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The Washington Post has a story about the proliferation of extra fees tacked on to just about every product or service under the sun. A couple of good insights make it worth the read.
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I had a conference in Vancouver in October. When I flew into Vancouver's airport I found out, much to my surprise, that I would have to pay 15 Canadian dollars just to leave the place (this fee not being included in my ticket). The airport authority called it an "Airport Improvement Tax". My only thought was, "I don't care what this airport looks like, I'm only going to be here a couple of hours".
Patriotism is the opium of the masses
the proliferation of extra fees tacked on to just about every product or service under the sun
...like Slashdot.
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My boss gets lots of complaints because we pass the 3% credit card charge on directly. Like somehow people who pay with cash or check should subsidize the credit industry.
I hate that sort of thing. It first really hit me when I got an unexpected $1 fee for using an ATM. Not the fee from the ATM's owner--a fee from MY OWN BANK for not using a preferred ATM network! After that I just came unglued (switched banks too).
In the end, I think it's all just part of the game. Most people are so jaded about "the value of service" anymore that the only way to sell something is with the lowest price. A lot of these fees serve no other function than to allow the price to represent the real value of whatever it is you're paying for. No longer do we live in an age where many aspects of the transaction are rolled into an "overhead account". Everything seems to be billed in excruciating detail!
While it largely makes sense, I long for the days when bills were simpler.
I think Mauve has the most RAM. --PHB (Dilbert Comic)
Get this new 2ghz 200gb/hd 256mb/ram computer free! See deails... Price doesn't include shipping, handling, delivery fee, order fee, fat lazy ass fee, dumb ass fee, silicon surcharge, cd fee, bill gates payoff fee, electricity licence, electicity processing fee, ordering this-fee, and several other fees and licences. Total price: $5000
- extra local taxes
- the hard-sell "collision damage waiver,"
- the charge for an extra driver
- the ever-popular "refueling charge" should you not fill up the tank.
- At the San Francisco airport a $12 surcharge helps pay for the car-rental shuttle bus
- a state-mandated $10 at Boston's Logan Airport helps fund the city's new convention center
- last month, also in Boston, Dollar Rent a Car slapped on a $1.84 daily "peak-season" fee
I am renting a car in the near future, where they also threw on a "Premium Station Surcharge" for picking the car up from the airport instead of a local station. That comes to around 20USD. Plus, often, you have limited kilometres, so you had better count on adding on a few dollars if you go too far....Basically he says that the marketing and advertsing people pull the wool over the eyes of the consumer with friendly deals and offers that the consumers dont realize they're being, as Carlin puts it, fucked in the ass! Good stuff, LOL :)
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Traveled to Houston recently. my rental car charge was DOUBLED by taxes and extra fees... to the tune of around 400$ for the week.
I don't know what the hell they are building in Houston that justifies that level of extra tax and local fees, (airport tax, use tax, local tax, etc, etc).
That kind of nonsense kills me... "Oh, did I mention that a few additional charges and taxes are added... that'll be DOUBLE what you thought it would be! Thanks for doing business with us!"
Yeah, thanks... it was good for me too.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
It definitely makes you think though. I noticed all the extra taxes and fees and such on my phone bill, but like the article says, I never paid a great deal of attention to them. Now I'm going to start shopping around and see what better deals I can get.
I've had it with Bank One. My next paycheck is going into a new checking account with a new bank that isn't going to hold me upside down and shake me for loose change.
Rented a Chevy cavalier for two days from LaGuadia (LGA), it was like 78/day with the insane taxes (yeah, really, for a cavalier - but I *had* to, so alright, I will part the 155 dollars).
When I returned it, they charged me 110 dollar *per*day* of "under age fee" because I am under 25. AND they taxed the fscking fee (at the same 17-18% rate which I have no idea where comes from)! is that funny, eh? considering in CA AVIS charges like 10-15 dollars for the same underage deal, I can just smell "bullshit."
If I didn't check the reciept, they'd probabbly just let it slip (I think if you don't file a complaint right away or some such, you waive your rights after a certain time). Eventually it got sorted out and such, but still it took a several phone calls, placed on hold, explanations, transfered, re-explanations, the whole works.
