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Ogg/Vorbis on Palm OS

Posted by michael on from the music-on-the-go dept.

loshwomp writes "We have built an audio player for Palm OS, and a public beta is available now. The beta includes support for Ogg/Vorbis audio, and a future beta will include plug-ins for more formats, as well as the plug-in SDK itself."

30 of 175 comments (clear)

  1. processor intensive? by absurdhero · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Are Palms high performance or has the OGG/Vorbis decoder gotten a lot less processor intensive, I wonder?

    1. Re:processor intensive? by millette · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are two answers to your question. First, the new Palm OS v5 was designed to run on much more powerfull processors. Second, there was a problem for a while with ogg not having a integer only decoder algo. Lots of pdas aren't equipped with a floating point unit, so that was a real show stopper. Well, not anymore, since the integer version of the decoder is now also available with an open license.

    2. Re:processor intensive? by joe_bruin · · Score: 4, Informative

      any jackass could have done this port in, oh, 5 minutes.

      the palm tungsten t uses a texas instruments omap cpu. the omap is not just an arm. it is an arm-9 and c5500 dsp core on one die (what they call a dual-core). they share memory and dma channels and a special message-passing bridge, which makes it much easier to program and debug.
      an omap can decode mpeg 2 at 640x480 at 30 frames per second. the arm 9 itself is fast enough to run the ogg tremor integer decoder without the dsp (i've seen it run on an arm-7 @74mhz, although it eats the entire cpu on that one).

      the only thing it needed was user interface/io code and recompiling the tremor libraries. this is not much of a story, as any palm programmer could have trivially done this port.

    3. Re:processor intensive? by g4dget · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but it's hard to write native ARM code or native DSP code: PalmOS5 runs all applications as interpreted 68000 code; the best you can do (with a lot of work) is link in some assembly routines.

    4. Re:processor intensive? by ardiri · · Score: 4, Informative

      PceNativeCall()

      you might want to check your documentation again. we have successfully written a number of native ARM code chunks in our palmos applications.

  2. just think... by carpe_noctem · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now I can listen to Beethoven's 9th Symphony for 24 straight hours on my palm. woot.

    --
    "Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
  3. Lots of Battery Time by Mirell · · Score: 4, Funny

    Noting the info on the page: 4-5 hours typical battery life on a full charge.

    Frame rate: 1, maybe two per minute.
    Color: Black. White is optional.
    Sound: Screeching Square Waves

    --
    We have so much time, and so little to do - strike that! Reverse it. Tryn Mirell
  4. um. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can you really fit that much music on a palm?

    I haven't looked at Palms in a couple years. How much storage space does your average palmOS machine contain these days? Anyone familiar with the topic want to give some approximate numbers?

    1. Re:um. by p00kiethebear · · Score: 5, Informative

      if your palm uses smartmedia or compact flash cards than you can store up to a gig of music depending on how much money your willing to shell out. more info here

      --
      The Blade Itself
    2. Re:um. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The memory space in palms, even from the early days, was based on 'cards'. The memory built into the palm unit is all addressed as card 0 (even though you could not remove this 'card' of memory without some soldering!) Palm did this because they envisioned a day when additional memory or other resources would be added to a palm.

      With the 500 series, that day finally came. With the 500 seris, an additional card slot is available, card 1. (The same holds for the *VASTLY* superior Sony Clies, which use their memory stick technology.)

      These cards in the M500-series can be up to about 32MB for the expensive ones. A recent break through in memory production might double this. (This is the same old story about memory!)

      For the clie line, the memory stick cards can hold up to 128 MB. This of course will double in a short while.

      This compares with about 16 MB max on card 0 for the M500 and clie NX series. Why is memory so limited on card 0? Well, it's all about battery life. The reason people like palm so much is that they sip batteries (or at least used to before color screens). You used to be able to go weeks between recharging. Even with color screens, you can go a week or so before a recharge becomes critical.

