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Mathematica and BattleBots

hesheboy writes "Wolfram.com has a story about building a battlebot with Mathematica: 'October 28, 2002--Looking for action with brains-over-brawn appeal? William McHargue, a freelance physicist and long-time Mathematica user, is one of many who find this combination in BattleBots, the new fighting-robot craze. "With BattleBots, one can be aggressive and yet nobody gets hurt," says McHargue. Recently, McHargue was featured in Mechanical Engineering magazine for work on Tesla's Tornado, his BattleBot.'"

28 of 80 comments (clear)

  1. While reading by jukal · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...remember that Wolfram.com the site on which the story resied == Mathematica. The company whose product Mathematica is. So, do not expect to see something unprejudiced. It's an interesting story anyway :)

    1. Re:While reading by giminy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Chuckle. Was kind of wondering about that. It'd be like saying "Joe Smith, a long time Microsoft Word user, has just released his latest book."

      People aren't interested in the tools used to make the product, unless they're the company that makes the tools and are making a press release :). TBH I'm surprised that hesheboy's email address isn't something@wolfram.com ;-).

      --
      The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
    2. Re:While reading by jukal · · Score: 2
      No it's not. That's why there's hardly any comments on this story. Even for a tech story, it's tedious.

      Heh, well..mmm..maybe I will have to admit that I just tried to be polite :))

  2. hmmm by lingqi · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Maybe he is onto something design-wise - but I don't think it's "interesting."

    What I mean is (drawing on real-life examples) that while bacteria and viruses (yes it's spelled viruses, see here), I don't really think that's what we are looking for when doing battlebots.

    for the longest time, rambots (bots that basically has a lot of power and a wedge shape) would win consistently. This guy's little contraption is not much different. the bot still depends on a very rudamentary skill to attack / defend. - the only difference is that he usese Mathematica for modelling vs. say, ProE (which I think would be better anyhow).

    real brain over brawn would be, let's say, an (almost) universal manipulator, and enough sensors, reactory circuits, and capability that the robot will make reasonable decisions to duck, block, parry, jump, or just (calculatedly) take an attack, and then be able to exploit the other robot's weakness at the same time.

    --

    My life in the land of the rising sun.

    1. Re:hmmm by Nephrite · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I agree mostly but you really describe the consequence of a real problem. The basic problem with the battlebots is that they're just too damn err... strong. Who needs that manipulator you describe if just hacking and bludgeoning is more effective? I would suggest introducing some restrictions on the bots' armor strength so that using brute force would damage the aggressor itself (if you use force too excessively of course), thus promoting use of more sophisticated devices and algorithms in the bot construction.


      As to our 'bot-of-the-day' it is just another hard thing bashing on its opponent. Also, I just don't see anything special in using some math software for designing it. After all most engineers calculate their inventions before building them.

  3. Hrmm by acehole · · Score: 5, Funny

    So when can I expect to hear the annoucement of a BattleBot weighing in at 3.141592653589793238462643383279 pounds?

    --
    Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
  4. Best way to build a battle bot... by the.jedi · · Score: 4, Funny

    .....Is to design an evolutionary program that would pick some basic designs (wedge, saw, spin, etc...) and have them do battle several thousand times then use natural selection to mix the properties of the most successful robots and greate a new generation of robots then repeat as many times as possible till you get a robot that is a highly evolved killing machine.

    I don't think this would be incredibly hard to do. They I believe they already had a computer evolve a robot that could walk so now we need to evolve a robot that can Smash.Oh and i'd be coold if it could steal the defeated robot's parts and build onto itself. I suppose that would put it over the weight limitations though.

    On second thought they'd probably just start hunting human beings and that wouldn't be cool at all. Guess I'll just put down the wratchet and the C compiler and goto bed.

    --
    ThunderBird. Nuff said.
    1. Re:Best way to build a battle bot... by NiftyNews · · Score: 2

      .....Is to design an evolutionary program that would pick some basic designs (wedge, saw, spin, etc...) and have them do battle several thousand times then use natural selection to mix the properties of the most successful robots and greate a new generation of robots then repeat as many times as possible till you get a robot that is a highly evolved killing machine. No, the best way to build a battlebot is to spend half your time building and half your time driving.

      Let's face it, nearly every bot on that show could be twice as deadly if they just got someone talented enough to drive it and operate the weapons. It's like putting a $3000 stereo system in a $1000 car...all that work for nothing.

