Helping Your Ex-Employer?

ali_bubba asks: "A funny thing happened to me today, I have beeb unemployed for over 5 months, and all of a sudden my ex-Boss calls me and demands (well, it sounded like a demand) that I help her out, because her entire corporate LAN was down. Naturally, she knows that I'm kind person, but boy what attitude, so I did help her save the day. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me, (like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said) Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?" While I can understand that some people in this situation may harbor some ill will if place in this situation, it may behoove you to see this as an opportunity, and at the very least, an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company. It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide. For those who have been in this situation, how did you handle it? For others, if you were offered work from your old job, would you do it, and under what conditions would your perform said work?

Comments

Did she pay you?

[essell]

You only mentioned that she did not call to thank you.. Did she at least pay you for your time?

Be Polite

[BurritoWarrior]

A polite, "I'm sorry, but my current schedule precludes me from being able to help" works for me.

Of course, if you want/need the work, then just go do it at whatever rate you think is fair. Just bite your lip and don't comment one way or the other, it only leads to problems.

I've been (close to) there...

[coene]

Make sure you get paid! Is she your close friend? If so, you could be nice. If not, bill them! I would suggest billing for the time you spent there to fix this incident as well, it will send a clear signal. IT support is NOT free.

Send a consultant greeting card - big fat bill

[tuoppi]

Basic case handling fee: $500,00
Case study: $280
Rapid deployment fee: $843,00
8 workhours: 8 * $184,00 = $1472
Non-office hours: 4 * $380,00 = $1520
Travel expenses: 43 miles * $2/mile = $86,00
TOTAL: $4701

TO BE PAID: $4701 + taxes
DUE: TODAY

Your previous boss didn't ask for price. That means, he is prepared to pay anything.

Nortel Networks

[Cheese Cracker]

I was laid off on a Thursday, and the HR person at Nortel told me that I wasn't required to do any more work. Despite this, my manager called me the next day and told me to help them out with one of their online tools. Just like you, I'm sometimes a little bit too kind and helped her out anyway, because I felt that I needed the reference from them in order to get another job. Looking back, I regret helping her... after all, she was the one to put me on the hit list. Anyway, she got laid off three months after me, and I'm running my own business now.

Well... no.

[RyanFenton]

Well, seeing as the last place I was able to find work, I was only offered $5/hour... no. The guy actually had to talk to his accountant to discover the minimum wage. I'm an experienced professional C++/assembly programmer on DSPs. I was doing advertising design, web design, new product design, and planning for future PDA programming for this company too.

His other developer and his family had to live in a trailer - and the boss "gave" him a car and phone, only to hold them over his head. When he was sick for a few days, the boss had that phone disconnected.

The boss even proclaimed to be an experienced Europian developer, and he did fluently speak several languages... so I'm amazed he could treat people that way... and much worse than that on many occasions too. But his company was the only place that would even allow a computer person with less than 3 years experience find a job. He even made quitting a huge hassle - I had to research and quote many specific laws before he dismissed me with "it's not worth my time" to get paid for my two weeks there, even at minimum wage.

Now I'm still looking for a job... any job. And I can't. I haven't for months. I've called half the numbers in the yellow pages and looked at all the leads in all towns within three hours drive. I have to say, looking for work as a programmer in central Florida REALLY sucks.

Ryan Fenton

Don't burn bridges...

[CDS]

I had a similar situation -- I was laid off the 1st of the year. In the following months, my previous firm contacted me regularly, mostly asking how I was doing, letting me know they wanted me back & were looking for ways to accomplish that, etc.

Then one day I got a call from them. They had a customer who wanted some work done, but it was such a small job that just drafting the agreement would be more expensive than the job was worth. They contacted me and told me if I wanted to freelance the job, they'd put me in touch with the customer. I accepted it (of course). it turned out that it was too small for even a freelance charge, but I answered the guys question and it generated positive advertising for my previous firm.

A month later, I got another call from them -- another freelance job - this one was for the wife of the head of my old firm. I again accepted it and his wife was happy with my results.

Then my old manager called. He didn't have a freelance offer this time -- he wanted some advice on how to collect unemployment! (yeah, business got so bad the managers were being let go...) So I was very helpful & supportive of him too -- told him where to go to sign up, what the process was, etc.

Then I got one last call -- now I'm working full-time for my old firm again. They were so happy with my attitude and willingness to help them out even after letting me go that they found a spot for me & I'm gainfully employed again -- with my full benefits just like I never left (3 weeks vacation, I'm vested, etc). Admittedly, it WAS a paycut from my old salary, but in this market, I'm not complaining :)

Sorry about all the rambling. I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is: Don't burn your bridges. Having a positive attitude and being willing to help them out can never hurt - it can only help. Even if they don't have any openings, they may hear of other firms that need people & could suggest you -- or give you a positive review when a future employer starts checking references. You never know when someone may be talking to them and your name may come up...

