Slashdot Mirror
MAME To Become GPL?
BigJimSlade writes "The 'What's New' file for the latest release of the Multi Arcade Machine Emulator (or MAME, as it is more affectionately known) states that the developers/maintainers are considering re-licensing the not-so-open source code under the GPL/LGPL. Currently the source is under a slightly restrictive licence that prevents modifications to certain areas of code from being redistributed. (L)GPL source for this project would be quite a boon for devlopers, who could reuse the CPU cores and other key components in other OSS projects."
I don't think many people ever gave much thought to the licensing of MAME itself. I mean, it's nice that it's possibly joining the ranks of the open source movement, but the whole licensing and legality of the rom images I think is a far more restrictive dilemma...
Now if the games themselves were being made GPL, now that would be some great news!
In the Portland, Ore area and like card games? Check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/portlandgames/
Just a thought.
It's nice that MAME is going open-source, but the code has been there to steal all along. There were parts to which modification was illegal, but plenty of developers went ahead and did just that, forking their own versions. Maybe now the version forks can be reintegrated into the MAME mother tree.
(I don't remember the names of these forks but a Google search should pick a few up)
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
The developers were able to add back the gambling type (fruit machines, blackjack, poker, etc.) games. I think the main reason for the source not being under the GPL was because of a) Nicola not liking the gambling games and b) The fear that the newer and still for sale Capcom, NeoGeo, and other roms may be added by someone causing pircay of new software. I do agree with not adding in current games that are still making money for their copyright holders. The crime of owning ROM images you do not own is still just as illegal regardless of their age unless the copyright has expired. I think the intentions of not emulating newer games was to help MAME "fly under the radar" of the IDSA. As for the non-emulation of gambling type arcade games...well...it's a shame that someone would STOP others from adding that to the source.
"The strong will do what they want, the weak will do what they must."
-Thucydides
..GNU/MAME ?
Trolling is a art,
But what if you can't find the cartridge or what if it was never on a cartridge? Some ROM's came from consoles right? So how would you license one of those? I think there needs to be a consolidated effort to petition the companies who own the rights to the games in question and beg/plead/threaten/nag/etc until they release their games under the GPL or some other license that would allow us to play them without having to keep an eye out for "the man".
How is it that one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
there's a mame version, misfitmame, that's meant for simulations and other stuff not included in mame itself, like gambling games and stuff like that.
now i don't know if it interferes with the current model though.
the part of the license that's the 'needed' part vs. gpl/lgpl is that it prohibits you from distributing it along with roms. (iirc)
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
MAME was free software, but only free as in beer. It wasn't free as in speech. The change to (L)GPL would make it free software.
Sorry about the anonymous post. When I try to make a subtle point, I always get "-1 overrated" by people who don't read carefully. I don't know why I let the bother me, since I still gain unneeded karma.
For those of us that do have boxes of cartridges filling up storage sheds or closet space emulation makes perfect sense. The fact that the majority don't have the carts doesn't mean emulation isn't usefull for those of us that do have carts. Personally I use MESS more than MAME, but that's simply because I have more old console carts than anything.
<RANT>
Why is it that every time a project announces that it is changing it licensing to be GPL, somebody has to ask why it wasn't before? Why does it matter? Really? Who cares why it changed, why it wasn't GPL before, or even that it is GPL now?
</RANT>
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
I'm not a gamer at all, so the product really means very little to me, however, I wonder if releasing MAME as a GPL product will help ensure the life of the product if one of the game manufacturers were to have the core group shut down because of some DMCA-type infringement.
Since they are planning it now, I was wondering if there were reasons they had avoided it up until now.
Other posts suggest that they were trying to restrict the introduction of a) gambling software and b) code that would allow the pirating of current arcade games. They further suggest that this was done to avoid legal complications on this program. This all begs the question: what has changed that they feel comfortable GPL'ing it now?
Except MAME predates MAME.DK by several years....
If versions 0.22 through 0.26 were under the GPL, why was it removed from under the GPL for versions 0.27 through 0.61?
Actually I read a ruling that ROMS are legal ony if you have the actual media the roms came from. i.e. the ROM chips (or things like the MVS cart that Neo-Geo used). If you meant cartriges as in having the NES version of Galaga allows you to play Galaga in MAME, that's still illegal, oddly enough. Though owning things like the Playstion Namcomuseum does allow you to do this, because the Roms are included on the CD.