Point is, be careful out there, guys (and gals) - companies will rape you when they have the chance, so check your bills and add things up. And yeah - renting from AVIS in LGA is not a good idea.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Dana Chase, director of acquisition and retention in Sprint's consumer long-distance marketing division, said its property tax surcharge "reflected the cost of our business that we needed to recover." Chase added: "We felt it was better for the customer to add a special line item than adding it into the permanent rate."
/. For giving me the opportunity to vent from time to time. ;)
Yeah, and I feel that it would be better if you could itemize your entire business model on my bill. I mean WTF? Do I really need to know how they run their business? No; I really don't give a rat's ass.
Oh, but that would mean you would have to raise the price that we agreed to in our contract, doesn't it. The same contract that is 500 pages long, all worded in _your_ favor, but you couldn't find one single section that allowed you to increase the rate that was agreed upon. And now you decided that your business 'needed to recover' some cost so you just 'added a special line'.
I know I'm on a long rant here, but let me say this: I'm getting SICK AND TIRED of these f*cking companies that make me agree to pages and pages of agreements and yet there is no credibility on their side. What's wrong with people? It's like no-one is willing to stand behind their product. If they screw up I am turning out to be the person to pay for it. Damn that pisses me off.
Anyways, I'd like to thank
The local Cable co has been running an ad over and over for the past couple years that criticizes satelite companies for tacking on extra fees... One example is the extra monthly charge for a second reciever. Of course, they don't mind being blatanly hypocritical.
Their new Digital Cable package sounded a lot cheaper, but adding in the little extra charges that they include, I was paying even more per-month... I canceled on the spot.
Most people may not notice, but I notice, and I reject it on principal alone, not to mention that going with the seemingly more expensive options usually save you money in the end.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
you seem to be living in a different UK than me. I attempted to pay my BT bill at HSBC (THEIR FUCKING BANK!) and was told I'd need to pay a £5 fee for paying my bill; I attempted to pay my MBNA bill at the Royal Bank of Scotland (THEIR FUCKING BANK!) in CASH and was informed that I'd need to pay a £20 fee and that the payment "could take up to four days" to be registered on my account; I attempted to pay another credit card account £500 in cash over the counter at a nationwide branch only to be refused because "we don't have the facilities to deal with large amounts of cash at this branch". What?? A bank that can't deal with money? Fuck them all, I now bank with smile - and they haven't tried to fuck me over YET.
That was classic intercourse!
Adding the 3% to the bill if the customer is paying by credit card is a sure way to piss off the credit card company. They might even revoke your ability to accept credit cards.
I know of many restaurants in NY which rather than take the 3% loss on transactions (which at busy places can cost tens of thousands at the end of the year), have an ATM installed on site. Wanna pay by CC? Sure, go use the ATM. Now instead of losing 3% on the sale, the business gains $1.00 (other $1.00 goes to ATM vendor).
As a new parent, I can tell you that the babies already charge a ton of those to me... :-)
Cheers,
Ian
When I booked a trip to Florida last summer, my travel agent offered a special deal on a car rental (with Dollar). I could rent the car for a high daily rate, but there would be no extra surcharges, and that was guaranteed! I took one look at the list of possible surcharges and decided to go with the all-inclusive deal. Did I get a good price? I don't have a clue, probably not... but I paid no additional surprise fees to Dollar, the airport, or any additional taxes.
The article is dead-on: people are willing to pay for convenience.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Long story but a valuable note at the end for some...
I got my first credit card so I could get an Internet account. The interest on it was outrageous so I paid it off monthly.
This went on for years until one morning I discovered my car had been stolen. Fearing that there might have been some old mail in the glove compartment, I got all of my cards(including other cards at better interest rates) cancelled, reported as stolen, and reissued with a different number.
While calling people who charged my first credit card monthly(three accounts and a few online services) I accidentally gave them the number of one of my newer cards. I didn't bother making the necessary corrections because it didn't matter to me.
