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Jobs for Students - Where Are They?
jtpalinmajere asks: "The past few years students like myself have found themselves in an ominously precarious situation. This is to say that the availability for jobs in the computer industry that are suited well for fresh meat graduates are dwindling at an alarming rate. Personally, I graduate this coming Spring and have been job searching for the past semester with little if any success at finding a prospective future employer. The placement office at my university hasn't been too helpful for many students in the CS department. The only companies that I have come in contact with that might consider fresh graduates are Microsoft and government agencies such as the FBI. If I can actually compete with the 76% foreign immigrant population of Microsoft then I might see that as a fairly good start, though the odds don't seem to roll in my favor. As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security. Most of my job searching has been conducted through services like Dice and Monster. 99% of the jobs listed in these services require 2 - X many years of previous experience using Y software with a current Z security clearance level. I've even found one company that wants 10 years experience specifically with .NET -- go figure! I'm not looking for the dream job that everyone hopes to one day attain. I'm looking for a job that will simply get me into the industry with a meager salary large enough to sustain life. How many other students find themselves in my position? What are some opinions, particularly from our non-students, for soon to be graduates like myself?"
Did you do any internships while in college or coop? One of the most helpful job resources I found are my "ex-coworkers" and "friends of friends". If they like you and know you can perform good, people will keep an extra eye out for leads and/or possible openings.
Network...
Don't burn bridges...
Wear clean underwear...
?...
Profit
-- ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space!
The only companies that I have come in contact with that might consider fresh graduates are Microsoft and government agencies such as the FBI. If I can actually compete with the 76% foreign immigrant population of Microsoft then I might see that as a fairly good start, though the odds don't seem to roll in my favor.
I think you will find that the vast majority of non-US citizens at Microsoft, or any other organization that hire H1Bs for that matter, aren't fresh graduates, but were already experienced software developers before the H1B is granted. It would be very difficult under the terms of H1B to hire fresh graduates, as one of the conditions is that the holder must have skills that are not in ready supply in the US.
Therefore, these people are entirely irrelevant; you wouldn't be competing with them for an entry level job anyway.
50% of jobs out there arn't advertised.
Go to the employers directly, send in your resume. It shows initiative if you call a company and ask to speek to HR or the hirer, depending on the size of the company.
I work for a small company (im not out of uni yet) and have heard that small companies are good for jobs, but don't advertise much. I hear this stuff through the "channel". Network some Wetware and hunt down a job.
Being a (nearly-finished) student, I can vouch for the troubles that can be had trying to find a job in the industry at the moment. I was lucky enough to study a course (Multimedia) that has a year of work placement between 2nd and 3rd year. Our uni boasted a "100% placement rate" for these before my year (2001). Obviously things went downhill from there. I was lucky enough to secure a place (it wasn't my first choice) and hang on through the tough times. I kept working through final year and now have a full time job to go. I've also had 2 years experience at the same time (:
All I can suggest is that you seek out any opportunity to work while you study - the workload is heavier, but your chances of being employed at the end are far greater.
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As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security.
That's about right. My grandpa needed to be 18 and just graduated from high school to get a good job that could support a family. My father needed to have a 4 year degree for the same thing. I needed a degree and a few years of experience before I found a decent job.
At this rate our grandchildren are going to have to be retired before they can get a decent job.
This is America, damnit. Speak Spanish!
I know most CS students see it as "below" them, but most universities have a thriving IT department. Even getting a job at the help desk can be a *huge* boost in your career... a couple years of that, and you've suddenly got 2+ years of experience in the field. You don't have to stay, but it's a good place to start.
The real problem is waiting until you get out of college. IT departments in colleges are much more willing to hire students, because they can count more on the person actually sticking around if he's got two or three years of school left.
When you submit a resume to HR, talk about your 25 years of experience with .NET and 50 years of Java.
Care to back that up? Lying on an H1B application results in a 10-year ban from travelling to the US, so it's not something that anyone would do lightly. And it's not just a HR department checking up on you, it's the INS. And if a company decides to stretch the truth a little in a pitch about the experience of its employees, that's not necessarily the employee's fault.
Or was that just another whiny "the dang foreigners are takin' all our jobs and women" remark? Remember, the only difference between you and a green card holder is that your parents caught an earlier flight or boat.