Bork Bork Bork!!
Was there any reason why it was started with the other license scheme? Are there any unique reasons why it should not be GPL'd?
The reason that it started with the different licensing scheme was basically control. The MAME developers wanted to have as much control of the program as possible while still staying open source. This way, they could make decisions for the majority of the MAME programs out there, such as not letting gambling games or new games for old hardware (specifically new Neo-Geo games) appear in the program, as well as keeping MAME from appearing in a commercial product and thus increasing its profile in the gaming industry.
Basically, they wanted to keep MAME as low profile as possible by keeping it out of commercial products and under the radar of companies whose games they emulate, such as SNK/Playmore or Capcom. Why they're considering GPLing it now when none of those issues have been resolved is beyond me.
Foo! You ain't never heard of IRC! /me heads to #romland on EFNet
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
--Aristotle
Hah! You never heard of a software package spontaneously converting from GPL to the revered and exalted Windows EULA, have you? Proof that Windows is NOT viral, cancerous, or Pac-Man, and is therefore infinitely superior! So There, GPL weenies!
Now I will prove which cup contains the Iocaine powder! [sip] Bwahahahahaha! Bwahahahahaha! Erk...
"The only good windmill is a tilted windmill."
Thank you very much. But assuming all of that is the case, we're left with the big puzzler: what has changed so that they suddenly feel comfortable re-releasing it under the GPL/LGPL?
I don't know about arcarde ROMs, but all console games come with a license that says that you cannot make any copies of the game, including for back-up purposes. So even if you own the game, it might now be legal to emulate on the computer.
See here for Nintendo's policy.
Or try a google search for emulation legal
Nintendo claims that all emulators and ROMs are illegal and sends cease and desist letters to sites like CrackerJap just for mentioning Pokémon in their meta tags. Their statements about the laws of various countries are self-serving bullshit, not the word of a lawyer or a judge.
Also, I could be wrong, but I do not remember any court case that has tested the legality of the "licenses" in console video game manuals. Hell, EULAs haven't even been thoroughly tested in court yet!
For most gameing I prefer a PlayStation or Playstation 2 style controller and of course there are ways to use them with a PC. USB Adapter I've seen several sites that show you how to hack older controllers to match a serial port or a gameport.
Even if the company doesn't exist anymore, SOMEBODY probably still has the rights to the software.
If the game's publisher has been out of business for more than ten years, and the publisher was not bought by IDSA, it's pretty safe to assume that whoever owns the game's copyright doesn't even know he owns it. The chance of the copyright owner actually finding out about your piracy and taking action are about the same as the chance of a software patent holder doing the same on a random original program.
Just look at "Zero Wing", an old arcade game. Toaplan, its publisher, has been out of business for a long time. Had the company who bought Toaplan's copyrights known about the song and music video that sampled parts of "Zero Wing", then we probably would have seen legal sparks fly a couple months into the "All Your Base" craze. But we didn't.
Will I retire or break 10K?
People who are interested in reusing parts of code. (MAME has heavily optimized versions of several filters designed to make bitmaps scale up better and also has processor emulators for a number of processors). Also people who are interested in reselling the code (perhaps Atari would be interesting in rebranding MAME and selling a "Classic Atari Arcade Games" package). And finally people who insist on running exclusively Free Software on their computer.
Maybe you don't care. That's fine. But the fact that people are asking (And that timothy decided to post it) suggests that some people do care.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
I agree with your sentiment, but I think the OP was asking if there was a technical or other reason for not alowing some of the code to be modified, seeing as the rest was open. At least that's how I read it. Anyone know?
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
Uh, mame.dk might have been a really easy way to get roms, but anyone who was relying on it being up forever was kidding themselves. When I first saw it I thought it was too good to be true, and it was.
Roms can be obtained through other channels.
But seriously, if copyright holders actually released their old games in a format accessible to PC users, there would be no need for MAME.