A week later, the issuer of the first card sent a replacement but left the expiration date the same which was two months away. I put it away and ignored it.
The date of expiration on the card came and went and I got nothing. Not having any outstanding balance and not receiving any mention from the issuer I assumed they had dropped me.
Two years later, I get a monthly statement from these guys. Surprised, I look at it and it's several dollars for maintenance. It seems that they assumed I still had a valid card and since I did not use it they were going to charge me for the honor of not using it(a new policy it seems).
Politely, I explained that they never issued me an updated card, their interest rates were too high, they could cancel my card, and I wasn't paying the fee. Worked like a charm.
On a side note: for the few who read this, it *really* pays to call your credit card issuer, act dumb, and ask them why their interest rates are so high(even if they aren't).
Tell them about all the mail you get about other issuers promising lower interest rates(you get those all the time, remember those numbers).
Tell them about how those cards are offering to transfer your balance for *free*.
Explain that you like to do business with them but those offers are tempting and, "Is there anything you can do?"
Although I have relatively good credit(I think) I have heard from others that this will work even if you are really bad. The worse thing that can happen is they say no and you can brush it off with an "OK, just checking" attitude.
Try it. It *REALLY* works!
This is half business as usual, but half the result of the ongoing corporatization of America... The majority of publicly held companies face serious pressure to make greater and greater (not just sustainable) profits for obvious reasons. As most shareholders only have an interest in the return on their investment, they don't give a shit about how it happens. Thats what these upper-management types get paid to do; squeeze as much profit out of the company as possible, regardless of the way customers or the environment or (insert innocent victim here) is affected. And, take the fall for the shareholders when they screw up enough to get in trouble legally, or in some way that adversely affects profits.
As the article says, the fees that are shown separately as fees are done so very intentionally...You don't see anywhere on your wireless bills your share of the $415,000 in PAC campaign contributions that SBC made in 2002 alone. Or, the $548,000 that AT&T made.
Or, conversely, that they receive millions in 'corporate welfare' every year in the forms of subsidies and tax breaks that don't translate into lower prices, but....You guessed it:
Higher profits!
In general, people should have the option of negotiating specific, binding contracts with sellers or service providers, be it in the travel industry or anywhere else, with full disclosure of all fees ahead of time, and with a well-specified duration. On the other hand, doing business under contracts that give companies the option of changing their contractual obligations unilaterally at any time should simply be outlawed. Until it is, do business with companies that make commitments.
*Cough* I live in New Hampshire, you insensitive clod!
I spent a year in Iraq looking for WMD and all I found was this lousy sig.
You seem to have a problem with taxes that are included in the prices. I absolutely don't. I don't care what fraction of my gas money goes to the government when I buy gas; I care about that only when I go to the election box (and then, I think that gas taxes are actually too low).
And the value of the services you get from the government? Less than %10 of what you pay in taxes-- thats how much you're being ripped off.
Yes, and do you know where most discretionary spending is going? It's going into the defense budget. Those supposedly fiscally conservative Republicans are outdoing themselves in spending money. I agree I'm being ripped off by this, but what can I do?
At least let us invest our own social security money if we choose to-- there's no acceptable reason not to, unless it really is just a fund for the congress to raid whenever they want a raise.
Social security is not a retirement plan, it's a fall-back. It doesn't make sense for you to invest it yourself.
HSBC=Hong Kong and Shanghai banking corporation. As they say in Hong Kong, Ka-ching! That will teach round eyed foreign devil to use Chinese bank.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Yet, do they charge less for customers who use less than average? I think not.
Sprint decided to charge some of its PCS wireless customers -- primarily those with poor credit ratings who were on a special price plan -- $3 when they wanted to speak to a customer-service representative.
The less money you have, the more expensive everything is for you. The more expensive everything is for you, the less money you have. Now even insurance companies charge you more if you have less-than-perfect credit. Cell phone companies charge you more. Land utility companies charge you more. I've even seen surcharges on Apartments, Hotels, and Rental Cars for less-than-perfect credit.
a state-mandated $10 at Boston's Logan Airport helps fund the city's new convention center
This is a privately levied tax! Amazing! Basically, a for-profit piublicly run private venture (convention centers are all for-profit, and have nothing to do with the public good, hence they are private) taxing people who don't even have the right to vote in that area.
