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No Windows Allowed On Ex-Battleship Cruise Liner
uucee writes "Wired has a story on an ex-warship cum cruise ship. Owner of the ship, Doug Humphrey, on why no Windows aboard his ship: 'We didn't want to have viruses blowing up systems that we depend on for navigation and monitoring engines and other systems. And since nothing seems to be able to stop all of these Windows viruses, the best way to win is to just stop using Windows.' However, it's not clear why Mac programmers can be trusted more than Windows programmers to keep a ship running: USS Yorktown was brought to a halt not by a virus but by bad coding: divide-by-zero.
As Windows viruses don't travel through 'the ether,' it's also unclear how mission-critical systems, properly cut off from the outside world, would become infected in the first place."
They didn't have Windows on the ship because sailors kept opening them and getting all their stuff wet. Ta da!
(So long, karma.)
But then how do they see where they're going?
--sdem
Well if the general public is going to base purchase desisions on half truths, marketing BS and FUD then at least this should give them a hint of balance.
1) This is a coastal patrol boat with a 40 mm cannon and two machine guns. It isn't remotely a "battleship".
2) The owner doesn't mention the Yorktown incident at all. Given the way it's constantly, erroneously invoked here, I'm surprised this is the story picked in which to debunk it.
3) So, somebody with a fairly sketchy understanding of computers made a billion by selling his startup to someone else before it cratered. It's been a while since people like that were a novety worth expending thought on.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
(1) It's not a battleship, it was a patrol ship....quite a small one at that.
(2) It's not used as a "cruise ship" now -- it's the personal vessel of an entrepreneur.
(3) As for how viruses would have gotten aboard (because they don't "travel through the ether") -- the ship has satellite Internet and is hooked-up to DSL when moored.
All that said, it's an ugly fsck'ing boat that dude's got!
-psy
"We didn't want to have viruses blowing up systems that we depend on for navigation and monitoring engines and other systems."
It's note-worthy that this is not a military vessle anymore. Unless I'm reading the article wrong, this boat is a glorified private yacht. I fail to see the importance of the whole issue from this perspective.
I can see the ads now...
"My name is Doug Humphrey, and I'm a rich bastard who downsized my company and bought a disused warship-turned-yacht for my own private use!"
Good for him. Worried about your navigation systems? Get a stand-alone GPS unit (Assuming the Royal navy stripped out the navigation equipment that the ship originally had, that is, which I'm sure didn't run Windows!). And I'm sure an engine room in a ship like that still requires a trained engineer and at least one assistant to operate.
The only 'critical system' I can imagine on that ship that could possibly rely on the stablility of an OS is his stock-market update streamer.
Now... if anything, the interesting story here is how they converted his *company* to use Macs, and is supposingly saving the firm a bunch of money on maintainance. That's something to talk about. Now we can have a meaningful discussion on the Mac vs. Windows situation in the business world.
=Smidge=
you know, it doesn't need to be clear. it's his ship, he can use whatever rules he wants. seems like pretty wise rules really.
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Why don't they just isolate the network that the ship's computers are on (the important ones like navigation) from all other computers. Don't connect it to the internet. And have every computer on it locked down, take out disk drives/etc. It would be very hard to get a virus that way, and you could run whatever you want for an OS.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
"We forced everyone to go to Macs for the desktops," he said. "The support load dropped to almost nothing and the only complaints were from people who couldn't play games on their machines any longer. So sorry, no games at work. We are so mean."
"I've used Macs for the last six years," he said. "I had a PC before that, but Macs were fun and more reliable. I don't play computer games so that might help explain why I don't miss the Windows box."
"We avoid the Windows operating system since it is such a huge security risk," he explained. "We didn't want to have viruses blowing up systems that we depend on for navigation and monitoring engines and other systems. And since nothing seems to be able to stop all of these Windows viruses, the best way to win is to just stop using Windows."
Two paragraphs noting that Mac's don't have as many games, and one noting that Mac's are more secure that Windows machines. If I hadn't read the Slashdot headline I would've thought this article was about a game-hating sailor.
Whoa, dude, it's time for your medicine.
Just what is a 'real-time mission-critical response'? Last I checked 'mission-critical' didn't _actually_ mean anything.
Also, I suppose it is just possible that Win2K has a _theoretical_ unlimited interrupt latency, but I don't think it is _effectively_ unlimited, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to do anything on my computer, would I?
Also, who gives a shit? Did anyone say Win2K was a real-time system? Did they? Is anyone claiming that Linux makes a good kernel for a real-time OS?
Finally, last I checked, boats need computers about as much as computers need, oh, I dunno, boats probably. Funnily enough navigating a boat isn't actually a 'real-time' operation, and while I daresay firing a guided AA missile is, I don't think anyone is really interested in whether Windows or Linux is a better OS for missile guidance systems, since they are both obviously not going to be used for it.
end rant.
*waves goodbye to some karma*
-----
Welcome Aboard the Badtz Maru! has more photos and details of her history.
how are they using satellite comm without going through a pc.... ? not using consumer gear - there are inmarsat systems that are dedicated hardware - there is a realtime os in there, but not windoze. connection is 10baseT. doug
Oh, and then there's the issue of real-time
mission-critical response.
Yeah, just in case his boat gets an upgrade that lets it go faster than 30 knots, eh?
I'm sure a boat that's been around since 1970 will find Win2000 plenty fast for "mission critical" things (like releasing the anchor, maybe).
That's easy - unless the machine is unplugged, sealed in cement and at teh bottom of the ocean, *someone* is going to bring his special program from him and will install it on the box.
Unless you post a guard on every box at all times, someone is going to play with it and screw it up.