The reason I use MAME is not to get free games, it is to play old arcade games that I can't play anyomore. The once-in-a-while arcade compilation for Playstation doesn't account for the multitude of games out there.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
You do have the right to play the rom from a cartridge you own on your computer. I was feeling kind of dirty because I spent a week(yes, a week... It was a single 735MB zip file containing two nero image files and a cracked gta3.exe) downloading GTA3 for PC off of FastTrack. Then it occurred to me that I SHOULD be able to play the PC version, as it is essentially (but not literally) the same intellectual property as the PS2 game, which I own (or have purchased the right to play). The only reason I spent the time downloading it is because of the growing gta3 mod community; something you can not take advantage of on the PS2. BTW, it works beautifully and the mods, for the most part, are super sweet.
So, am I right? If I'm not right, than do the people who own those old cartridges really have the right to play the roms in mame?
put the what in the where?
all console games come with a license that says that you cannot make any copies of the game, including for back-up purposes.
In the United States, the backup law (17 USC 117) gives the owner of a copy the right to make those copies and adaptations necessary to run a program. The Betamax and Diamond Rio precedents give the owner of a copy the right to time-, space-, and format-shift a copyrighted work. And no, I did not see the "EULA" printed in the manual before I handed over the cash at Best Buy, so I don't think it's all that enforceable in a court of law.
See here for Nintendo's policy.
That's a publisher's official line, and it includes no citations of any court cases that support the company's position.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Though the philosophies behind "open source" and "free software" are divergent, a piece of software that is open source is almost always free software (the only difference is on the margins, where OSI accepts a couple of more onerous licenses than RMS is prepared to).
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
It'll be bad news for the video game companies if MAME is re-released under the GPL. Loading a video game ROM into MAME is just like linking, and since the GPL is viral...
Woo hoo! Cough up the Pac Man sources, Namco!
(Heh.)
BTW, if you're curious, what makes the difference between video games and gambling games for us is whether skill can make a difference. In gambling games, all is decided by the return ratio the operator set in the configuration
Not for blackjack. Blackjack is a balance between skill and chance, just like Tetris (which MAME currently emulates). A player who know what he doing can beat the dealer pretty reliably in four-deck blackjack.
Outside the realm of coin-op games, is "Casino Kid" a video game?
Will I retire or break 10K?
I own a sit down Star Trek - Strategic Operation Simulator. The game is in working order (but needs some work on the monitor). As an owner of the original ROMs, I consider MAME to be my Fair Use backup. I am legally using the ROMs for that game.
One of the reasons for our own license a long time ago was to deter those who wanted to make a quick buck from selling MAME (together with illegal ROMs). It worked reasonably well - the presence of this deterrent was enough to prevent at least some of them. Even though the reality is that selling the ROMs is illegal, moving back to GPL would open us to that sort of abuse again. You must have seen the banners and popups advertising DVD to CD copy programs for a low price of $49,95 - guess what, they are nothing but GPL'd software (MPEG-2 decoders and MPEG-4 encoders) slapped on a CD. Moreover, in the case of legal trouble, it would be easier to target the original authors than those who are redistributing the illegal material. In short:
Step 1. GPL MAME
Step 2. ?
Step 3. Profit!
;-)
The legal uses of MAME (together with legal ROMs) have been explicitly allowed previously (see the Capcom Classics CD), and it has been made clear that MAME itself isn't for sale, rather just a license for the game ROMs and a free copy of MAME on top.
Of course, we've had a fair share of problems because nobody is willing to try to enforce our current license on the most visible license violators, who currently do not redistribute the full source code changes: MAME32K (Kaillera) and the other MAME32 (not to be confused with the "right" MAME32). GPL would probably help here to force the source changes open, or to end the development of these particular derivative works. GPL would also allow us to re-use some non-critical code from other GPL'd projects, but personally I don't see this as a big advantage. Everything can be rewritten anyway.
In any case, even if MAME were to move to GPL, I don't think the development model would change much. Due to the dubious nature of ROMs, the developer mailing list and archive simply can not be public. A public CVS server would also be quite unlikely due to the support and maintainance nightmare. There haven't been any significant forks (unlike somebody mentioned here - changing one or two lines to remove the OK screen isn't forking) nor are we currently forbidding them - and I don't think GPL would change this situation.