Intro to negotiating for younger contractors

[watanabe]

This is a classic problem for people who are just starting to contract out. As someone who use to contract out, and someone who now frequently hires young contractors, I can give you a few thoughts from both sides of the fence:

1. Every employer worth working for will expect to pay you something for your time. A helpful employer working with a young contractor will bring up the topic of compensation for you. Don't expect that to happen.

   Here's how to bring up the topic of compensation if you're not talking to a particularly helpful one:

   • Say "I'd be happy to help, and I think I have a good mix of skills to do that. My going rate is $x an hour, with a minimum of $y."
   • Agree on a price with yourself before you sit down to the negotiation. Until you've done this for a while, you're going to talk yourself down in the meeting. So, you'll intend to say the above, but instead you'll say "My going rate is $x an hour. [1 second pause, in which you think "Oh my God, that's too high. They're going to be angry."] But, for you, $x/3." I have done this, and seen it happen so many times, I can't even count them. Younger types sometimes have their hands shake when they say their price. That's a sure tip-off to an employer that they can lowball an offer.
   • When you're starting out, it's almost IMPOSSIBLE that you are going to ask for a price higher than you're worth. I know it won't feel like it, but believe me, it's true. Use the following calculation to get at a price you SHOULD NOT go lower than in your offer: Take your fair Annual Salary, divide by $2,000. This is what you would get in salary per hour as a full time employee of a company. Now, multiple by 1+ (50% for taxes and expenses + at least 50% to account for sales time, time you're not working, time you spend pitching and doing project spec and evaluation + 50-80% to account for the employers lower costs hiring a contractor, [no social security, medicare, can fire you when they want, etc.] ) = multiply by 2.8 as a BASELINE. It's not worth going below this number, trust me. You are losing money, net. So, if you made 60k as a programmer, that = $30 an hour * 2.8 = $94/hr as a baseline.
   • If you want to get to your baseline number, you can't start there with an offer. Start higher. That way IF you are talked down, you have some room before you have to say "no, sorry."
   • Don't be afraid to say "Sorry, sounds like it won't work. Call me if you change your mind." If you're never turned down at a certain price, you are too cheap!.
   • NEVER work with an employer who asks for free work, etc. You should prove your value to them, but not by doing free work. Just say "Actually, I don't work in situations like that because I've found that usually people who want a situation like that aren't prepared to pay for my real value." If they ask again, just say goodbye. TRUST ME, the money that you finally get out of them WILL NOT BE WORTH IT.
2. Sadly, I'm late, and have to go before I finish, but for a simple book on how to negotiate, I'd recommend Gary Karrass' book, Negotiate to Close. Good luck!

I've had worse

[geek]

My ex boss was on the phone with the FBI telling them I hacked the network and took down the webserver (nationwide ISP with ONE webserver).

One of the othe employees called me and told me (good friend) and advised that I call him. So I did, and within 30 seconds the server was up and all was dandy. I didn't get a thankyou, just a "If you do it again I'm going through with the FBI complaint".

The dumb ass he replaced me with switched out the BSD kernel for the GENERIC one which couldn't handle the apache requests without running out of file handles. Of course it's all my fault.

So consider yourself lucky she called for help. It could have been much worse.

my story, or how I didn't get sued on my birthday

[LuxFX]

Several years ago, I had a small contract to do flash design for the website for a small indie film. The pay structure was divided 25%, 25%, and 50% for the final. The first two were fine, and the project was going smoothly. After finishing the project though, I kept getting the run around about my final payment.

Eventually they had the premiere of the movie, and I was invited. At this premiere I was told that, sorry, they had no more money, and couldn't pay me. They had overestimated the $$ in their bank, and it turns out the last of their money was spent on the refreshments for their premiere party. Sucks to be me, but I didn't counter them legally, it was less than $1000 and I just wrote it off as a loss and broke all connections.

About a year later, the same people thought that they were finally getting a bite on their movie, and decided they desperately needed to update their website. They contacted me and asked why they had never received the source code for their movie, as per the contract--they needed it so that so-and-so's cousin, who 'knew flash' could update the website. I told them, because I had never gotten paid, also per the contract. When they didn't pay me, I said, the contract was broken.

At this point they got really upset and brought in so-and-so's uncle the lawyer and told me that what I had made was a piece of crap and the money they already paid more than covered the value of the project. And that if I continued to resist, they would sue me.

This was on my birthday. I've never had a bad birthday since. No matter what happens, I will always remember how this one was worse.

Eventually, after spending half my birthday on the phone, I knew what I had to do. Like I said, the original amount just wasn't enough to call a lawyer about, and I decided this wasn't either. Also, I had no money and even if I won this case it would be on the other side of the country which was just more money out of my pocket. So I told them, ok, I'll give you the source code exactly as it is right now, and you'll leave me alone for good and neither one of us ever talks to the other one. Ok, they said.

What was my trick? My code (and my flash movies are highly dependant on actionscript) was completely uncommented. It would have been a beast for me to figure out, and more so for somebody else that knew flash as well as I did. And much more so for so-and-so's cousin that 'knew flash'.

In the end, they got off my back, I wasn't sued on my birthday, and I came out feeling like I had won anyway. Because they were never able to figure out my source, and were never able to update their website. (and incidentally, never sold their movie)

Re:Simple solution...