I hate to tell you this; but it is my observation that you may be looking at temping - A LOT - and holding down an additional part time job just to get situated as a recent graduate. I feel this goes for all fields. Unless you can hold yourself to the minimums (used ride, efficiency apartment, outlet store clothes) until you establish yourself; you may be out of luck.
I think one thing going against you is a lot of adults, regardless of their field, are going back to get their first or even second degree and very likely their Masters' because they are either currently unemployed or very worried about the security of their current job. I know that despite my experience I am ready to start night classes and finish my degree; and I'm far closer to 30 than you are.
That's even with a $28 an hour job - specifically because it is a consultant gig and I won't be making $60 thousand this year or next unless I can roll out of this position and right into the next one... and I'm scared that that won't happen. Yeah, scared. You get a bunch of hard working people afraid they aren't going to make it and they start exercising a lot of options to make themselves viable in a tough market.
On the other hand; there have to be a considerable number of IT jobs that aren't just support or "network engineering/administration" and the like. I know a kid that just finished college with his Comp. Sci. major but he focused on chip design and already has a cushy; if not extremely high paying right off the bat job in a clean room. At least his foot is in the door.
Don't count yourself out yet. Check with your [city/county government] employment service and don't forget your college likely has resources and internship provisions for you. My current contract is in a place I didn't think would be likely to have IT employment opportunities.
Last, forget the "TS SCI/Poly required" jobs, unless you go somewhere that indicates on the announcement they will hire you then clear you or clear you before you are officially hired like the State Department - they still need about 100 IT Management Specialists I think, and thanks to my stupidity a few years ago I won't be one of them right now (nothing criminal; just shouldn't have held a grudge after I left [non-classified] civilian government service). The 'you must have current active clearance' jobs are often most suited for military folks that will very likely never get out of a classified work environment - not that they would want to with some of the salaries they will get paid. Then again, maybe four or eight years in the service (with a college degree I don't think Officer School would be that difficult for you to get into) would do you some good and at least guarantee you a roof and meals; and maybe even help pay off your college bills. There's private consulting, government contracting, then defense contracting - and with this Homeland Security business they want everyone to have some clearance or other - odd that the more people cleared to access information the more likely it is that information will not remain secret, but that is another topic for another day.
Take what you want from this comment and leave the rest; but I wish you the best of luck. Keep your chin up and don't take it too hard that there are probably 4 or 5 thousand former Worldcom, Global Crossing and other IT/telecom employees vying for that same job. Sometimes youth works for you not against you.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
Move back in with your parents... hope they still have a job so they can pay your bills... if you have any. The economy sucks right now... I've been having the same trouble you have... except I blew off college... I took two semesters and was like "this is worthless bullshit", so I ended up working.
I recently lost my job because I would not let my employer screw me (not literly, financially)... So now.. I atleast have the chance to have a love life... I only have car payments, cell phone bills, and other expenses that my parents are kind enough to pay for me.
Tip: Don't worry about it... You will find a job, In the mean time, focus on your love life.
1. Start working on business apps now. Your network battleship independent project may not impress anyone, but a substantial contribution to an open source workflow system might. Re-engineer some club website in J2EE or .NET just to see how it works. Try to get an understanding for the kinds of problems real applications solve.
2. Lots of companies will take a fresh college grad if it's the right kind of person -- they just don't necessarily advertise that on Monster (since they'd be neck-deep in unqualified resumes). Instead, they go to career fairs at selective universities. Try going to one of those or at least getting a list of attending companies. Then submit your resume directly with a cover letter that explains how you're ready to be relevant right away. (see #1)
Remember, the only difference between you and a green card holder is that your parents caught an earlier flight or boat.
Unless you are Blackfoot, Cherokee, etc. but that is an entirely different can of worms. I just sigh, shrug my shoulders and mutter "white people" a lot.
I think we Americans take far too much for granted; and few of us appreciate what we have or are willing to work hard for it. Those of us that do are likely to ride out dips like this and hopefully be better off personally and professionally in the long run.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
"The problem is if you have been living the life style of someone who makes $60K..."
Maybe you should stop living beyond your means then?
Sell the house and buy a cheaper one.
Car payments got you down? Sell it, buy a cheaper one. You can get a good used car for $3000 or less. My '93 Dodge Spirit is worth less than $2000 now. It's old, it's high mileage, BUT IT RUNS and that's all that matters.