Oh, and if you're wondering, mame.net is handling the Slashdot effect just fine. In fact, we've served even bigger audiences successfully. Moderators should frown any attempts of gaining karma through cut'n'pasting text from mame.net
With the death of mame.dk, mame is effectively worthless. [...] If only there was a standard for running games on multiple platforms, oh yeah... Java.
You'll find a lot of mame games in alt.binaries.emulators.mame and then there's always Kazaa or whatever favorite P2P you're using...
And as for the MAME Java client... Here it is.
Now that the source has been opened up
It hasn't. They are CONSIDERING it.
I'd love for someone to prove me wrong
There, I proved you wrong. Where's my prize? I'll like a tin of that weird goopy stuff from Think Geek. Thanx.
P.S.
I'll happily accept one of their Caffine Sampler Packs to not do this to you in the future.
I'm not above bribery, I'm a parent...
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
I sure hope it does go GPL, the CPU cores will be a real boon to umm.. umm.. well I'm sure there's someone out there somewhere trying to run linux on an arcade machine.
sig:
See the "..for smart people" banners Wired runs here? Look elsewhere guys.
I will be quite happy if MAME goes GPL, as it will solve this problem.
First and foremost, the page that contains the version of MAME32K that we "redistribute" DOES have the full source code changes quite visibly available.
.dll that allow programs to communicate over the internet that normally would not do so. Emulation is the MOST NATURAL application of the Kaillera solution due to the popularity of arcade/console games, and the interest that people have in playing against real people, instead of the computer.
Let me move on to the next point. Kaillera is NOT, I repeat, NOT MAME32K. Kaillera is a client/server application and
You have stated: GPL would probably help here to force the source changes open, or to end the development of these particular derivative works.
This is a closed-minded view at the effects of moving to the GPL. The simple fact is that true open sourcing of a program with as much interest as MAME would bring more interest to its cousins. Frequently, Kaillera has been attacked by people that have no idea how the open source licensing works. We have also been attacked by MAMEDev members who were instantly jealous at the attention that we commanded when we released new versions of the Kaillera client. This took downloads away from the core MAME project and brought them to our derivitive, MAME32K. Most of the verbal attacks that we have suffered have subsided as people began to realize that we brought people and interest to the MAME project.
-soulctcher
(On a more personal note: It does dissapoint me that someone as involved with MAME as you, Gridle, would not do a little homework before tossing accusations towards Kaillera.)
The whole ROM licensing issue is a game of pretend. The users pretend that they have a license for the ROMs they download. They do this using a click-through disclaimer during the download process. Meanwhile the copyright holders pretend that their ROMS have commercial value.
The reality is that the vast majority of users are stealing ROM data. But this is countered by the fact that the ROMs can't be monetized by the license holders anyway. Which brings up an interesting question: how can you steal something that isn't worth anything?
Now for the simple math. If I distribute 1 ROM image to ten people, and they distribute it to ten people, and the ROM itself was $10, then you are guilty of the same crime as if it was worth $50000. The limit is $1000 retail value, which you achieved when you made or caused to be made the 110 copies of the $10 piece of software.
Sorry. No way. In your case, the original distributor is only guilty of ten infringements. What the others do with the illegal software constitute completely separate crimes which can in no way be thought of as carried out by the first guy.
What is this "caused to be made" crap, anyway? You mean like if I instructed the ten people I gave it to to make ten copies each? Then you might have a point.
Strictly speaking, the law doesn't allow you to obtain a backup. You have to make it yourself. Also, the code for the cartridge is much different from the code for the arcade version, so it makes sense that a copy of one wouldn't entitle you to a copy of the other.
....yet I feel it's an important point.
iD GPL's the source for it's Engine, not the game. The levels, textures, models, even (I believe) the actual game code that says what a rocket launcher does, and etc. are still firmly in the hands of Carmack and all.
I think theres a group duplicating the original quakes textures and such with "GPL like" replacements.
Wiwi
"I trust in my abilities,
but I want more then they offer"
Dear Taito, Bally, et. al.:
We the unwashed communistic undersigned readers of slashdot do hereby beseech you to give us, for no consideration whatsoever, financial or otherwise, the right to freely copy certain items of intellectual property belonging to your companies. We understand that this would create a precedent for public ownerships and should future derivative works appear you will not be entitled to one cent of income, but we like getting stuff for free - we don't believe in intellectual property, and you know we'll just copy your shit anyway. So go on, give in to the inevitable.