[emag]

I actually have a friend who was a contract employee, doing all sorts of security infrastructure for some a company working for some rather large clients. He's not really bothered finding a new job in several months, but recently got a call early one morning from his old boss, who was frantic because everything was down. Unfortunately, he lowballed himself, but got a couple days of work out of the call to fix what the folks left behind had royally screwed up.

I think he was most pleased with not realizing that, while on a conference call with the people who broke everything, the clients AND a lot of upper management were listening in, and based on what he'd said (ripping these guys a couple new assholes), the buffoons ended up being fired for a) making unannounced upgrades to a production system, b) completely failing to read release notes in the service packs they'd installed which detailed that *exactly* what happened would happen if they were installed on the version of software running.

The "$200 an hour, minimum 8 hours" was the result of several of us doing a post-mortem on the lowballing. In truth, due to the situation, he could have likely commanded at least twice that (which illustrates just how critical these systems were to the people with Big Bucks).

Wrong way

[Ektanoor]

Many people think that IT personell are some kind of running clerks at a cafe. These ones have absolutely no respect for your brains, your experience and your sweet. More, they tend to hide their incompetence, ignorance and stupidity behind a mask of arrogance and superiority. If your ex-boss called you demanding something, the first thing you should have done was to say "Cool but that will cost you US$XXXX...". If he comes up with threats and dubious statements about your past work, you better send him fast to Hell and tell him to forget your name and your phone.

Beware that you open-hearthed behaviour could have caused more damage rather than help to yourself. There are times when old bosses start to talk too much about their ex-employees as "smarties that left hacks and bombs to spoil our work". And when you come back and do something in half-second, they may try to use it to make a serious accusation that you tried to crook them. While I have never seen such stories getting to courts, there are pretty real examples how ex-bosses tried to extort cheap work out of their ex-employees by playing such scenarios. Personally, many years ago, I was in such situation and things nearly ended in a violent fight inside a "respectable" commercial bank.

Re:whos bitch are you?

[Wavicle]

When we're all dead, people will remember us for the kind deeds we did while we were walking the streets and talking the talk. The little league team you coached

Yes!

volunteering at a Mormon church

Yes!

and all those bake sales for the PTA will be what you were best known for.

Yes!

You are talking about deeds done for noble causes, for the public good, and for positive karma (no, not THAT karma :) ). I don't think that putting out a fire for a for-profit corporate entity is in the same ballpark.

The only shitty part is you'll just be tossed into the Hudson River because you and your socialist family members don't have the money for a proper funeral and burial.

You could always donate your body for academic research. Hopefully that academic research won't be the effect of the Hudson River on cadavers. Mother Theresa lived to help the needy, her funeral wasn't too shabby.

Re:Installation-specific questions

[King_TJ]

Speaking of documenting what you do, it's my opinion that employees in I.T. would be wise to limit how much of this documentation they write.

If you're writing lots of documentation for an employer, you should be getting paid as a "technical writer". If you're employed as an I.T. worker and they're demanding lots of documentation - you need to question it.

After all, they should be paying you for your knowledge and expertise. Would you expect your doctor to write up documentation for you so you can self-diagnose future problems?

When they start asking for lots of this, there's usually a boss masterminding it, with a flawed idea that he can "brain drain" you so his other people can perform your job. In reality, they should be hiring people who already possess the skills they need, or are capable of learning them on their own. They shouldn't need *your* documentation to achieve that goal.

Re:The old joke

[ACNeal]

This story reminds me of another.

A company I used to work for had a pretty good record of treating women poorly, and long time employees poorly. They were an insurance company.

A lady who had been there for over 30 years decided it was time to quit. She walked in one day, without any real notice, and tendered her resignation. She gave a month, to be fair, but no one new she was planning this before hand.

She was a licensed (certified) actuary, and the entire actuarial department at this life insurace company. An insurance company without an actuary is like an accounting firm without an accountant, just bookkeepers.

She worked her month, took a long (about two month vacation), and came back. The first I knew she had quit was when I over heard one of the gossips back in my department (IS) griping about what she was making. The gossip in question handled the printing of checks.

The actuary came back billing $350 an hour, because they needed her services.

They kept her on like that for the rest of the time I was working there (about another year at least). They couldn't find anyone to take her place.

Do it all the time

[phorm]

I still keep contact with an ex-boss of mine who works in the web industry. I actually have a small part stock in the company based on work I've done, but I really do it because I like him, the company, and what they do. I do the same for other people I know, as long as I'm not super-busy, I'd rather be doing something productive than sitting on the couch with a beer on my stomach.

I'm sure it's different for a big company, but I do what I do because I enjoy it. I've been offered to do more work again recently, but this time it's for pay because I'm more busy and thus my time is valuable.

That being said, it's one thing to ask somebody you're on good terms with. It's another to "demand" assistance and then not give help. Geeze, I work expect to at least be offered dinner or a few drinks in such a circumstance.

Reminds me of back in college, when I accepted food/drinks for fixing people's computers... :-)