      Since palms use trickle DRAM to keep memory fresh, 16MB of memory means that you need to keep draining the battery EVEN WHEN THE UNIT IS TURNED OFF. (The processor, however, is not using significant power in sleep or doze mode.) Not much power is used, but it adds up. Now, if you had 128MB of ram in a palm unit, all with trickle DRAM, the unit would have a fraction of its current battery life--enough to make the device a real nuisance! Some people might like much memory, but they probably would be using their battery to refresh unallocated parts of memory anyway.

      So, palms tends to have small memory card 0, and have long battery life. Palm made the judgment that people need about 16MB. Sony came to the same conclusion. Somewhere, the marketing people talked to the engineers and UI folks about how much memory is needed, how often recharges would be needed, etc. etc. In fact, Palm is so strict about this that for the Zire (their $99 'entry' palm), they downgraded the memory to just 2MB (what they estimate you'll need for its intended uses) and nixed the color screens. The result: a unit that guards Palm's tail end market from competition from the cheapo Franklin pda-units.

      Is this important? It is for many people. I know plenty of friends who own an iPaq, and they can only use the device full-out for part of a day. (If you are chained to an outlet, why not just cary a small vaio or something?)

      So, yes, there's not much dram on a palm unit. But, there are non-volatile memory cards available, and they're getting cheaper.

      That being said, it should be noted that palm is, in my opinion, a f*cked company. They've lost market share, from 90% to 50% and falling. And now, there's actually competition from many players. They actually did a _reverse_ stock split to avoid delisting.

      Plus, they *ROYALLY* pissed people off with the M505-->M515 bug, and by failing to issue a recall on the 505s. Palm's only chance, in my opinion, is in the Palm OS 6. They promise that Palm OS6 will be for Palm what OSX is for Apple--revolutionary.

      If it's not, they've got jack sh*t to offer, and will have to compete with Microsoft. They're toast!! Oh, one more thing. Why does *every* damn story have to link to even the most basic URL. Like when the link to a story in the Register, there's a link to the story.... and in case you have bricks for brains, they also have a bonus link to the Register home page. Moronic.

      Ok, my pizza is finally here. I'm done babbling.

  5. OK... by Dr.+Bent · · Score: 4, Funny

    but does it support ogg? Otherwise I don't...oh wait....

  6. License? Source? by FattMattP · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What is the license? Where is the source code? This isn't freshmeat.net so I hope there's something more significant than just a free ad for proprietary software.

    --
    Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
  7. oh great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now I can listen to AC/DC on my PalmOS device's crappy little speaker...

    Just what I wanted...

  8. IN SOVIET RUSSIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    My comrade is named Ogg Vorbis!

  9. I can't resist saying... by Kunta+Kinte · · Score: 5, Informative
    that zaurus has had this for a while now ( also here ).

    but it's still good to see it on the palm as well.

    --
    Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
  10. Re:If it runs on a Palm... by Uller-RM · · Score: 5, Informative

    The main stumbling block to Vorbis implementations was that the reference decoder was floating point intensive, whereas MPEG decoding can be done with mostly integers. However, there's now the "Tremor" reference decoder which uses purely integer math.

    It's not really that difficult of a format. The only real oddity is that you have to buffer in the first few Ogg pages quickly in order to set up the codebook and other Vorbis headers, whereas MPEG uses discrete frames; but, once you've got the headers parsed, Vorbis is a relatively straightforward format.

  11. Okay, who are you really? by Tsar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're advertising this on Slashdot as a Palm OS app, but admit that it only runs currently on the Tungsten T. Your website only has one page, with no detail as to whether your product is open source or not. I can't find info about you or your application anywhere, even at your personal site, where you host your "free ogeLib Palm OS library". Who are you, is this for real, and how did you get it posted on the main page of Slashdot?

    As for my fellow readers, has anyone actually downloaded and run this app?