Dollar Rent a Car slapped on a $1.84 daily "peak-season" fee -- "leaf-peeping season," you know.
Why don't they use their GPS tracking to detect when renters drive the cars on popular leaf-peeping routes and charge the fee that way? It'd be like being able to put a private virtual toll anywhere! They already do this to detect when customers leave the "allowed" area, and charge them heftily if they do...
Meanwhile, for the privilege of paying a credit card bill over the phone, Citigroup charges $9.95.
How can it possibly be legal to charge someone for paying their debt to you?! Oh wait, it's free if they mail in a check, so the creditor can hold onto it until it's late, then charge more fees... You're basically paying for the proof that you paid on time.
It has launched a preferred-guest program that,.... to any customer who signs up. And the cost of signing up is also free....
customers who sign up for this preferred service tend to spend 25 percent more than the average guest
Doesn't sound very "free" does it?
How do they do it?
There is software out there called "Customer Relationship Management" (CRM) software that many banks, insurers, and utility companies are using to target fees and customer services. There are several ways this is accomplished using the profitability score, the risk score, and the opportunity score:
1) When you call customer service, you punch in your account number. The computer looks your account up and if you're a "good" customer (i.e. profitable), you get bumped to the head of the queue. If not, you wait.. and wait.... and wait..
2) The computer periodically measures the profitability of your account. If you are a very profitable customer, it may reduce or relax fees on your accounts.
3) If you start to pile up money in your bank account, the computer will sell your personal information to places like mortgage lenders, car lenders, and other high-dollar financing brokers to start trying to separate you from that money.
4) If your average balances start to decline, down go your scores and up go your fees!
5) Use all of your cell phone minutes every month without going over, and all three of your scores drop and you'll never get decent customer service. Some cell phone companies are even working on technology that will decrease the likelihood of your call being dropped depending on your profitability score; when there is contention between customers on a crowded cell. Say there is a full cell, and a highly-profitable customer drives into it - the software will determine which unprofitable customers can be dropped so that the profitable customer doesn't get dropped.
6) If a bank is taken over, this software determines which accounts the suitor keeps, and which ones are sold off to other subprime banks (probably with higher fees).
7) Pay off that credit card balance every month, and you'll start to see your interest rate drop gradually in order to encourage you to carry a balance (I know for a fact Capital One does this. I have a card and for every month I pay my balance in full, my daily rate drops by a few ten-thousandths of a percent). Conversesly, you may also see 'participation' fees levied against you if you don't ever pay interest.
8) You may also see 'participation' fees if you don't use your card for a number of consecutive billing cycles.
9) Call customer service frequently? Maybe you better think twice about that
10) Paying $4 to use a teller at your bank? Profitable customers don't have to. (i.e. you have your mortgage with them)
Exercise some critical thinking skills and I'm sure you can see where people you do business with will look for opportunities to measure your profitability. Once you can see where they are trying to manipulate you, you can turn it around and begin to manipulate the system in your favor.
- never charged a monthly fee for any account
- provided me with a free supply of printed checks
- called me (years ago) when the interest rates on money markets became higher than those in my savings account just to ask would it be ok if they transfered part of my savings to a money market account?
- provided an ATM card with 16 free uses per month (half for merchants / half for cash withdrawal)
- provided a list of credit unions in my area which have no-service-charge ATMs (there are no local branches of my Credit Union)
- provided free on-line banking which gets better each year
- introduced their on-line bill paying service with two free years of use, then, after charging for it for a year, they reduced the monthly fee.
Maybe not all of them are as good as this one, but they do generally behave as though service to members is important. There is an alternative to fee happy banks and you should seek them out.Indeed.
Today I bought a 25$ ticket from ticketmaster--$6.50 "convenience fee", $4 handling fee, $1.50 shipping charge.