All this post amounts to is, "WAAH-WAAH! THE MARKET CORRECTED ITSELF AND I CAN'T KEEP UP MY OLD LIFESTYLE!"
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I finished my honours degree in CS at a major Australian university last week.
.AU; 4 years instead of 3, with a thesis taking up half of the extra year), about 3-4 people have jobs for next year. Maybe 5. Some of these aren't looking (they're going on to do higher degrees), but a lot are.
Out of the ~ 30 people doing honours (which is an extra year in
The big companies are hiring - IBM isn't taking anyone for IT in their graduate program, PwC isn't either, Accenture took about 5-10 people Australia-wide who are graduating now to start work in November 2003 - a year after graduation.
The small companies aren't hiring either - several of them had first level interviews, and then didn't do anything else because they decided not to take graduates.
I (and others) have had several genuine offers from people who would be happy to hire me except for current hiring freezes.
Personally, I have a temporary 4-6 month job starting in a few weeks, and I'm hoping that the job market will have improved by then.
Its not getting people interested in hiring me - I have a good academic record, experience on couple of OSS projects (although that seems to count for less here than the US, I think), an internship with a very large software company (who also currently has a hiring freeze), and so on. The problem is getting people interested who have the ability to actually hire anyone.
I don't like to criticise, but I'd hesitate to recommend your rewritten resume as an example. Since CV writing is quite a personal thing, I'll just list my reservations below with the most serious first, and let anyone else look at both and decide for themselves whether they agree.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security.
So what? Take whatever job you can get that has you working in your chosen field. Don't worry about pay. Don't worry about job security. Take it, work hard, learn a lot and figure that the education and resume fodder are your real goal and any money you happen to make is just gravy.
That's exactly how the IT world worked when I started my career (89-92 or so, ramping up from co-op to full-time positions). Everyone knew that fresh graduates had to go out and get screwed for a couple of years, making peanuts and doing crap jobs until they'd proven themselves. Why? At least for programmers it's a simple fact of life that there are relatively few who are really good at it, and there's virtually no way to separate the wheat from the chaff. So, real-world job experience on the resume was invaluable.
Then came the Internet bubble and everyone "learned" that newly-minted CS graduates from Podunk U with zero experience were worth $80K per year. That was an aberration, and not one that is likely to happen again, because it makes no logical sense.
The job market for IT people isn't that terribly bad right now; it's just slightly slower than normal. To get a job you have to want it, you have to work for it, and you have to suffer a little to build the credentials you need to get it.
So, stop whining, suck it up and take that low-paying, insecure job and prove that you're worth hiring.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
First off, these are my experiences based on looking for a job in 1993 in Boston (which was right before the tech boom, and at the tail end of the early 90s recession). This should be generally good advice, but I can't speak to its effectiveness outside a major metro area.
I lived and worked in Boston for 7 years professionally, never making more than $40k. In fact, I started out at $27k, and usually worked 70+ hours/week for the first 3 or so years. I lived in my own apartment, and paid all my bills without going into debt. It's not really that hard, you just have to be careful and put off anything not completely necessary (like buying a new car, going on major vacations, good furniture, et al), and consider your first couple of years as an apprenticeship. Learn how businesses are run, and suck up all the experience you can. That will give you much better leverage to move upwards around 2006 or so, to a job with less hours and probably twice the pay you started with in 2003. And employers will be willing to pay it then, as you've proven yourself. 10 years after graduation, I now make well north of $100k, and consider it the payoff for being overworked/underpaid for much of my 20s.
Best of luck.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
Sounds like you are in the condition many students find themselves in. A degree in hand, no (or minimal) experience, and all doors closed to you.
How do you get experience, to get that job?
Well the answer to that question is around every community. Charities! Donate you skills and time to local non-profit ventures. Yes, it doesn't pay (much), but experience comes with its own set of perks and benefits.
There are many charities out there. From helping with a politcal campaign, to church based, to drug rehab. Each requires skills that employers are seeking and usually the charities are willing to accept all help offered. Charity work will gain you your experience, help the community, and provide valuable networking.
I have recommended students try this approach for over 15 years and have had a 100% placement rate in well paying positions many of which resulted directly from the networkign gained in the charity work.
Jobs are out there, you just need to be creative to capture them.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.