    1. Re:Okay, who are you really? by loshwomp · · Score: 5, Informative
      Who are you, is this for real, and how did you get it posted on the main page of Slashdot?

      Three fair questions. Answers, respectively, are "a small collection of Palm OS and Vorbis enthusiasts", "yes", and "by submitting it here".

      Free bonus information:

      • No, it's not open source, although some of the as-yet-unreleased plug-ins will be
      • The app itself is free as in beer (donations welcome, but let's wait until we're past beta first, if that's okay)
      • It only runs on the Tungsten at the moment because it requires ARM hardware, and thus far Sony hasn't provided the audio API for the new NX Clies
  12. Re:CPU speeds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    But as the author's website clearly states, this program is intended for Palm Tungsten T (PalmOS5) devices. The Tungsten T utilizes a 175mhz (clocked down to 145mhz) enhanced ARM-based CPU called the OMAP from Texas Instruments (I believe), and compares to a PocketPC device running PocketPC2002 on a 200mhz StronARM or 400mhz XScale processor.

    It is plenty good for more than "spoken word stuff" ;)

  13. But does it play mp3's? by bobobobo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ogg/Vorbis and all is great. But what I want to know is, can it play mp3's? :p

  14. Re:Quik Question... Kinda OT, but who cares =/ by obi · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you mean reencoding from the original source (CD's) to ogg, well then ogg should be as good or better than mp3's.

    If you mean reencoding your mp3's to ogg's, well then you're going to degrade them by a huge amount. The artifacts you had from the mp3 encoding won't magically dissapear just because you reencode to ogg - you lose information with every pass. So in the best case you'll have lost all the info that the mp3 and the ogg encoding throws away. But it's probably going to be even worse than that.

    It's taking a jpeg and compressing it again in your favourite photo editor. It'll look like shit.

    So, if you do it, be aware of it. And don't give those oggs to other people, since that way they'll get the impression that oggs sound intrinsically worse than mp3's.

  15. Why no Clie support? by AnimalSnf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As one of many Clie owners (N760C) that visited that page, I am curious as to why I need to email some guy at Sony to be able to use this player. As far as I understand programs written for Palm 5 today are still compiled for RISC ISA, and the sound API on Clies is documented, so what's the holdup?

  16. Please, enough already: Check out the link! by 0ptimus · · Score: 5, Informative

    Let's clear up some things to stop the inundation of amazingly stupid posts. This software DOES NOT work on Palm's running OS 4 or below. It only runs on the new Tungsten T, which uses a 200Mhz ARM processor, and runs OS 5.0. The Tungsten T also includes expansion for memory cards, and has a headphone jack, making it quite useful for music. In fact, Palm is expected to release some sort of MP3 player for the device, but did not include one because it was not something "the target audience wanted."

    So please no more of the "wow, decoding music with a 33Mhz processor would never work," "wow, I can hold two songs in my 8MB of RAM," etc., etc. comments. You are right, the old Palms WILL NEVER play music files; it is simply infeasible.

    1. Re:Please, enough already: Check out the link! by Skuto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >So please no more of the "wow, decoding music
      >with a 33Mhz processor would never work," "wow,
      >I can hold two songs in my 8MB of RAM," etc.,
      >etc. comments. You are right, the old Palms WILL
      >NEVER play music files; it is simply infeasible.

      Actually, I'm not so convinced.

      The older Palms had shitty sound hardware, but it is possible to play at least WAV files on them. The quality sucks major, but it works nevertheless.

      Disk space is also not a problem. Standard Vorbis will get down to 8kbps, which put quite a bit of files in 8M. I have written prototypes of new Vorbis encoders that will go down to 4kbps mono with pretty acceptable quality. This gets you a full album in 2M. Three albums at least on a 8M Palm.

      The big issue is the CPU. Old Palms have a 33Mhz 68k processor. All that I have seen could be overclocked without risk to at least 45Mhz, and since we're pushing the limits of the hardware anyway, let that make us our target.