Or steal it. One guy was so brazen that he came into a training class, and removed RAM from the machines while the class was going on. We found out about it a little while later when the person giving the class called us to ask when were were going to send the guy back to "finish working on the machines."
"Uh, what guy?"
"The guy that you sent out, earlier!"
"We didn't send anyone out . . ."
The point is, with 5000 employees in a manufacturing plant, we had the occasional problem where one of our critical systems would drop off-line because someone wanted to plug in their coffee machine, or play his solitaire on OS/2, or decided that they really wanted to chill down their alcohol in that nice, air-conditioned cabinet during the summr months . . . and Cruise Ships will have that many employees. All it takes is *ONE* idiot, and you end up in the press . . .
Chivalry is not dead, it's just frequently misspelt. - M. Langley
When the firm underwent a drastic downsizing recently, he moved his entire staff to Macs because it was too expensive keeping a fleet of Windows machines shipshape.
"We forced everyone to go to Macs for the desktops," he said. "The support load dropped to almost nothing and the only complaints were from people who couldn't play games on their machines any longer.
I expect slashdot reader to comment on the story before reading it, but shouldn't the SUBMITTER read it first?
Actually, no. Win 2000 can schedule a real time thread in kernel space, triggered by a hardware interrupt, much faster than the current stock linux kernels can.
With RTLinux, Low-Latency Linux, and the O(1) linux scheduler patches, linux becomes usable for hard-real-time uses. Without them, it is not! Real-time is what I do, and until these patches came out, Linux was very dissapointed for people wanting to use Linux in embedded systems.
--jeff++
ipv6 is my vpn
Hmmm...
My Iridium connects very nicely to my Psion Revo (EPOC/Symbian OS). The Iridium phone looks like a slow AT command-set modem to the Psion.
With the Psion and Iridium - I can shh while anywhere in the world, and the whole pacakge is less than 3.5 pounds.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
the point is that win2k(and xp) can still get to it's knees and start barking. (yes, it can stay up for weeks, but, can still fail, i've had funny things happen, like missing the first draw of nearly all menus, taskbar going wild, some unknown process , or known one, taking all the cpu and being unable to kill it because windows says it's under debugging).
booting the comp does count as significant delay i'd suspect, as something started will never finish.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
What the fuck is that all about? Half the facts in the headline are wrong (battleship, cruise liner, yadda yadda) and then you strike off on a tangent that's just plain inflammatory and, from the looks of it, shows off your ignorance of closed system infections.
Argh! I've so had it with this bullshit. Slashdot has become incredibly unreliable. You guys fucking lie in your headlines (let's call it what it is.. it's no merely "inaccurate", it's fucking lying for the sake of sensationalism) and then just go on about your business when half your [huge] readership makes note of it.
ARGH! I defy you [Slashdot editorial staff] to address this issue. I defy you. Go ahead... prove that you all aren't the true 'anonymous' cowards hiding behind your 'code of silence'.
Headline: Slashdot makes shit up just for shits and giggles. Facts secondary to inflaming the masses.
- I am made of meat.
With the Psion and Iridium - I can shh while anywhere in the world, and the whole pacakge is less than 3.5 pounds.
...per minute if the last satellite phone charges I saw on a bill were correct!
And since nothing seems to be able to stop all of these Windows viruses, the best way to win is to just stop using Windows.
The immediately brought to mind a line from the old Wargames movie: "Strange game: the only winning move is not to play."
Software Wars
If it weren't too long for it, your entire post would become my sig. I think I'll make a poster out of it or something to the effect ;P
Iridium is cheep now - $1.50 a minuit ~1.60 Euros. The high use plans can get down to $1.00 a min.
It's cheaper for me to use my Iridium phone in Europe to call the US, then it is to use a GSM phone. $1.50 vs $2.75
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
So like, I was gonna fire my cannon and stuff....and my ship started going BEEEBEEPBEEEPBLIPBEEEP...and I missed. Then I had to try and shoot again but it wasn't as good...cuz I was dead. It was kind of....a bummer.
One of many problems of having a commonly available OS doing this kind of work is the possibility of contamination from the "commercial" world by someone who doesn't know better and decides to update a file or two from their laptop or other non-vetted source.
And actually, this happens more often than not. When you consider that many corporations tend to suffer "corporate Alzheimer's" on projects as people involved with them turn over or the jobs are contracted out, you often can have functionality losses in your software that may go un-noticed for a while and sometimes its too late to fix it. For instance, when Microsoft decided to get their own version of Excel for Windows (after Excel/multiplan for the Macintosh was contracted), there was a wonderful feature that allowed you to retain linking with graphs and the data in your tables. At some point in Office 95 or 97 (I can't remember which), this functionality was lost with the recompiling and it has never come back.
Unfortuantely, there is a movement within the US Navy to migrate most systems including command and contol to Windows despite the concerns for security and stability that many seem to be voicing. Granted, there are "trusted" versions around, but they are not as stable as UNIX OS's (which also have trusted versions).
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Read the article. The guy owns a company that provides broadband access via satellite. You can certainly connect a Mac to such services (the sat modem just looks like a router), but most companies that provide that service are just too lazy to provide config scripts for platforms other than windows.
*** Quantum Mechanics: The Dreams of Which Stuff is Made ***
Now repeat after me: Stupid shit happens. Sure you're only supposed to trust tested and validated CDs from reputable places. Sure that's the way it's supposed to happen. Aren't all CDs from Microsoft trusted? Surely they wouldn't let a virus slip out their door on one of their own CDs. If you think that you're wrong. Microsoft distributed copies of Visual Studio .Net that were infected by Nimda! Companies do dumb shit. IT workers don't always scan incoming media for viruses on isolated machines. Weird shit happens. Dumb shit happens. Eliminating one of the most common conductors of the effects of dumb shit makes sense.