Which would be reasonable except that delivery consisted of generating a pdf for me to download and print.
"Homeowners look at interest rates and points, but they don't spend a lot of time comparing other fees that make up the closing costs -- even though a lot of money is on the table."
Points have always pissed me off. Points are extortion charged by the lender to convince them to make you a loan - even if you have good credit. Another little advantage to this scheme is that they are the equivalent of interest charged up front. Each point is equal to 1/8 of a percent of interest on the loan amount, and it's paid up front.
The real trick is that it's the equivalent of that interest rate charged over the life of the loan. This would be fine if you kept the loan over the full 30 year (or whatever) term. However, based on turnover and people selling, moving, etc., the average loan is only kept for 7 years. Therefore the effective interest rate increase can be many times higher.
Considering the cost of homes and the amount loaned, this can be many thousands of dollars that you get screwed out of.
Bottom line: unless you're going to keep the loan over it's full term, never pay points. It's just not worth it. Take a slightly higher interest rate up front. Of course, YMMV so check it out and do some math based on the how long you expect be in that particular home and loan.
Another one is "document prep fees" when buying a car. This one is for filling out the form and processing the title at the MVD/DMV. This can run into the hundreds of dollars and it represents a few minutes writing your name and address on a form and writing a check to your local MVD/DMV office. Sure you might wait in line a while, but the folks there generally try to be helpful and can certainly tell you what you need to get titled and licensed. Is $300 - 400 worth eliminating the (maybe) frustration of that process? Personally, I'd ask for the MSO (Manufacteror's Statement of Origin) and do my own title work (with the help of the MVD/DMV clerk if necessary.)
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. - George Orwell or George Bush?
Has this thing called a "number portability surcharge." I called once to ask what it was. Basically, it allows me to keep my phone number if I switch to another phone company. This is a land-line, mind you, and gee, our small town has a monopoly phone company! Who am I going to switch to?
This stuff makes me want to start a competitor just for spite.
Fees like this particularly infuriate me. I am currently looking into other banks after first union(wachovia now?) decided to start charging 50 cents every time you pay with something with your atm card. This after they'd finally dropped their 1.00 fee in addition to the 1.50 you pay to atm owners for getting money at a damn 7-11. The article does make one good point though - companies that play their marketing off consumer frustration with fees can make a bundle. I recently stayed at a wyndham, the hotel chain listed in the article. It sounds stupid, but the fact that I signed up for a free program and now can count on free internet access, free ld phone calls (!), extra pillows, and a free (as in beer) beer whenever I walk into my room there will make me choose them over just about any other chain. Other hotels could take a big lesson from them, especially certain "luxury" hotels whose idea of "business services" is putting analog jacks on the sides of the phones so you can pay 10 bucks in service fees to check your email over dialup, and allowing you to receive faxes for a dollar. Give me broadband in the room and I'll stop bitching about how there's only 5 non-pay channels on the tv.
I went to a show at the Chicago House of Blues, and I thought I might buy the ticket online to make sure it wasn't sold out by the time I got to the door.
What started as a $14 ticket had a $.75 fee if you wanted to print your ticket off the internet, a $2 day-of-show price increase, both of which seemed fairly reasonable (though they should be giving ME a discount for printing my own ticket). Without any warning at all, at checkout, they tacked on a $3 'transaction fee' and a $5.50 per-ticket 'handling fee,' and a $1 building maintenance fee, PLUS tax, (which is not applied at the door), and my total came out to $29.67, MORE THAN TWICE THE ORIGINAL TICKET PRICE.
um, I took my chances at the door, and got in for $14. Too bad that's not an option for most bigger venues.
My mother in law was in Mexico on a tiny little island, and as the plane was about to take off, the military and police stopped it for not having the official duties paid, this amounted to going seat to seat and getting 15 USD for every person. Needless to say they all had the cash to pay, but never told a soul that there was an issue about it until the plane was ready to take off. No one ever saw one official document. Hmmmm...
*Cough*. B-S. *Cough*.