      The question is if a 45Mhz 68k can decode a 6-8khz sample rate mono Vorbis 1.0 file. We're not looking for full Vorbis 1.0 compatibility remember, we just want to play those files, which have significantly less hardware demands than for example an 128k stereo 44khz Ogg. Since we're not going to need 16bits output either, you can make compromises in the decoder trading quality for speed. I have no idea if it is possible to decode Vorbis in this conditions, but I certainly don't think the answer is an 'obviously not' and I am currently investigating it.

      --
      GCP

  17. Of course they can! by Rob+Simpson · · Score: 3, Funny
    As long as music files are .wav

    With a good memory card (like the 128meg one I use for medical references) and a good speaker (like my Handera 330's) or an earphone jack, there isn't any problem at all.

    Of course, one would be able to store a heck of a lot more with a processor fast enough to decode compressed music, but it and the colour screen the thing would inevitably have would sap the battery life so much that it would be "infeasible" to finish playing all those music files.

  18. Re:Lets see here by IHateEverybody · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you'd actually folow the link and read the page, you'd see that the application is made for the Tungsten T and reads the files off expansion cards. So it will run on the Tungsten (which has 16MB of RAM), read ogg files off SD expansion cards (which come in sizes up to 128MB), and you can use headphones.

    --
    Does this .sig make my butt look big?
  19. Yes, 1.0 is much better by Compact+Dick · · Score: 3, Informative

    Does anyone...know if there have been really improvements made? I last checked in RC3, and the sound quality was _definitely_ worse than MP3 at high bitrates.

    Ogg 1.0 contains many improvements over RC3, not only in terms of quality but speed. The hi-fi forum hydrogenaudio.org has a running poll which shows most Ogg users encode at -q 6. This averages out at ~192 kbps and generally is indistinguishable from the original [unless you are of the monster-ear audiophile species.] You certainly won't miss anything with your sound setup.

    Get the optimised win32 binaries [and OggdropXPd] from John33's website.
    --
    Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
  20. Re:Expansion card? by ardiri · · Score: 4, Insightful

    palm doesn't have an "internal" file system. everything is stored as a resource or record database. the data chunk is limited to 64k. there are API's available that allow filestreaming, which, pretty much do 'internal management' of your data in 4k record chunks :) a good programmer would support filestreaming .pdb files - i have written a number of utilities to convert from a normal file -> .pdb filestreaming.

  21. Re:If it runs on a Palm... by Uller-RM · · Score: 3, Informative

    In theory, once you've got a floating-point PCM or ADPCM value, you can cast that out to any precision of integer you want -- the same blackbox decoder would work whether you were creating an 8-bit signal for a basic DSP or a 24-bit signal for a studio-quality DAC. (The latter is particularly relevant since Ogg can support more than two channels and can chain multiple segments in a single Ogg bitstream.) In theory you could even design a DAC to directly accept an IEEE 724 floating point number.

    Decoding using the FP decoder and casting to, say, 16bit unsigned bigendian, should sound no different than decoding to the same point using Tremor. I haven't looked at any comparisons of algorithmic complexity for the two decoders, since the one project I'm working that uses Vorbis is using libvorbisfile.

    (Or rather, the Mac OS X Framework version of it... the OSX-specific source in CVS is broken at present, but you can coax it into compiling with a bit of elbow grease. It also needs to have a Mac-specific gcc flag added to change the base address for the relocation table to allow prelinking. If anyone out there from vorbis.com is reading this, take those UNIX libs off the damned download page and get the Frameworks working -- most Mac users are NOT mentally equipped to su root and copy a bunch of .sos into /usr/lib!!)

  22. No. Read previous posts by haloscan · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is for Palm OS 5 and currently is targeted for the only OS 5 PDA out right now--the Tungsten. The Tungsten has a 175Mhz processor and can handle mp3s and OGG fine.