    2. Re:Best way to build a battle bot... by jonbrewer · · Score: 2

      No, the best way to build a battlebot is to spend half your time building and half your time driving.

      This is precisely why I refuse to watch battlebots. As long as a human is driving it, it's nothing more than an RC car. A competition of autonomous robots, OTHO, I would be interested to see.

    3. Re:Best way to build a battle bot... by CvD · · Score: 2

      Dude, this would require a heck of a lot of physics knowledge.

      Its a cool idea, definately. But you have to program out the physics of *every* interchangable component, including the dynamic physics (what happens to objects when they are struck, moving, rolling, etc - even what happens to batteries when subjected to a certain amount of force in a particular direction). It would be an incredibly complex model that would need a lot of computing power.

      Besides, since in BattleBots humans are controlling the robots, you would have to make an AI to act as a human in controlling the robot during the various evolutionary rounds. And once you have an AI that good, you might as well include it in the real robot. :-)

      Cheers,

      Costyn.

    4. Re:Best way to build a battle bot... by jonbrewer · · Score: 2

      Righto to both of you. Thanks. Yeah, I guess most autonomous robots are pretty boring. But still, I think one could make a spastic fighting bot that would work on its own. Especially given that it will be operating within a closed ring on a flat surface, and all it will have to do is shoot anything that moves... :-)

  5. Re:Any Free Alternative? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No.

    Use the right tool for the right job. Choosing software based on politics is like choosing a hammer for its smell.

    Also, Mathematica does nothing for you that you couldn't do yourself with a pencil and some paper. Convenience costs money. If you can't afford it, you must not really need it.

  6. Website by Kj0n · · Score: 4, Informative

    Found on Google: the official website.

  7. Re:Any Free Alternative? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you want something like matlab that is open source (GPL) you can take a look at Octave (www.octave.org). Nothing symbolic in the basic design, but maybe some component that is symbolic and runs in octave? I hav'nt looked into that program that much.

  8. Re:Any Free Alternative? by krazyninja · · Score: 4, Informative
    You can try Scilab from here. It is a free scientific computation tool, feel-like-matlab clone.

    --
    "Do something man. Right now."
  9. Emotional reaction from geeks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I am constantly amazed how the tech people, who are supposed to be able to rely on logic on important decisions, resort to the worst kind of emotional knee-jerk reactions in this matter.

    I am a postdoc and run a research unit in a physics lab. If I hire someone and he starts giving me political bullshit about our exclusive use of Windows and Windows applications, he'd better be damn good at what he does or he'll be out in a minute for disrupting the peace in the group.

    Get the right tool for the job. Period. We don't have time to teach new students to use Linux or other free software. In fact, we don't have any reason to do so. Create plots with SigmaPlot or Origin, use Matlab and Excel to analyse the data and write your reports and papers in Word so that the coauthors can read and modify your text without having to learn a programming language (TeX/LaTeX). And no, the export and import functions in StarOffice/OpenOffice do not work properly.

    1. Re:Emotional reaction from geeks? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      It might not at all be desirable to have co-authors modify the digital text of a manuscript.

      Which is not a problem. Distribute copies of the document for peer review, but keep the original in a private directory. If it's necessary, throw a password on it. You can either require a password to open the document, or you can require a password to permanently modify the document. That feature, called "Protect Document," lets reviewers add comments or even make changes to the text, but prevents unauthorized users from making permanent changes. Once the author gets the document back, he can review the comments and proposed changes. He gets to see who made each change and when. If he likes it, he can merge it into the document with one click.

      Can you do that with a DVI file, or a PDF file? Not really. Word is a great tool for collaborative writing, despite what the knee-jerk anti-Microsoft zealots-- of which there are many, although you don't seem to be one yourself-- would rather think.

      --

      I write in my journal
  10. Legal question on mathematica errors ? by krazyninja · · Score: 3, Interesting
    ...BattleBots safety regulations required him to perform an analysis to prove that the laser would not harm anyone viewing the fight. McHargue performed the calculations for this analysis and typeset the report using Mathematica....
    If the rules are so strict, this raises a legal question for most mathematical software. Consider this scenario: Due to a bug (which could have been accidental), mathematica reports an "unsafe" value to a "safe" value.
    2. McHargue uses this unsafe laser in his bot.
    3. Somebody gets hurt by viewing his fight.

    Legally who is responsible? Wolfram? McHargue? The organisers? What???

