.
I think every person with a tv claimed they were less then 1 year old and 5 inches larger, it was a comical event to watch them back peddle when their stuff was recovered.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
After all, they bought them: Cnet
?sp
So this Jun character bought the camera with stolen money. What I don't get is this. As soon as that transaction went through, abiword should have contacted all parties involved in the transaction and told them to stop. In other words, don't ship the camera, by explaining to the seller that it is being paid for fraudulently. This shifts the burden.
Then, was this money left in the Paypal account, or was paypal just used as a conduit to rip off the bank?
I have to agree with a lot of others, who say to not leave much money in the account. There's just no upside, unless they were saving up to pay a seller who wouldn't take credit card payments.
Finally, to further protect yourself if you need to se Paypal: 1) sweep your account daily, 2) contact your bank and tell them to not allow transfers to Paypal, or 3) attach a bank account to Paypal that has a low balance.
Paypal is not a bank, they don't claim to be. And you can sue Paypal, as a judge ruled their arbitration process was unreasonable , more or less.
Good luck recovering those funds. Go after the transaction endusers, as they have some liability here for receiving stolen goods/ property.
Actually, I never respond to emails from scammers who claim to be paypal, my passwords are quite long and not the same everywhere, I change my PayPal password once every 2 weeks, etc...
/ te rms#insurancen /webscr?cmd=p/gen/te rms#consumer_protection
I don't really blame PayPal for my fund being robbed. I do blame PayPal for not responding to my customer support emails. This is the crux of my complaint.
All I asked for was an address of my grievance. I'd be pleased if they acknowledged my existence as a member of this planet. But they don't, and in my opinion, it would be the least that they could do to keep a customer happy, nevermind their legal obligations.
Paypal proclaims to be a trusted third party, collecting, holding, and disbursing your money as only you see fit. My money was disbursed from their coffers without my permission. This is robbery. No, Paypal did not rob me, someone else did. But Paypal as a trusted third party is responsible for providing certain safeguards to make sure that they're not duped too easily. And if someone tells them that they've been duped, they have an obligation to at least investigate my charge. Or at least they should.
Paypal is a company that manages and holds others property on behalf of them. As such, they are duty-bound to protect those properties. There are laws for companies that do this, and names for businesses that do this. Namely, they're called banks. As such, my money should be protected under laws and statutues similar to FDIC. It is not. Am I stupid for using PayPal? Maybe. Shame on me.
Now, if PayPal had merely responded saying "We're investigating this charge" *EVEN* if they came back saying that my charge had no merit, I would not have sent this email. I refer you to these quotes from paypal's own site:
"PayPal will investigate your complaint and attempt to recover any funds you are owed. You will be entitled to the return of any funds PayPal is able to collect on your behalf. However, fund recovery is not guaranteed."
Please read:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen
and
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bi
This inaction when dealing with my funds pisses this one customer off. And, IMO, rightly so.
Dom
http://www.paypalwarning.com http://www.aboutpaypal.org/ http://www.paypalsucks.com/ Enough said
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
There's also the c2it service, which is part of Citibank. They don't seem as free-wheeling as PayPal (They have limits on how much money you can transfer around), and they don't charge stupid percentage fees to accept money from credit cards! They will, of course, charge you for international transfers, but so does my bank if I deposit a check drawn on Canadian dollars.
On the other hand, when someone sends me money, it gets transferred to my real bank account. But the no-fees transactions of c2it are nice. That's how a real credit card works anyway, right? (Pay in full, no fees, pay partial and there's a finance charge.)
Don't pretend PayPal is a bank. It isn't. Get a real bank account, transfer it out of PayPal, and keep the money in there.
Why risk being shafted by PayPal? Use another service like c2it, and if someone wants to deal with you, then they have to get an account with them too.
this is my sig
Depends on the mood of the cops that deal with him. I was once involved in the citizens arrest of a guy that was abusing his girlfriend on the street. I was on the bus, and when we saw this, the bus driver stopped, and a bunch of us got out to help the woman. As soon as he saw that help was comming, the guy just stopped, and didn't offer any resistance. When we asked him what was going on, he said "That's OK, she's just my ex". That's when I placed him under arrest.
While we were waiting for the cops to show up (took maybe 2 minutes), another passenger got off the bus, called the guy a fu*king asshole and punched him in the face, giving him a bloody nose.
When the cops showed up, they asked about the bloody nose, and I replied, "somebody hit him". They didn't blink and they didn't bother to ask any further.
Although I'm generally anti-violence and waved off the guy that hit this bastard, I'm not completely sad about that outcome. I'm presuming that he plead guilty because I haven't heard any further from the cops about this incident.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.