(print, sign and mail)
Essentially the MAME cores make writing emulators for things much easier because all the really hard work is already done (wanna write a DOS emulator for Linux? take MAME's OPL core, 8086 CPU core, throw on some graphics emulation, and shazam!)
Emulation in general is going to become more and more important in the future for supporting legacy and closed-source software, so this could be very useful for the open-source community.
Omnes arx vestrum sunt adiuncta nobis.
Sure, there are people who are interested in only piracy, and there are people who are only interested in free games, but in a hundred years, the reason why we will have copies of arcade games from 1975 on up will be because of emulations projects like MAME.
I don't condone piracy to avoid paying for the latest game or to avoid paying a theater for a movie. But there is a difference between downloading GTA3 and downloading a 25 year old ROM that is not available for commercial sale. Not legally, but ethically.
(Btw, support Capcom. They are one of the few companies that will sell [some] older rom images)
I believe somebody mentioned this in passing, but it's possible to obtain at least a few legal CapCom ROMs if you buy the HotRod joystick or ArcadePC from HanaHo games. www.hanaho.com. While I'd love to see all the arcade games, past and present, console games, heck any game or piece of software ever created licensed under the GPL or a BSD style license, I just don't think it's realistic to believe this will happen. Nintendo is still releasing Mario Bros. games, and somebody else was correct in mentioning that most game manufacturers have realized that we really would pay to play the old games. They aren't going to GPL them and give up on future revenue for those games, or give up exclusive control of the characters in the games. In that vein, I'd love to see MAME go GPL and more deals such as the Hanaho one where we can legaly obtain old ROMs on CD, even if they're not open sourced. I'd be willing to pay a fair amount if company X said they'd sell a CD filled with ROMs for X amount of money, licensed just like any other game is licensed. Backups are okay, but redistribution isn't. Say 50-200 dollars, depending on how many games were included. A few companies might be willing to totally relinquish control of their games, but I wouldn't count on it.
Did they get permission from all of the authors to approve the license change of their code? I never heard anything. Granted, my contributions were minor and happened years ago but it would still have been nice to be notified before reading about the license change on slashdot...
Nintendo could claim their cartridge format is an encrypter, even if it doesn't use any sort of encryption software.
The GBA cart edge interface is somewhat of a cross between Intellivision's interleaved address and data bus and IDE's seek-and-read architecture. It uses no "scrambling of data" which is one of the DMCA's requirements for an "access control measure". It uses primarily a checksum validation on a header that contains some basic info about the cartridge and a 156-byte block of constant data. Claiming copyright on constant data in a header isn't a valid method of console monopoly protection (Sega v. Accolade). That ruling allows homebrew software like this to exist.
I think if they could prove the EULA came with the package and you saw it, they would win in court
I saw it, and I looked at it, but I don't think it's exactly a binding contract in most U.S. states. A binding contract comes from an offer that is accepted with a "consideration" (that is, an exchange of things of value). Because the consideration was performed (credit card to Best Buy cashier) before I opened the box and saw the offer, the offer is not a valid offer, and there is no binding contract.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Until the people from MAME announce their reasoning themselves, the issue is unsettled, but these possibilities don't seem to be left field. Thanks.
Thanks for the link.
I found tombstones from a usenet google search (should have looked harder in the first place!), and managed to find a guy in my area who'll do it for me.
Awesome!
I plan on buying one of these small console size PC's, with a half decent CPU and gfx card with TV out (for the 3D accelerated emulated games) and perhaps a 10gig HDD. Putting Gentoo Linux on it and trying as much as I can to make it look as seamless a arcade machine emulator console as I can.
Should be fun to do and plenty of fun when it's actually working.
A couple of gamepads... ; )
Move over PS2 and X box! I'm completely over all the hyper polygon, driving and fighting games. Give me Twin Cobra, Slap Fight, Wonder Boy, Galaga, etc any day!
Can anyone recommend from experience a decent little machine to base this on?
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
No, but it does define criminal piracy to only include offenses where the infringement has a "value" of $1000 or more.
This does distinguish piracy of $50,000 applications from $50 games or abandonware.
Perhaps you should stop reading things so selectively.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
That is why I put "value" in quotes.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.