My boss, who worked for CNN for decades was recently in Mexico, and he just keeps a wad of cash with him when he pulls out his news camera to work down there. I'd say about 1/3 of the people that I have talked to about Mexico have been shaken down by the police because they are foreign.
Needless to say, I went to Mexico. Great place. Same place as the relatives. No plane fee for me leaving. Surprise. But you can bank it that I had at least 50 USD for me and my wife when we got on the plane.
After all, in Mexico policing is a for profit business. You should assume like I do that the police are massively crooked whenever you go to a foreign nation, and be surprised when they are not.
You know, it always somehow made sense to me that ticket master could charge a convenience fee for tickets. The idea was that they had to charge a small enough amount that you didn't decide that it was too much and just go over to the actual box office and buy it without the service charge. However, the amount they charge these days is f'ing ridiculous.
I wanted to go to a show recently where the venue is 200 yards from my house. I figured, ha! here's a chance to actually go to the box office and avoid the surcharge! It turns out that they have closed their box office, because no one was using it, you can only buy tickets through ticketmaster/bass or whatever. And the fee is like 35% of the cost of the ticket! When there was actually an alternative I would blissfully accept Tm's business model (and bend over), but now that there isn't an alternative at all. Anyone else have this happen (ie. tried to buy from a box office, when there no longer was one)? Alternatively, anyone ever get charged by ticketmaster when buying the ticket AT THE BOX OFFICE?
yeah, so instead you pay ludascrisly high property taxes. even if you rent. the amount of the rent goes up when the house costs more to own.
plus. you live in new hampshire. 'nuff said.
I kind of assumed in USA *everything* was a "for profit business".
Certainly US-slashdot posters often indicate a preference for no government unless avoidable, no taxes where possible, etc. I read this as one of the messages from the original article, that local authorities were collecting income from people through indirect taxation rather than direct taxation.
Maybe things just cost money, and paying for them ultimately comes down to each of us, but it simply boils down to how the organisations get the money out of us.
(BTW I find your assumption that "police are massively crooked whenever you go to a foreign nation", i.e. the whole world is crooked apart from the USA, naive and xenophobic to say the least. Some of your police hardly have an international reputation for integrity).
Some of your police hardly have an international reputation for integrity.
That's because we like to blame our problems on everything. Our news has to have something to blame. Our politicians do it too. We like to complain, because if we didn't everything would be boring and we would have no goals. Its good that people feel insecure so they will be driven to spend money on ways to feel safe. Actually, its very peaceful here in the USA. Just don't tell anyone.
My question, how does Visahave a right to determine what retailers charge their customers.
Can you say "oligopoly", boys and girls? Just like a monopoly, but instead of having just one company controlling everything, there's two or three, and they all set the same fees and policies and don't actively compete against each other.
You'll never hear an advertisement that Visa is better than Mastercard - just better than American Express. You'll never hear an advertisement that Mastercard is better than Visa either. In fact, I don't really remember Discover ads mentioning either Visa or Mastercard. Hmmm.
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It's actually against PP's TOS to charge extra for a PP transaction as well (and it was this way even before Ebay bought them):
You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment.
"People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
And "since there is only so much space and weight an aircraft can accommodate," there's "an additional fee for passengers who require more than the average."
This is bullshit. What they should say is that it's more costly to offer the same level of service/guarantee that they offer with a paper ticket -- which they don't.
There's a lot more to the ticket fee issue than meets the eye. The public is aware of it, and it's why they still insist on paper tickets. What's the deal? Well, if you read the fine print, you'll see that an electronic ticket is a completely different class of ticket. It's a different contract. Basically, they have the right to bump you first if the plane is overbooked, or even if someone shows up at the last minute and is willing to pay full pop. With an electronic ticket, you're the low man on the totem pole. Of course airlines are pushing these, because it gives them carte blanche to do what they want with you, overbook flights, etc. Some e-tickets even have fine print about not being responsible for delivering checked luggage, etc.
Be really careful with e-tickets. Read the fine print. I do, and I've always found it well worth it to pay the difference, and even to wait in line.