    --
    "Do something man. Right now."
  11. Re:Battlebots is cancelled by meringuoid · · Score: 2
    I too heard is has been canned. It seems strange, since it has replaced WWF as the dorm's TV of choice for the male-soap-opera. Now what are they going to do? Build things with Mathematica?

    Don't know about Battlebots, but UK Robot Wars isn't looking like getting pulled any time soon. And even if it was, it's spawned a robot underground - there are plenty of unofficial events going on all the time. You don't need TV endorsement to make a hobby worthwhile :-)

    --
    Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  12. Re:Any Free Alternative? by RazorJ_2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've used all 4 main tools: Mathematica, Maple, Mathcad, and Matlab. All 4 have their various strengths and weaknesses. Overall, if I had to choose one as "the best or most comprehensive", I'd have to choose Mathematica. Now, if only symbolic math is important to you, then try Maple. It's a good product and strong with symbolic math. You can download a free demo from them.

    --
    pi=sigma{n:0-infinity}[(1/16)^n][(4/(8n+1))-(2/(8n +4))-(1/ (8n+5))-(1/(8n+6))]
  13. Re:Any Free Alternative? by e8johan · · Score: 2

    I do not know of any OSS 'symbolic' maths program out there, but there is a very competent matlab close called Octave (www.octave.org).

    It uses the good old Fortran kick-ass linalg libraries for counting and gnuplot for the graphics.

  14. Missing the point. Re:hmmm by Dasein · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't care about the software he uses. The design is neat. It's the first spinnerbot that I know of that spins the entire chassis instead of just shell.

    To do this the wheels that the bot spins on have to brake at precise intervals to provide the ability to do anything but just sit there and spin. That means he probably has some form of onboard computing.

    BattleBots is neat but one of the things that's always detracted from it in my mind is that the bots always seemed like big, strong, remote controlled cars with no intelligence. This seems like a small step towards intelligence and may actually raise the bar.

    --
    You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake -- but you could be if you got off your ass.
  15. Re:Any Free Alternative? by fferreres · · Score: 2

    Freedom has no price. The right tool for humanity is freedom. You can ignore that fact and freeride from the hard work lots of "irrational idiots" that are sacrificing themselves to provide you freedom.

    Hey, this is not theoretical. The "right tool for the job" today may have a huge impact in what you can do in the future. Look at the .doc, .xls problem. The right tool for the job costs everyone in the world $400 to just be able to use the standard documents, spreadsheets and presentations.

    But your tip is aprecciated, because there will always be people working for your freedom for free.

    --
    unfinished: (adj.)
  16. Re:Any Free Alternative? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    The problem is that it is proprietary software and there are arguments against that in general.

    Yes... but those arguments are universally laughed at by those of us who understand that computers are tools to be used to accomplish productive work, and who believe that people who deliberately choose an inferior tool because it comes with source code deserve what they get.

    The general arguments against proprietary software, most of which were advanced by Stallman, are all really unconvincing.

    Everyone in high energy physics uses unix basically.

    Everyone in medicine and biology uses Windows or Mac, in about a 50/50 (at most 60/40) fraction. If you try and break out Gnuplot and LaTeX in a medical or biological research facility and you'll probably be politely told to use tools that are compatible with what everybody else uses. If you then start talking about politics... well, see the above poster who talked about research assistants being fired for making a nuisance of themselves.

    --

    I write in my journal
  17. Re:Any Free Alternative? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2

    Freedom of speech means you are free to voice your opinion without fear (you can shout "The King is a Fink" in public and not be arrested). So why are you an anonymous coward? Why should anyone take what you say seriously if you're afraid to admit you said it?

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  18. Re:Any Free Alternative? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2
    By the way, crap usually isn't expensive
    Have you priced Windows XP or SQL Server?

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  19. Semi-related thing. by NFW · · Score: 2
    Click the link in my signature if you're interseted in a free program that lets you design and play with virtual radio-controlled toys. I hesitate to use the word 'robot' as the control system language isn't expressive enough for much more than joystick control of walking critters, but it's kinda fun.

    An open-source multiuser "arena" runtime is only a matter of time.

    --
    Build stuff. Stuff that walks, stuff that rolls, whatever.
  20. Re:Any Free Alternative? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2
    Actually, no. I have two XP disks that were given to me. Haven't loaded either of them, and probably never will. I have no interest in running SQL Server, and with MySQL and PostgreSQL, no need.

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.